Adding a second bilge pump?

[Tony1]

24 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

Could you not pipe it from the bottom of the step back,  Do you have your Lithium's as a hybrid system, if so doesn't your solar connect to both or is your pump on you engine start battery?

 

Yes mine is a hybrid system, but I have a B2B in between the lead acids and the lithiums, so nothing can feed back through that to charge the lithiums. 

 

My idea at the moment is to put in a switch so that I can divert the output charge from one of the MPPTs back to the engine starter battery. I'm not sure its really needed, since the lead acid batteries still seem ok just getting engine charge, but if there was ever a serious leak into the engine bilge and I was not on board, the extra power from the solar might keep the bilge pump going for longer than an ageing lead acid battery on its own. 

 

 

[Alan de Enfield]

Many years ago (around the millenium) we bought a very nice NB, that 'looked almost new' and indeed it was.

 

It was competitively priced so started giving it a good looking-at to find that in fact it was sunk-recovered, and long story short ..................

 

It had the same recessed steps leading down into the cabin with a drain hole at the bottom of the steps.

This drain hole had got blocked by a couple of leaves (thats all it took) meaning that the rain ran down the steps filling up the foot well until it overflowed the step and started filling the backend of the boat.

The back end of the boat went down, the engine was 'drowned' but had been restarted and flushed.

 

The starter motor and alternator were siezed (rusted ?) up and inoperable.

 

Further forward, the galley still had the plastic protection on the cooker door, new (wrapped) pots and pans were in the cupboard, platic wrpa on the seat cushions and the boat was virtually unused.

 

Story is owner had bought the boat, moored it up and left it over Winter having never actually used it to cruise anywhere.

 

We bought it, cleaned it up, new carpet, alternator and starter motor and solved the problem of water going down the steps by fitting a 'Pram Cover'.

Never had a wet bilge again, and gave us the benefit of an extra 'room' for wet clothes, drying the Dog etc etc.

 

There is no other practical way to ovecome the poor design of external steps down into the cabin.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 13, 2023 by Alan de Enfield

[magnetman]

Is the back door the main entry to the boat? One of my boats has an open "cruiser stern" type of deck but I use the front door to go in and out. It doesn't have the external steps. I would not like that. 

 

My solution for stopping rain water doing over the deck drains was to get a tarpaulin made in a slight rhomboid shape and secure it across the deck sloping down to the back with trampoline springs and a central ridge pole. This sheds the water to the side where it can run off. 

 

Not that practical if the door is permanently in use but if it isn't and you mostly use the front door then it may be worth considering. Door can still be used as emergency exit. 

[Tony1]

16 minutes ago, Ewan123 said:

Would it not be easier to just run a pipe from the steps drain hole straight to the main bilge sump? Perhaps fixed at a few points on its way around the engine bay to maintain a reasonable angle to drain. I've got the same sump at the stern in our Liverpool Boat and just accept that it will never really be fully dry, but at least it's only a very small section that remains wet. A plastic tub sat on the engine bay floor might well just hold enough moisture under it to maintain a rusty patch anyway.

 

To be honest that's a decent idea and in fact its decent first step, and its better than me manually emptying the water container every few days. 

But if I can stop rainwater and other water ingress from various sources, and stop it sloshing on the floor of the engine bay, I can keep even the sump dry for most of the time, which seems like a good idea. 

 

There is the issue as Tony mentions which is leaves and small debris clogging the drain under the step, and more so because this sort of wind blown debris naturally collects down on the bottom step, and it does gradually block the drain. 

Blocking that drain is only a serious problem if I'm not on the boat for a week or so during a rainy Autumn, with tons of leaves coming onto the stern. But it does happen, in fact it happened a month or two ago. One morning I found an inch or more of water sloshing in the bottom step, and it was the drain blocked by leaves. 

If I had a fabric stern cover that would solve most of it, but another safeguard might be to put some kind mesh/strainer cylinder over the drain hole, long enough that the top half of it will always be clear of debris and thus allow drainage. The mesh would then need protection from stamping feet, but that's not too hard.. 

 

I think a mesh or strainer is a good idea for these step drains regardless of whether you catch the water underneath, because that step overflowing into the cabin could get very messy. 

[Tony1]

2 minutes ago, magnetman said:

Is the back door the main entry to the boat? One of my boats has an open "cruiser stern" type of deck but I use the front door to go in and out. It doesn't have the external steps. I would not like that. 

 

My solution for stopping rain water doing over the deck drains was to get a tarpaulin made in a slight rhomboid shape and secure it across the deck sloping down to the back with trampoline springs and a central ridge pole. This sheds the water to the side where it can run off. 

 

Not that practical if the door is permanently in use but if it isn't and you mostly use the front door then it may be worth considering. Door can still be used as emergency exit. 

 

Yes, the stern door is the main entry point, and is in constant use.

I would use a cover of that sort when I was away from the boat for a while and I knew it was going to rain persistently. 

Even a small fabric or tarp coming down from above the door and covering just the steps would be better than nothing, as it would divert most of the rain onto the deck and then out of deck drain holes.

 

 

[Alan de Enfield]

11 minutes ago, Tony1 said:

but another safeguard might be to put some kind mesh/strainer cylinder over the drain hole, long enough that the top half of it will always be clear of debris and thus allow drainage. The mesh would then need protection from stamping feet, but that's not too hard.. 

 

I think a mesh or strainer is a good idea for these step drains regardless of whether you catch the water underneath, because that step overflowing into the cabin could get very messy. 

 

 

IT won't work.

I've tried it on our current cruiser where the 'drain' run thru the side-deck and round an angle and out of the side of the hull.

 

The mesh will simply get clogged up with debris, the water level will get higher, than the mesh will get clogged and the water will get higher .........................

Eventually the water will just pour over the step into you back cabin.

 

If anyone was to ask for advice before buying a boat with external steps I'd always say 'don't do it unless you fit a pram-hood.

Edited January 13, 2023 by Alan de Enfield

[Tony Brooks]

4 minutes ago, Tony1 said:

think a mesh or strainer is a good idea for these step drains regardless of whether you catch the water underneath, because that step overflowing into the cabin could get very messy. 

 

I don't. Remember it is a step so sooner or later the cylinder will get stepped on and squashed, I think that will block faster than a hole or hole and hose.

[Tracy D'arth]

2 hours ago, robtheplod said:

Would it not be easier/cheaper possibly to focus on stopping the water getting in?

Not possible with the design of the stem unfortunately.

 

But why not just pipe the step drain to the existing bilge pump without another pump? I have done this with several L'Poo hulls.

[Tony1]

 

Tony and Alan, I can see from this that there is no way to permanently stop one of these lower steps from blocking and flooding, if the boat is left alone for a few weeks in heavy rain/Autumn etc- other than a fabric cover over the stern deck to keep the leaves and debris out that cause the blockage.

I very seldom leave the boat unattended, but who knows- there might be a medical emergency, or some other event that takes me away, and it would be reassuring to know that the boat was not at risk of flooding if left alone in those weather conditions.  

 

 

 

 

[Alan de Enfield]

Just now, Tony1 said:

 

Tony and Alan, I can see from this that there is no way to permanently stop one of these lower steps from blocking and flooding, if the boat is left alone for a few weeks in heavy rain/Autumn etc- other than a fabric cover over the stern deck to keep the leaves and debris out that cause the blockage.

I very seldom leave the boat unattended, but who knows- there might be a medical emergency, or some other event that takes me away, and it would be reassuring to know that the boat was not at risk of flooding if left alone in those weather conditions.  

 

 

 

 

 

The way I have overcome the problem on my crusier is to fit 2" scupper drains - they are big enough not to get blocked by the leaves and acorns from the Oak tress that surround our Marina.

 

You could do something similar and then pipe it into the 'main bilge' where your bilge pump is operational.

 

Something like this - available with a 'grate' or just an open 'hole'.

 

 

[David Mack]

6 minutes ago, Tony1 said:

 

Tony and Alan, I can see from this that there is no way to permanently stop one of these lower steps from blocking and flooding, if the boat is left alone for a few weeks in heavy rain/Autumn etc- other than a fabric cover over the stern deck to keep the leaves and debris out that cause the blockage.

I very seldom leave the boat unattended, but who knows- there might be a medical emergency, or some other event that takes me away, and it would be reassuring to know that the boat was not at risk of flooding if left alone in those weather conditions. 

Would it not be better to put a large hole in the side of the bottom step, so that any water drains straight into the bilge (or a tray beneath fitted with its own bilge pump). A large hole is less likely to get blocked by leaves etc, and if the boat is left unattended for a long time then the water will go into the bilge where it does little harm compared to it overflowing the door threshold and flooding the back of the cabin.

[Tony1]

9 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:

Not possible with the design of the stem unfortunately.

 

But why not just pipe the step drain to the existing bilge pump without another pump? I have done this with several L'Poo hulls.

 

Thanks Tracy, and Ewan also suggested that. I think its a good idea and one I can do as soon as I get hold of some tubing, whereas the second bilge pump will have to wait until I next meet up with my friendly electrician in a few weeks. 

 

Clearly the real risk in this situation is leaves etc blocking the drain hole and flooding the step, so a fabric cover for those steps is something I need to sort out. 

 

[Ewan123]

51 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

See my comment about muck being washed through the hole in the step. I think the hose would probably block, even a large bore one eventually. It will also require welding a pipe stub under the step or fitting a skin fitting. In the later case water would pool on the stem because of the skin fitting flange,

Good point

[Tony1]

12 minutes ago, David Mack said:

Would it not be better to put a large hole in the side of the bottom step, so that any water drains straight into the bilge (or a tray beneath fitted with its own bilge pump). A large hole is less likely to get blocked by leaves etc, and if the boat is left unattended for a long time then the water will go into the bilge where it does little harm compared to it overflowing the door threshold and flooding the back of the cabin.

 

Thanks David,  I think drilling out the drain hole would have the benefit of reducing the risk of clogging, or least slowing the process down, but even a three inch wide hole will eventually get clogged in Autumn, so a cover for the steps is the higher priority.  

Also, the problem with drilling out the drain hole is that I'll lose the little drain pipe underneath it, and its that pipe I can use to guide the water - whether through a tube, or into a funnel etc.

Without the drain pipe, some of the water could run along the underneath surface of the step, and be more difficult to trap.

If I could drill out it out and then fit a wider drain tube that would be good, but I do need a tube. There are probably skin fittings that I use as a wide drain hole. I could drill and tap and screw a wider fitting into place, with a bit a sikaflex to help stop water leaks around the edges. 

 

None of it is a serious problem as long as I dont leave the boat alone for a few weeks in Autumn, but you never know when you might dragged away by a medical crisis, so I think it would be better to have the safety measures in place, just in case. 

 

ETA- I've just noticed Tony's point- if a wider skin fitting was used to provide a drain pipe from the hole, water would pool on the step, up to the height of the flange. 

That said, water does pool in there to a few mm anyway, the drain process is not very efficient as the boat stays level much of the time.  

 

Edited January 13, 2023 by Tony1

[Tracy D'arth]

2 minutes ago, Tony1 said:

 

Thanks David,  I think drilling out the drain hole would have the benefit of reducing the risk of clogging, or least slowing the process down, but even a three inch wide hole will eventually get clogged in Autumn, so a cover for the steps is the higher priority.  

Also, the problem with drilling out the drain hole is that I'll lose the little drain pipe underneath it, and its that pipe I can use to guide the water - whether through a tube, or into a funnel etc.

Without the drain pipe, some of the water could run along the underneath surface of the step, and be more difficult to trap.

If I could drill out it out and then fit a wider drain tube that would be good, but I do need a tube. There are probably skin fittings that I use as a wide drain hole. I could drill and tap and screw a wider fitting into place, with a bit a sikaflex to help stop water leaks around the edges. 

 

None of it is a serious problem as long as I dont leave the boat alone for a few weeks in Autumn, but you never know when you might dragged away by a medical crisis, so I think it would be better to have the safety measures in place, just in case. 

 

Half a plastic milk crate dropped upside down into the well will stop the leaves blocking the hole.

[Tony1]

 

Well thanks everyone for your advice and thoughts on this. 

There is a quick fix I can do now, which is divert the drain into the bilge pump sump. 

But it has highlighted a more serious issue of stopping the drain from clogging if an unforeseen even should take me away from the boat for a few weeks. 

I wasn't focused on this in my original question, although I knew it was an issue- but when you see a boat actually sunk by it as per Alan's photo, it does bring home the need to get something in place sooner rather than later, because although its unlikely, none of us know for sure when an unforeseen issue might force us to leave the boat unattended for weeks on end. 

 

Edited January 13, 2023 by Tony1

[ditchcrawler]

20 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:

Half a plastic milk crate dropped upside down into the well will stop the leaves blocking the hole.

Or even a brush like I have in my gutters at home.

[Tony Brooks]

24 minutes ago, Tony1 said:

Thanks David,  I think drilling out the drain hole would have the benefit of reducing the risk of clogging, or least slowing the process down, but even a three inch wide hole will eventually get clogged in Autumn, so a cover for the steps is the higher priority. 

 

I think that will not happen, My step has a small (say 3/8 drain) hole in one corner that was blocked when I got the boat but someone had cut a larger (say 1.5") hole in the middle of the step. It did not block. In my case the tread in the step had bowed down slight;/ly through use so I got no drips running under the step. In fact if there was no bow I would have been tempted to wield the mooring hammer.

[magnetman]

It might be worth considering a Bimini. You can get them quite cheap. They look terrible but will stop some rain and leaves. Not all but some. 

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/254713712489

 

Obviously would need careful measuring and fixtures. There all sorts of different sizes. This one is £52.50 UK stock item. 

 

A half way house to a full pram hood (which would cost a LOT more) 

 

[Alan de Enfield]

14 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

Or even a brush like I have in my gutters at home.

 

It was suggested to me that I use a 'bottle brush' poked down the hole to stop leaves, but alow water to dribble down.

 

Stupid idea - I tried, it but because the 'effective' hole was now so much smaller it took one leaf to block it instead of 2 or 3 leaves.

[magnetman]

What are those things called? Something like a drainpipe pineapple. 

 

Will check on Google. 

Just now, Alan de Enfield said:

 

It was suggested to me that I use a 'bottle brush' poked down the hole to stop leaves, but alow water to dribble down.

 

Stupid idea - I tried, it but because the 'effective' hole was now so much smaller it took one leaf to block it instead of 2 or 3 leaves.

Isn't the idea that you pull it out every day to clean it?

What you could do is put a small deep bucket (76mm brass shell casing) in a hole and have a hole in the bucket near the top with pipe to the stern bilge

In theory the rubbish and dirt would stay at the bottom but water once high enough could flow out the side hole. 

[Alan de Enfield]

1 minute ago, magnetman said:

Isn't the idea that you pull it out every day to clean it?

 

Fine if you are on the boat every day - but if you are, then cleaning a couple of leaves out is not a problem anyway.

 

For us 'holiday boaters' it can be several weeks / months between visits - certainly from October to April, there can be long periods between visits - and - that is generally the time for the worst weather.

[magnetman]

Full well stretched and tensioned cover over the whole deck seems the answer if you are leaving the boat alone for more than a couple of weeks. 

[Tony1]

10 minutes ago, magnetman said:

It might be worth considering a Bimini. You can get them quite cheap. They look terrible but will stop some rain and leaves. Not all but some. 

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/254713712489

 

Obviously would need careful measuring and fixtures. There all sorts of different sizes. This one is £52.50 UK stock item. 

 

A half way house to a full pram hood (which would cost a LOT more) 

 

 

I think one of these things is a cracking idea in its own right if it can be made to fit ok- for both heatwaves and for very rainy days- and cheap as chips too.

The price of custom made pram hoods is such that I dont even give one a serious thought. 

 

For covering the steps I'm not sure how good it would be though- the leaves would easily blow in around and underneath it- I suspect a cover over the steps themselves would be a decent quick fix, and wouldn't even have to be a close fit.

Pending a full tarp cover for the whole stern..

 

 

Edited January 13, 2023 by Tony1

[magnetman]

 

 

I find the design dodgy. I know it gives you a higher door but if you get to the point of having problems getting in small doorways perhaps this is the moment to consider not living on a boat. 

 

It is as a compromise which as Alan de Enfield pointed out above can actually sink the boat ! Well dodgy. 

 

 

 

I don't mean to sound flippant it just comes naturally.