Adding a second bilge pump?

[Tony1]

21 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

I think that will not happen, My step has a small (say 3/8 drain) hole in one corner that was blocked when I got the boat but someone had cut a larger (say 1.5") hole in the middle of the step. It did not block. In my case the tread in the step had bowed down slight;/ly through use so I got no drips running under the step. In fact if there was no bow I would have been tempted to wield the mooring hammer.

 

If I was focused purely on the safety aspect and preventing sinking, I think a 2 inch hole in the step would be good, with a plastic tray underneath it.

My thinking is that the leaves would fall through and sink to the bottom of the tray, and the overspill from the tray would just be water, which would eventually find its way to the bilge sump at the back. 

That would have the benefit of reducing the risk of the bilge pump itself being blocked by leaves. 

Putting a mesh or bars over the hole would reduce the leaves falling through, but it would perhaps block more quickly than if it was wide open. 

I'm not sure where the best compromise is within all these different ideas, but I don't really like allowing water to overspill from a catchment tray and find its way to the bilge sump. 

Either way I think a good start would be a fabric cover for the steps themselves to stop most of the leaves. It would be quick to fix it in place if I had to leave in a hurry, and if I couldn't for some reason, it would be easy to do if I had to ask someone else to put it on for me afterwards.  

  

 

[magnetman]

Drainpipe wire balloon. Thats the one.

 

I think I might have a new friend coming in the post. Looks like a nice little character to talk to. 

[magnetman]

8 minutes ago, Tony1 said:

 

If I was focused purely on the safety aspect and preventing sinking, I think a 2 inch hole in the step would be good, with a plastic tray underneath it.

My thinking is that the leaves would fall through and sink to the bottom of the tray, and the overspill from the tray would just be water, which would eventually find its way to the bilge sump at the back. 

That would have the benefit of reducing the risk of the bilge pump itself being blocked by leaves. 

Putting a mesh or bars over the hole would reduce the leaves falling through, but it would perhaps block more quickly than if it was wide open. 

I'm not sure where the best compromise is within all these different ideas, but I don't really like allowing water to overspill from a catchment tray and find its way to the bilge sump. 

 

Reverse the position of the water and the leaves. Put a tray in there with something like a disposable barbecue mesh propped up to say 2 inches. Leaves stay on top water drains down and you put a whale SuperSub bilge pump in there to clear the water. 

[Tony1]

18 minutes ago, magnetman said:

 

 

I find the design dodgy. I know it gives you a higher door but if you get to the point of having problems getting in small doorways perhaps this is the moment to consider not living on a boat. 

 

It is as a compromise which as Alan de Enfield pointed out above can actually sink the boat ! Well dodgy. 

 

 

 

I don't mean to sound flippant it just comes naturally. 

 

I would bet that the boats with these side-steps all come as standard with a stern cover to address the risk of flooding steps, as did my boat originally. 

The problem only arises when you leave the boat unattended for a couple of weeks in the Autumn and without the stern cover on- that seems to be sinking scenario. 

Its not a common design, and it does seem unnecessarily risky, and tbh I'd rather have a normal stern hatch. 

But as long as I get some sort of cover sorted out for when I leave the boat, it should be fine. 

 

 

 

[Tony Brooks]

21 minutes ago, Tony1 said:

 

I would bet that the boats with these side-steps all come as standard with a stern cover to address the risk of flooding steps, as did my boat originally. 

The problem only arises when you leave the boat unattended for a couple of weeks in the Autumn and without the stern cover on- that seems to be sinking scenario. 

Its not a common design, and it does seem unnecessarily risky, and tbh I'd rather have a normal stern hatch. 

But as long as I get some sort of cover sorted out for when I leave the boat, it should be fine. 

 

 

I know mine did not. Hire boats tend not to be so equipped. I also know that over the 20 odd years we had it I could leave it for two to three weeks without the bilge water getting above the engine beds. I would often ;leave it for a month at a time. However if there was a period of prolonged heavy rain`I would make s special visit but never found anything to worry me bilge water wise.

[Tony1]

36 minutes ago, magnetman said:

Reverse the position of the water and the leaves. Put a tray in there with something like a disposable barbecue mesh propped up to say 2 inches. Leaves stay on top water drains down and you put a whale SuperSub bilge pump in there to clear the water. 

 

Its very interesting how I started off being concerned with rust on the floor of engine bay, but the issues raised since then have led to the much more pressing concern of preventing drain blockage by leaves, if the boat is left unattended. 

 

I think both issues can be addressed, within reason. A fabric cover is clearly the most effective measure, and can be fitted quickly when I leave the boat for a few days or more. 

 

In terms of managing drainage from the deck and steps when I'm on board, there are a lot of potential options and good ideas here, and I need to ponder on them for a bit, and take some measurements under the steps- its a narrow and awkward space for a water catchment container, and I only just got a 10 litre water container into there. 

 

I guess where I'm at now is that I'm wondering just how much of these risks I should take seriously into account when draining the step. 

Should I set it up so that its still safe from flooding even if I were to have an accident while shopping, and not even get back to boat to put a fabric over on- and then not return for a month? I could probably design it such that it would be safe enough to avoid flooding for a month, but I'm not sure I need to do that.

 

Alternatively, I could just assume that the fabric cover will always be put in place if the boat is being left unattended, and then design the step drainage with no serious regard for addressing the leaf blockage and  flooding risks, so that it is only focused on keeping the bilge floor dry. 

 

Or somewhere in between those two assumptions maybe. There are so many potential options people have suggested, I need to step back and ponder them for a bit before deciding. 

 

 

Edited January 13, 2023 by Tony1

[Tony Brooks]

With decent solar charging I would expect a decent quality automatic bilge pump would reduce the sinking danger to exceptionally low, especially if you trapped the debris from the step before they got into the bilge. I think  rusting is a very minor problem,  especially if you clean, treat and paint it, repainting every few years.

[magnetman]

Another way of preventing the sinking problem is to raise the height of the bottom of the door cutout. 

 

Obviiusly this is a bit extreme but it is this cutout in what should otherwise be a watertight bulkhead between engine bay and cabin which is the actual problem. On a properly designed boat you can flood the engine bay and the craft won't sink. Well it might sink but it won't fill the cabin bilge up until things are in a seriously bad state. 

Don't mess with the bulkheads! Think of the Titanic. 

 

 

Slow and gradual filling of cabin bilge is a seriously dodgy situation to allow. Usually this sort of thing would only happen if a boat has a hole in it but by lowering the bulkhead to get a higher entrance door an unnecessary problem is introduced. 

 

A hinged and sealed flap with some neoprene sealing tape on it and wing nut (I prefer eye nuts to wing nuts as you can put a bar in to close it firmly) clamping system might stop Russia sending a nuclear capable ICBM over here. 

 

I won't hold my breath though ! 

 

It'll probably be okay. 

Edited January 13, 2023 by magnetman

[Tony1]

7 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

With decent solar charging I would expect a decent quality automatic bilge pump would reduce the sinking danger to exceptionally low, especially if you trapped the debris from the step before they got into the bilge. I think  rusting is a very minor problem,  especially if you clean, treat and paint it, repainting every few years.

 

Yes, it may be the boat in Alan's pic had a flat battery and couldn't pump. 

 

But out of interest, there are a few interesting-looking fittings that could potentially be placed in a step drain hole to help prevent or at least slow down any clogging: 

 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B09MLWN2QN/ref=ox_sc_act_title_4?smid=A1ANUYFJGZ68D2&psc=1

 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B095WS7T5J/ref=ox_sc_act_title_2?smid=A3GZ9691K5RE6Q&psc=1

 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B09HPL13PL/ref=ox_sc_act_title_3?smid=AP9T7PB1AA6M9&psc=1

 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B09HPL13PL/ref=ox_sc_act_title_3?smid=AP9T7PB1AA6M9&psc=1

 

I like the steel one as it looks strong and wouldn't need a protective steel piece fitting over it

 

 

 

 

[magnetman]

I think a wire balloon would be brilliant as long as you were not looking to use it as a parachute. 

[Alan de Enfield]

3 minutes ago, Tony1 said:

Yes, it may be the boat in Alan's pic had a flat battery and couldn't pump. 

 

 

I guess with a decent, 'average sized' bilge pump drawing 4 amps the threory says it is only 24 hours before a 100Ah battery is totally and completely exhausted, and considerably less than that before the pump doesn't get enough leccy to work.

 

Back around the millenium solar panels (as far as I know) were not affordable or readily available - and I don't ever remember seeing them on boats. So once you started getting a build up of water it pumped out as long as the battery lasted.

[Tony1]

20 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

With decent solar charging I would expect a decent quality automatic bilge pump would reduce the sinking danger to exceptionally low, especially if you trapped the debris from the step before they got into the bilge. I think  rusting is a very minor problem,  especially if you clean, treat and paint it, repainting every few years.

 

In terms of trapping the leaves and only allowing water to drain, my current thinking would be to get one of these (a steel cage about 3 inches across), and grind off the lower part of the cage so that it effectively becomes a cover.

Then it will lay flush on the step, and can cover the existing drain hole, and I can drill/tap say three screws to fix it there. 

 

That also means I can keep the existing drain tube underneath (to which I can attach tubing etc). 

 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B08N52B4RW/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?smid=A2B7LF6JUYH3UP&psc=1

 

 

[Tony1]

15 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

I guess with a decent, 'average sized' bilge pump drawing 4 amps the threory says it is only 24 hours before a 100Ah battery is totally and completely exhausted, and considerably less than that before the pump doesn't get enough leccy to work.

 

Back around the millenium solar panels (as far as I know) were not affordable or readily available - and I don't ever remember seeing them on boats. So once you started getting a build up of water it pumped out as long as the battery lasted.

 

If something like this happened in the summer (God forbid), and/or if I could route my lithiums back to support my lead acid batteries, the solar I have would probably keep the pump working just about 24/7 until it failed. 

 

 

[Alan de Enfield]

6 minutes ago, Tony1 said:

If something like this happened in the summer (God forbid),

 

IF is a 'big word'.

If your Grandmother had balls she'd be your Grandfather.

[magnetman]

18 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

I guess with a decent, 'average sized' bilge pump drawing 4 amps the threory says it is only 24 hours before a 100Ah battery is totally and completely exhausted, and considerably less than that before the pump doesn't get enough leccy to work.

 

Back around the millenium solar panels (as far as I know) were not affordable or readily available - and I don't ever remember seeing them on boats. So once you started getting a build up of water it pumped out as long as the battery lasted.

1996 I paid £375 for a 75w solar panel which did four fifths of five eighths of nothing.. 

 

Cheaper these days on account of the zay jang Chinese slaves. Always good. 

18 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

IF is a 'big word'.

If your Grandmother had balls she'd be your Grandfather.

Not the case these days with open choices on gender identity. 

 

Yesterday I was a woman !

Edited January 14, 2023 by Athy

[ditchcrawler]

28 minutes ago, Tony1 said:

 

If something like this happened in the summer (God forbid), and/or if I could route my lithiums back to support my lead acid batteries, the solar I have would probably keep the pump working just about 24/7 until it failed. 

 

 

Why not feed the pump from the domestic battery bank much more capacity 

[Tony1]

2 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

Why not feed the pump from the domestic battery bank much more capacity 

 

I have thought about that as an alternative tbh, and in the summer it would guarantee almost unlimited running of the bilge pump.

But early Nov to mid Feb, the lithiums are often run down to 20 or 30% (i.e. about 80-100Ah left), so they might not be any better than the lead acids.

 

Diverting some solar charge to the lead acids would be more complicated wiring ( I would imagine), but the plus side is that the lead acids would be getting more frequent charging during the summer. 

If I only move twice a week, thats three days where the lead acids are usually sat there with no charge coming in (although they arent using any charge either). 

I'd have to remember to change the charge profile on the MPPT if I divert them from lithium to lead acid, but the extra charging might keep them in better shape for longer. 

 

Still not sure what way is best really. 

 

[Jon57]

2 hours ago, magnetman said:

Reverse the position of the water and the leaves. Put a tray in there with something like a disposable barbecue mesh propped up to say 2 inches. Leaves stay on top water drains down and you put a whale SuperSub bilge pump in there to clear the water. 

Even a galvanise door mat/boot scraper possibly 

[Tony1]

 

4 hours ago, magnetman said:

Reverse the position of the water and the leaves. Put a tray in there with something like a disposable barbecue mesh propped up to say 2 inches. Leaves stay on top water drains down and you put a whale SuperSub bilge pump in there to clear the water. 

 

Just a thought on this- instead of trying to make a cut-out in the mesh to fit around the bilge pump (or even just for the pump tubing) why not sit the bilge pump on top of a wire platform say 3 inches high, set to one side of the catchment tray?

The leaves will fall into the tray and sink to the bottom, and the pump, standing 3 inches above the base and off to one side, will only be sucking water. 

 

I've ordered one of those steel cover cage things, so I'll chop the bottom off that and use the top half (the dome shaped part) as a cover over the drain hole.

That will stop 90% of the leaves anyway- as well as allowing water to drain though- so there will be very little debris for the pump below to deal with. 

 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B09MLWN2QN/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

 

My thinking is with that hard steel cover fixed in place, the buildup of leaves resulting in a blockage will take so long that even if something happens to me and I cant get back to the boat for weeks, the drain still wont clog, and the step wont overflow into the boat. 

 

But I believe the clogging and overflow risk is very real with these sort of steps.

The bottom of the door frame is only about 3 inches above the base plate of the bottom step, so the water doesnt have to rise up much before it starts overflowing into the cabin.

That very drain got blocked by debris just a couple of months ago, and if it hadn't been cleared (e.g. If I had been away from the boat), it would have 100% started filling up the step and then overflowing into the cabin within another day or two at most, given the heavy rain at the time.

 

And ultimately, with very little solar to recharge, the batteries would have run out and the bilge pump would have stopped. 

To put it into perspective, these boats are only vulnerable during Autumn, and they aren't sinking by the dozen.

But I would guess that's because people are mostly on them, or maybe they have stern covers, etc. 

But Alans example shows that the steps and the drain system are a design vulnerability that can sink or partially flood the boat- under certain (admittedly quite unusual) conditions. 

 

 

Edited January 13, 2023 by Tony1

[magnetman]

One way to avoid the problem with leaves is to not moor under or particularly close to trees. 

 

I think I probably need to outline my consultancy fees at this stage. It isn't going to be a cheap option. 

 

I would also suggest that putting too much faith in bilge pumps could well lead to negative outcomes as they not durable products. 

 

Many boats have been sunk in account of people relying on bilge pumps. 

 

The best bilge pump is a frightened person with a bucket. 

[Tony1]

3 minutes ago, magnetman said:

One way to avoid the problem with leaves is to not moor under or particularly close to trees. 

 

I think I probably need to outline my consultancy fees at this stage. It isn't going to be a cheap option. 

 

 

Of course I've no idea about the tree population on the wild Thames, but here on the civilised canals there appear to be too many trees to easily avoid them, and their leaves seem to get everywhere in Autumn. 

But to be honest I actually do avoid trees most of the time if I reasonably can, because the solar panels prefer it that way, and because I like lots of natural light to get into the boat. I'm not a fan of those densely wooded areas that look like the set of The Blair Witch Project.  

My legal team have advised that since I'm already following that part of your professional advice (i.e. 'avoid trees'), the fee for that bit can be waived. 

 

 

[magnetman]

12 minutes ago, Tony1 said:

.  

My legal team have advised that since I'm already following that part of your professional advice (i.e. 'avoid trees'), the fee for that bit can be waived. 

 

 

 

You might need a better lawyer here .

 

You have already suggested that you have issues with leaves getting in to quite sensitive areas. I have suggested a way of mitigating this circumstance. 

 

My Thames boat is indeed under quite a significant leaf burden but I have dealt with this on physical, psychological and spiritual levels by having sensible systems and quite a lot of therapy with regards to the trees and even more to do with the birds (two legged animal type). I also have a tarpaulin.

 

I would also suggest raising the level of the bulkhead cutout but we have been through this and presumably you have not yet had the invoice. 

Edited January 13, 2023 by magnetman

[Machpoint005]

22 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

Isn't it 10 " (250mm for the foreigners)

 

I think you'll find that the BSS requirements are expressed in modern units...but I haven't checked.

 

 

[magnetman]

I think one will also find that 10 inches is in fact 254mm not 250mm. 

[Machpoint005]

42 minutes ago, magnetman said:

>>Many boats have been sunk in account of people relying on bilge pumps. 

 

The best bilge pump is a frightened person with a bucket. 

 

No, the best bilge pump is one you don't need at all, because the boat was designed and built properly.

 

Like ours.