CIN, CE, HIN - have paper work but do not have anything "stamped" on the hull.

[frlrubett]

This has been covered quite a bit on the forum but I still cannot find the solution.  This issue has only started when looking to sell the boat and getting the paperwork in order.

 

1.  The boat was built by "ABC Steelworks" in 2005, there is a builders plate on the starboard side.  I have an Annex III (a) declaration document for a "partially completed craft" from ABC Steelworks.

 

2.  The boat was then completed by "Mr Joe Bloggs" in 2007.  I have a signed document which states that the boat "has been fitted to a fully liveable standard and meets all requirement for the boat safety scheme."

 

3.  There is also RYA document addressed to "Mr Joe Bloggs"  and the Vessel name allocating the boat with a CIN number.

 

4.  In the engine bay there is a plate which states "Pressure tested to 3.5 lb/in".

 

Possible issues, please help.  I cannot find this CIN anywhere on the boat.  I cannot find a CE mark on the boat.  I have looked in the engine bay and I know the boat very well so have never seen any plates anywhere.  I querried this when I purcahsed the boat from a reputable broker and was shown the certificates and told this is all that is needed.  It is only from reading indepth about this that I understand the boat needs to be also stamped with the CIN number and there should be a CE plate somewhere also?

 

Does anyone know more about this?  Thanks.  (Company names have been changed for privacy).

 

Edited October 16, 2022 by frlrubett

[Alan de Enfield]

19 minutes ago, frlrubett said:

This has been covered quite a bit on the forum but I still cannot find the solution.  This issue has only started when looking to sell the boat and getting the paperwork in order.

 

1.  The boat was built by "ABC Steelworks" in 2005, there is a builders plate on the starboard side.  I have an Annex III (a) declaration document for a "partially completed craft" from ABC Steelworks.

 

2.  The boat was then completed by "Mr Joe Bloggs" in 2007.  I have a signed document which states that the boat "has been fitted to a fully liveable standard and meets all requirement for the boat safety scheme."

 

3.  There is also RYA document addressed to "Mr Joe Bloggs"  and the Vessel name allocating the boat with a CIN number.

 

4.  In the engine bay there is a plate which states "Pressure tested to 3.5 lb/in".

 

Possible issues, please help.  I cannot find this CIN anywhere on the boat.  I cannot find a CE mark on the boat.  I have looked in the engine bay and I know the boat very well so have never seen any plates anywhere.  I querried this when I purcahsed the boat from a reputable broker and was shown the certificates and told this is all that is needed.  It is only from reading indepth about this that I understand the boat needs to be also stamped with the CIN number and there should be a CE plate somewhere also?

 

Does anyone know more about this?  Thanks.  (Company names have been changed for privacy).

 

 

Since 2017 the HIN / CIN number has to be applied when it is 'completed' to whatever stage it is being sold / used, so, if it is being sold as a sailaway, the boat is now classed as 'completed' to the sailaway stage and the HIN / CIN applied by the Hull manufacturer.

 

Previously the HIN / CIN was applied by the boat builder (he is the one who 'finished' the boat) and it his responsibility to apply 2 numbers, one which is hidden away somewhere safe so if the boat is stolen and recovered only the builder can prove the ownership / details of the boat.

 

There is then a 'public' location, which is specified to be common for all boats so that a surveyor / Police / Customs Officer etc knows where to find it. I'll go thru my RCD paperwork and find the exact location it should be - maybe you will find it then

 

If is is not HIN/CIN numbered and not CE marked then it is not RCD compliant and you may find that (some) Brokers will not take it onto their books unless you have a PCA (Post Construction Assessment)

 

Edit to add - the pressure test figures relate to the compulsory pressure test of the fuel tank - it should also have the date alongside the test pressures.

Edited October 16, 2022 by Alan de Enfield

[mrsmelly]

When I fitted and completed my shell from new we stamped the number iirc on the upright of the weedhatch, or certainly in that area of the engine bay, easy to see. The number is a specific set that again iirc is partly made up by the owner/fitter/builder. Mine was done in 99/2000 when it wasnt considered so neccessary but I got it done and paid a surveyer to inspect the boat at various stages and issue me with a completed book etc. We also did a brass plate and fixed it outside at the arse end of the boat. When I sold the boat the bloke had no interest in the paperwork, hadnt heard of RCD lol and I sold it aged just over a year after completion.

[Alan de Enfield]

 

The HIN must be stamped / engraved / welded so as to be non-removable, and should be located on the external starboard side of the 'transom.

 

 

'Do Boats Have VIN Numbers: Where Are They And What Do They Mean – Begin Boating

[ditchcrawler]

3 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

The HIN must be stamped / engraved / welded so as to be non-removable, and should be located on the external starboard side of the 'transom.

 

 

'Do Boats Have VIN Numbers: Where Are They And What Do They Mean – Begin Boating

You often see them on the guard iron at the stern

[frlrubett]

Having further researched into this, the person who completed the boat build is not registered as a company.  I believe that the boat was a "home build" and that home build exhemption might apply.

 

Taken from "Rugby Boats"

"To meet the home build exemption the boat must have been used exclusively, as a recreation craft, by the builder AND
Not further placed on the market for at least 5 years. Further placing on the market means selling on, but by putting the craft up for charter it breaks the ‘exclusively for own use’ condition. It is very common for a private individual to buy a shell or sail-away and fit it out themselves. These are recognised as Home completed craft provided that they meet the same conditions of a home build, exclusive use and the 5 year rule. The clock starts ticking from the first time it is used as a recreational craft on the water, not necessarily from when it is fully completed, with all the furniture and carpets. Ask the owner for any proof that the non-CE marked home built or completed craft has been in use for 5 years. This proof could include BSS certificates, inland waterways licences or mooring, launching and docking receipts.
Consequences"

Does this boat still need to have a CIN on the Hull?

[Alan de Enfield]

26 minutes ago, frlrubett said:

Does this boat still need to have a CIN on the Hull?

 

(Probably) Legally "NO", but there are ever increasing numbers of reports of Brokers insisting that a home built-boat  (more than 5 years old) still need to be correctly marked.

There have been a couple of examples on this forum where 'home builds' have been required to get a PCA before the broker would take them on their books.

 

A HIN number has been issued by the RYA, maybe it is just marked somewhere where you have not looked yet - if you look harder (using a hammer and some punches to remove the rust / paint) the number may appear as if by magic !!!!!!!)

 

Your CE plate should look something like this .....................

(You must be able to buy the 'blanks' from somewhere to attach to your boat when it is completed)

 

 

A certificate saying it comples with the BSS is meanigless in the context of the RCD - the RCD requies you to do stability tests for example - the BSS does not, The RCD specified the types of cables and terminals to be used, the BSS does not - in fact 1000's of differences.

 

Edited October 16, 2022 by Alan de Enfield

[MtB]

4 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

(Probably) Legally "NO", but there are ever increasing numbers of reports of Brokers insisting that a home built-boat  (more than 5 years old) still need to be correctly marked.

 

Alan is correct, and here is the list:

 

.

.

.

.

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.

 

[matty40s]

5 hours ago, frlrubett said:

 

Does this boat still need to have a CIN on the Hull?

No

It doesn't matter now, no canal broker looks for the welded numbers on a hull when selling a boat, just a comprehensive paperwork trail covering build and maintenance....and RCD stuff on fairly new boats. 

If none of this is available, then brokers still sell boats. 

There is no number welded anywhere on my boat, I could sell it tommorow without worrying about it.

I dont have a pdf about it either.

Edited October 16, 2022 by matty40s

[pearley]

4 minutes ago, matty40s said:

No

It doesn't matter now, no canal broker looks for the welded numbers on a hull when selling a boat, just a comprehensive paperwork trail covering build and maintenance....and RCD stuff on fairly new boats. 

If none of this is available, then brokers still sell boats. 

There is no number welded anywhere on my boat, I could sell it tommorow without worrying about it.

I dont have a pdf about it either.

I won't worry about the one that's not visible on my boat then.

[matty40s]

2 hours ago, pearley said:

I won't worry about the one that's not visible on my boat then.

Your boat is new enough for it to be a major issue....

[pearley]

12 hours ago, matty40s said:

Your boat is new enough for it to be a major issue....

I'd better let them know then.

[Phoenix_V]

if it is missing maybe get a plate engraved and attach to boat job done

[pearley]

1 hour ago, Phoenix_V said:

if it is missing maybe get a plate engraved and attach to boat job done

Except a plate can easily be removed. At least if it's embossed by stamps on the stern it can be read with the right equipment even if ground away.

[Alan de Enfield]

6 minutes ago, pearley said:

Except a plate can easily be removed. At least if it's embossed by stamps on the stern it can be read with the right equipment even if ground away.

 

The CE marking can be a 'plate' but the HIN / CIN MUST be struck / engraved into the starboard side of the stern - a 'plate' is not allowed.

[pearley]

16 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

The CE marking can be a 'plate' but the HIN / CIN MUST be struck / engraved into the starboard side of the stern - a 'plate' is not allowed.

OK. But I have seen a number of boats with the number cut out of a plate which is then welded to the 'transom'.

 

Walking along our pontoon, those boats which have a number visible, mainly Collingwoods, have it in quite small characters, 5mm high? which can be easily ground out but may still be visible if looked at with the right equipment. Not that I can see the Police being bothered.

 

Then I have seen some boats with the numbers stamped with large characters approx 20mm high so will take more effort to remove.

 

Perhaps it's all a waste of time if it's meant to deter theft or deception.

 

[MtB]

1 hour ago, pearley said:

Except a plate can easily be removed. At least if it's embossed by stamps on the stern it can be read with the right equipment even if ground away.

 

A stamp kit to DIY can be purchased on ebay for about a tenner.

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/383711253021?hash=item5956f9121d:g:odYAAOSwYkdfV1NU&amdata=enc%3AAQAHAAABAE5awlEyDTI%2Bc8qKY%2FWcWvOTFm%2FQ28KUSiVkBpzt9IbXJwIoHcoMeAMVZgcdUcP6jTbGPtjvVSHwL3scrHEuP5b%2FCB72qSZs2kH2uh5nZ%2F9RbaIqiFyDMnr0zMjFbIdkhUfIdFQ0OOgHqxUq4Wgv6q9FY1omQ3RQpDRPoF1VDXJKJUCD%2F8slHNOE4EzOPF9Hw%2FurW9ohMxzvBasMd12sR1kIuKsjJSajWiyIXEuBHdTJiif0f9tCndJEKLNGGy3aqpbIpK1G8FBW1mi%2FBzUfSqeQl77kTRJxnpgL5%2FYHr2zn73AHhdL9VyUq%2BbUkGj68ltMcUJsszcOp25j4GydNwUY%3D|tkp%3ABFBMusvh-_xg

 

 

 

 

[Alan de Enfield]

33 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

A stamp kit to DIY can be purchased on ebay for about a tenner.

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/383711253021?hash=item5956f9121d:g:odYAAOSwYkdfV1NU&amdata=enc%3AAQAHAAABAE5awlEyDTI%2Bc8qKY%2FWcWvOTFm%2FQ28KUSiVkBpzt9IbXJwIoHcoMeAMVZgcdUcP6jTbGPtjvVSHwL3scrHEuP5b%2FCB72qSZs2kH2uh5nZ%2F9RbaIqiFyDMnr0zMjFbIdkhUfIdFQ0OOgHqxUq4Wgv6q9FY1omQ3RQpDRPoF1VDXJKJUCD%2F8slHNOE4EzOPF9Hw%2FurW9ohMxzvBasMd12sR1kIuKsjJSajWiyIXEuBHdTJiif0f9tCndJEKLNGGy3aqpbIpK1G8FBW1mi%2FBzUfSqeQl77kTRJxnpgL5%2FYHr2zn73AHhdL9VyUq%2BbUkGj68ltMcUJsszcOp25j4GydNwUY%3D|tkp%3ABFBMusvh-_xg

 

 

 

 

 

 

See post No5

[MtB]

7 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

See post No5

 

And? 

 

 

[Richard10002]

13 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

See post No5

Given that posts aren't numbered, do you mean the fifth post in the thread?

 

It was posted by the OP on Sunday..... 

 

If not, which one do you mean?

[MtB]

16 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

The CE marking can be a 'plate' but the HIN / CIN MUST be struck / engraved into the starboard side of the stern - a 'plate' is not allowed.

 

MUST????

 

Or what? 

 

Oh yeah I forgot. The boat will sink and the sky will fall in!

[Alan de Enfield]

8 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

MUST????

 

Or what? 

 

Oh yeah I forgot. The boat will sink and the sky will fall in!

 

 

The same as not having your car MOTd' or taxed - Nothing will happen until someone finds out and takes action.

[MtB]

20 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

The same as not having your car MOTd' or taxed - Nothing will happen until someone finds out and takes action.

 

Cobblers.

 

Nothing will happen.

[Alan de Enfield]

2 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

Cobblers.

 

Nothing will happen.

 

Following a customer complaint that he had not used the correct 'kite marked' safety glass in the boat he built for them, that is probably exactly what the NB builder Billy Hughes thought on his way to court !

 

After being found guilty in April of two offences under the Small Craft Regulations - the UK implementation for the Recreational Craft Directive (RCD) - Billy Hughes, owner of Shotton, Flintshire, based Deeside Narrowboats, was fined £ 600 with £ 1,500 costs.

[MtB]

20 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Following a customer complaint that he had not used the correct 'kite marked' safety glass in the boat he built for them, that is probably exactly what the NB builder Billy Hughes thought on his way to court !

 

After being found guilty in April of two offences under the Small Craft Regulations - the UK implementation for the Recreational Craft Directive (RCD) - Billy Hughes, owner of Shotton, Flintshire, based Deeside Narrowboats, was fined £ 600 with £ 1,500 costs.

 

Still cobblers. 

 

That is the boat builder being prosecuted not the owner, as you well know. Deliberately misleading as usual.