Alpha Batteries.

[Slow and Steady]

Just bought a 100Ah LB for my camper before I sell it.

Checked voltage on arrival - 12.4V.

Customer service good - offered I can use it for a bit until they swap it out in a weeks time (I said I really need it now), return at their expense for full refund or take a 30% refund and keep it.

So, the interesting thing - apologies, they were busy and it must have slipped past their pre-sales check. So, I conclude they make no effort to stop batteries sulphating in  storage, they just charge them up and send them out down on capacity. Seems like they don't even feel guilty about that. I know, I know - busy modern internet blah, blah. I picked them as they seemed quite big and I hoped had the turnover of batteries to reduce this risk. Should have gone to Tanya, but do they behave any differently?

 

 

[Alan de Enfield]

Bought 2x 230Ah 625 batteries from Alpha yesterday, delivered today and £50 cheaper than anywhere else,

Bit difficult to manhandle (at 55kgs each) but now we have them on the boat and the difficult 'jiggling' starts tomorrow,

Superb customer service

 

Voltage on arrival 12.7 on one and 12.69 on the other,

 

Buy (probably) half a dozen batteries per year (2x Tractors, Excavator, Golf Cart, ride on mower, 3x cars, 2x boats) and never had a problem with Alpha or Battery Megastors.

[Slow and Steady]

10 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Bought 2x 230Ah 625 batteries from Alpha yesterday, delivered today and £50 cheaper than anywhere else,

Bit difficult to manhandle (at 55kgs each) but now we have them on the boat and the difficult 'jiggling' starts tomorrow,

Superb customer service

 

Voltage on arrival 12.7 on one and 12.69 on the other,

 

Buy (probably) half a dozen batteries per year (2x Tractors, Excavator, Golf Cart, ride on mower, 3x cars, 2x boats) and never had a problem with Alpha or Battery Megastors.

The customer service I must say was instant and excellent after reporting my predicament.

The question being - how would you know if you were sent reduced capacity batteries that they (or any other supplier) simply charged up before sending out?

I'd be really pee'd off if I'd bought a whole bank of sulphated then charged up batteries for the boat, only finding out (and more likely blaming myself) that capacity wasn't as expected. I think you'd agree that assessing the capacity of a battery isn't all that straightforward for the average boat owner.

[Alan de Enfield]

1 minute ago, Slow and Steady said:

I think you'd agree that assessing the capacity of a battery isn't all that straightforward for the average boat owner.

 

Sorry - I disagree.

 

It is very simple (even for the below average boater) but does take a few hours to do properly.

If you can tell the time & read you can do it.

[Richard10002]

2 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Sorry - I disagree.

 

It is very simple (even for the below average boater) but does take a few hours to do properly.

If you can tell the time & read you can do it.

 

Unlike your usual incredibly helpful posts, this one is particularly unhelpful.

 

I don't disagree with what you say, but you need to know "how to do it", as well as being able to read and tell the time?

[Slow and Steady]

Of course, everything is simple if you know what you're doing.

[Alan de Enfield]

1 hour ago, Slow and Steady said:

Of course, everything is simple if you know what you're doing.

 

Several posters, myself included, have many times detailed how to do a 'down and dirty' capacity meaurement, if you do a search using battery capacity measuring I'm sure you will get dozens of hits.

 

To explain it simply and quickly :

 

You need to know the original capacity of the batteries (lets say 4x 100Ah).

You need a known load, (lets say a 1000 watt load which can be a 1kw electric heater supplied via the inverter).

You need a voltmeter.

You need a watch.

 

Method

Everything connected to the battery, both inputs and outputs must be switched off - yes - even the solar panels.

We then fully charge the battery until the tail current is less than 2% (1% is better) of the capacity of the battery bank. So in the example we are looking for a maximum charge current of 2% of 400 ( ie 8 amps) but 1% is better (4 amps). This must be at around 14.4-14.6 volts.

The voltage and current must remain unchanged for at least an hour.

The battery(s) are now as near as 100% as we can get them.

 

Switch off battery charger.

 

Connect the known load be in 250 watt, 500 watts, 1000watt or 'wattever'

Taking our 1kw electric heater it will be drawing ~100 amps from the batteries.

 

Connect the load to the battery. Make a note of the time.

 

Closely monitor the battery voltage (say) every 10 minutes.

When the voltage gets to 12.2 volts switch off the heater make a note of the time.

Work out the elapsed time

 

Allow the battery  few minutes (10 minutes) to recover & voltage will increase to (maybe) 12.3.

 

Switch heater back on again note the time

when voltage shows again as 12.2 volts make a note of the time and switch of the load.

Work out the elapsed time

 

Add together the elapsed time of the two sessions.

 

Why do we use 12.2 volts ?

Because this is the voltage when the battery capacity is at 50%, so we have 'used' 50% of the capacity and have 50% remaining.

 

Now to work out the actual battery capacity.

 

If the total elapsed time was 2 hours, we were drawing 100 amps so 50% of the battery capacity is 200Ah, then the total battery capacity is 400Ah and the batteries are 'as new' and have not been damaged or sulphated.

 

If the total elapsed time was 1 hour, we were drawing 100 amps so 50% of the battery capacity is 100Ah, then the total battery capacity is 200Ah and the batteries are seriously damaged &/or sulphated.

 

If the total elapsed time was 30 minutes, we were drawing 100 amps so 50% of the battery capacity is 50Ah, then the total battery capacity is 100Ah and the batteries are totally knackered and useless, each battery having only 25Ah capacity.

 

I have used 'round' numbers to make the example simple to follow. Plug in your numbers for your own battery bank.

[Slow and Steady]

29 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Several posters, myself included, have many times detailed how to do a 'down and dirty' capacity meaurement, if you do a search using battery capacity measuring I'm sure you will get dozens of hits.

 

To explain it simply and quickly :

 

You need to know the original capacity of the batteries (lets say 4x 100Ah).

You need a known load, (lets say a 1000 watt load which can be a 1kw electric heater supplied via the inverter).

You need a voltmeter.

You need a watch.

 

Method

Everything connected to the battery, both inputs and outputs must be switched off - yes - even the solar panels.

We then fully charge the battery until the tail current is less than 2% (1% is better) of the capacity of the battery bank. So in the example we are looking for a maximum charge current of 2% of 400 ( ie 8 amps) but 1% is better (4 amps). This must be at around 14.4-14.6 volts.

The voltage and current must remain unchanged for at least an hour.

The battery(s) are now as near as 100% as we can get them.

 

Switch off battery charger.

 

Connect the known load be in 250 watt, 500 watts, 1000watt or 'wattever'

Taking our 1kw electric heater it will be drawing ~100 amps from the batteries.

 

Connect the load to the battery. Make a note of the time.

 

Closely monitor the battery voltage (say) every 10 minutes.

When the voltage gets to 12.2 volts switch off the heater make a note of the time.

Work out the elapsed time

 

Allow the battery  few minutes (10 minutes) to recover & voltage will increase to (maybe) 12.3.

 

Switch heater back on again note the time

when voltage shows again as 12.2 volts make a note of the time and switch of the load.

Work out the elapsed time

 

Add together the elapsed time of the two sessions.

 

Why do we use 12.2 volts ?

Because this is the voltage when the battery capacity is at 50%, so we have 'used' 50% of the capacity and have 50% remaining.

 

Now to work out the actual battery capacity.

 

If the total elapsed time was 2 hours, we were drawing 100 amps so 50% of the battery capacity is 200Ah, then the total battery capacity is 400Ah and the batteries are 'as new' and have not been damaged or sulphated.

 

If the total elapsed time was 1 hour, we were drawing 100 amps so 50% of the battery capacity is 100Ah, then the total battery capacity is 200Ah and the batteries are seriously damaged &/or sulphated.

 

If the total elapsed time was 30 minutes, we were drawing 100 amps so 50% of the battery capacity is 50Ah, then the total battery capacity is 100Ah and the batteries are totally knackered and useless, each battery having only 25Ah capacity.

 

I have used 'round' numbers to make the example simple to follow. Plug in your numbers for your own battery bank.

Thank you.

In this case It's a single 100ah battery (at the 20C rate) and I'm charging it with a 10A "smart" charger. I have no means of measuring the tail current.

As batteries are normally rated at the 20C rate I imagine it does matter what load I put on it? Is that 20A x 12.7V = 254 so lets say 250W to compare to the 20C rate given? So if the battery is actually 100ah it should take about 2.5 hours to get down to 12.2V? From the amount/time it's taking to charge I'm not hopeful. it's been in the absorption state for hours.

Thanks.

Edited May 6, 2022 by Slow and Steady

[Alan de Enfield]

6 minutes ago, Slow and Steady said:

I have no means of measuring the tail current.

 

It would be advantageous to buy a DC ammeter. You will find a multitude of uses for it, and you can assess your battery capacity as well.

 

Yes you can do it with whatever load you want - you could use a 20 watt car bulb, but it would (could) take you over 24 hours to do the test on a single 100Ah battery.

[Slim]

5 hours ago, Slow and Steady said:

Just bought a 100Ah LB for my camper before I sell it.

Checked voltage on arrival - 12.4V.

Customer service good - offered I can use it for a bit until they swap it out in a weeks time (I said I really need it now), return at their expense for full refund or take a 30% refund and keep it.

So, the interesting thing - apologies, they were busy and it must have slipped past their pre-sales check. So, I conclude they make no effort to stop batteries sulphating in  storage, they just charge them up and send them out down on capacity. Seems like they don't even feel guilty about that. I know, I know - busy modern internet blah, blah. I picked them as they seemed quite big and I hoped had the turnover of batteries to reduce this risk. Should have gone to Tanya, but do they behave any differently?

 

 

I bought 4 Loach 130 ah AGMs from Alpha about 10 days ago. They all had a standing voltage of 12.9 ish.

[MtB]

35 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

You need to know the original capacity of the batteries (lets say 4x 100Ah).

You need a known load, (lets say a 1000 watt load which can be a 1kw electric heater supplied via the inverter).

You need a voltmeter.

You need a watch.

 

 

You seem to have assumed everyone has an inverter lying around. 

 

I also suspect that nice Mr Peukert might have something to say about your method.

[Slow and Steady]

2 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

It would be advantageous to buy a DC ammeter. You will find a multitude of uses for it, and you can assess your battery capacity as well.

 

Yes you can do it with whatever load you want - you could use a 20 watt car bulb, but it would (could) take you over 24 hours to do the test on a single 100Ah battery.

But then I'd be comparing apples to oranges wouldn't I?

For example my particular battery is rated at 100ah at the 20c rate and 110ah at the 10C rate. There is no ah figure given for your example 20w = about 1.5C rate but I imagine it's going to be a lot higher. Ergo the load used to discharge the battery to calculate the capacity as compared to the stated capacity DOES matter. That's what I was asking - I understand the general principle and the maths.

[Slow and Steady]

11 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

 

You seem to have assumed everyone has an inverter lying around. 

 

I also suspect that nice Mr Peukert might have something to say about your method.

I  have a blummin great a inverter attached to my boat leisure battery bank, but in this case that's going to be somewhat inconvenient to test one loose battery that's on my saloon floor. Assuming Alan is incorrect and I do need a 250w 12v DC load to compare at the stated 20C rate, I'm struggling to think what I can use. On top of that as soon as I switch the load off, that 12.2V I stop at is going to recover a bit isn't it? How do I deal with that - connect it up again and guesstimate compared to it's recovery? Or just accept it's near enough to know roughly how bad this battery is?

Edited May 6, 2022 by Slow and Steady

[Alan de Enfield]

3 minutes ago, Slow and Steady said:

On top of that as soon as I switch the load off, that 12.2V I stop at is going to recover a bit isn't it? How do I deal with that

 

 

53 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Closely monitor the battery voltage (say) every 10 minutes.

When the voltage gets to 12.2 volts switch off the heater make a note of the time.

Work out the elapsed time

 

Allow the battery  few minutes (10 minutes) to recover & voltage will increase to (maybe) 12.3.

 

Switch heater back on again note the time

when voltage shows again as 12.2 volts make a note of the time and switch of the load.

Work out the elapsed time

 

Read the method I outlined.

 

This whole issue has been discussed inumerable times - do a search and you'll find doxens of threads on the subject.

[Ronaldo47]

For cycling the leisure battery on my camper van I used to use  old dual-filament 55W headlamp bulbs and sealed headlamp  units where one of the filaments had failed.   

[MtB]

With a direct DC load like a headlamp bulb, as the battery voltage declines so does the current, so the calculations are either invalid or need to involve some calculus. 

 

 

[Slow and Steady]

14 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

 

Read the method I outlined.

 

This whole issue has been discussed inumerable times - do a search and you'll find doxens of threads on the subject.

Gotcha, I missed that detail, thanks.

Yes, I will find a thread where someone understands/explains the importance of the discharge load.

 

1 minute ago, MtB said:

With a direct DC load like a headlamp bulb, as the battery voltage declines so does the current, so the calculations are either invalid or need to involve some calculus. 

 

 

Damn it! I knew this wasn't a simple thing for your average boat owner. You are saying to do this test I actually need to connect a load via an inverter?

[MtB]

3 minutes ago, Slow and Steady said:

 

Damn it! I knew this wasn't a simple thing for your average boat owner. You are saying to do this test I actually need to connect a load via an inverter?

 

I think so, yes. There is a thread by me on this exact subject about 6 or 7 years ago but no-one suggested using an inverter to deliver a steady and stable load. On reflection I'm still not convinced even that gets around the problem! 

 

If His Normanship spots this thread he may sail in with the solution.... @nicknorman

[ditchcrawler]

We use to adjust the load to keep the current constant, you can probably get an instrument to do it automatically now

[Alan de Enfield]

8 minutes ago, Slow and Steady said:

Gotcha, I missed that detail, thanks.

Yes, I will find a thread where someone understands/explains the importance of the discharge load.

 

Damn it! I knew this wasn't a simple thing for your average boat owner. You are saying to do this test I actually need to connect a load via an inverter?

 

No I am not saying you must use an inverter, it was an example only.

I am simply saying you need a relatively large load or you can be sat for 'days' doing the test.

 

For your single battery you can use (as suggested) a 55w headlight. Do your calculations using 4.4 amps instead of 100 amps. 

 

It is only an approximation to show if you have a 'problem' or not.

[Slow and Steady]

1 minute ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

No I am not saying you must use an inverter, it was an example only.

I am simply saying you need a relatively large load or you can be sat for 'days' doing the test.

 

For your single battery you can use (as suggested) a 55w headlight. Do your calculations using 4.4 amps instead of 100 amps. 

 

It is only an approximation to show if you have a 'problem' or not.

Fair enough - I was hoping for something more accurate - I'm pretty sure this battery is down on capacity but how I proceed depends on how bad that is - accept the partial refund or send it back.

5 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

We use to adjust the load to keep the current constant, you can probably get an instrument to do it automatically now

complicateder and complicateder. lol

I mean, it's just a battery, you'd think there would be a capacity testing doodat for £10 from China on ebay.

[Ronaldo47]

The highly non-linear temperature/resistance characteristic of tungsten means that a tungsten bulb is a first approximation to a  constant current load. As the voltage drops, so does the filament temperature  and hence the resistance. The resistance of a filament bulb at room temperature is around one-tenth of its resistance at its operating voltage /temperature.  

Edited May 6, 2022 by Ronaldo47
typos

[blackrose]

Some complex stuff on this thread. I just did a voltage test and specific gravity test on the electrolyte of new Trojan batteries I'd bought with a hydrometer. That was enough data to determine that one of the three Trojans wasn't right and the supplier agreed to replace it.

[Naughty Cal]

15 minutes ago, blackrose said:

Some complex stuff on this thread. I just did a voltage test and specific gravity test on the electrolyte of new Trojan batteries I'd bought with a hydrometer. That was enough data to determine that one of the three Trojans wasn't right and the supplier agreed to replace it.

Not so easy with sealed units though 🤔

[Tom and Bex]

8 hours ago, Slow and Steady said:

you'd think there would be a capacity testing doodat for £10 from China on ebay.

Admittedly not ebay, and not £10, but I bought this from Aliexpress to accurately test done used lithium cells and seems to work well. Certainly easier and more accurate than Alan's method! Think I paid about £22 so gone up a bit, but still good value.

 

150W 20A DC Power USB Tester Electronic Load Lithium Battery Capacity Monitor Discharge Meter Supply Checker With APP https://a.aliexpress.com/_veWsvX