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JP3 not starting


steve.sharratt
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Hi,

 

I could not get my JP3 to start yesterday.  Fired her up a few weeks ago and she resisted for a while but then all was ok.  She is catching but not firing. I am opening the throttle wide to start and was wondering whether after ‘many’ starting attempts where all the unburnt fuel is going? If flooding possible?  I am about to give it another try (after batteries are recharged) but thought I would ask this question now just in case I am missing something obvious.

 

Note: I did disconnect the fuel lines at the injector and there seems to be fuel there but I haven’t turned the engine over to pump fuel through.

 

Cheers

 

Steve

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2 minutes ago, steve.sharratt said:

I am opening the throttle wide to start and was wondering whether after ‘many’ starting attempts where all the unburnt fuel is going? If flooding possible?

 

If the fuel is being atomised well but not igniting, it will be pouring out the exhaust as 'white smoke' during attempted starting. 

 

If no white exhaust smoke, you have fuel starvation.

 

I think! 

 

 

 

P.S. you presumably have a fuel day tank on the bulkhead with a JP2. Try draining a bit from the drain tap to rule out water in the fuel.

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10 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

If the fuel is being atomised well but not igniting, it will be pouring out the exhaust as 'white smoke' during attempted starting. 

 

If no white exhaust smoke, you have fuel starvation.

 

I think! 

 

 

 

P.S. you presumably have a fuel day tank on the bulkhead with a JP2. Try draining a bit from the drain tap to rule out water in the fuel.

My wife did say there were puffs of black smoke (normally runs very clean). No white smoke though. I do have a day tank and I did recently drain off some fuel but you are quite right - I will drain off again to be sure.

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18 minutes ago, steve.sharratt said:

My wife did say there were puffs of black smoke (normally runs very clean).

 

Hmmm that sounds to me as though one cylinder is firing but not the other two.

 

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if it ran a bit ragged ,then cleared up......you have an air leak into the system.......(assume you havent run out of fuel).........dont disconnect injectors,remove one of the bleed screws in the pump fuel gallery,and pump the lift pump until filters and fuel pump are purged of air .....if its a gravity system ,them an air leak is unlikely ,but even so ,let the fuel gallery run to vent any air.

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I had something similar on my JP3. Eventually, traced the source of the problem to the OEM twin fuel filter assembly. It was  leaking air into the fuel system. I bypassed the OEM fuel filter with a modern day fuel filter and the problem disappeared. Of course, any assembly or fuel pipe joint can leak air into the system over time. Hope this helps and provides some things for you to check.

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35 minutes ago, RAP said:

I had something similar on my JP3. Eventually, traced the source of the problem to the OEM twin fuel filter assembly. It was  leaking air into the fuel system. I bypassed the OEM fuel filter with a modern day fuel filter and the problem disappeared. Of course, any assembly or fuel pipe joint can leak air into the system over time. Hope this helps and provides some things for you to check.

 

50 minutes ago, john.k said:

if it ran a bit ragged ,then cleared up......you have an air leak into the system.......(assume you havent run out of fuel).........dont disconnect injectors,remove one of the bleed screws in the pump fuel gallery,and pump the lift pump until filters and fuel pump are purged of air .....if its a gravity system ,them an air leak is unlikely ,but even so ,let the fuel gallery run to vent any air.

FIXED!  I disconnected the fuel lines at the injectors and hand spun the flywheel.  Each of the three blew air bubbles so kept cranking until clean fuel showed. Fired up straight away took a few minutes to find her balance and now she is purring like a kitten. It should have been an obvious 1st choice for me as I have been slowly upgrading and rerouting fuel lines over winter.  I suspect the disconnects allowed fuel to drain back down the lines and introduced an air lock.  Thanks for the good advice.

 

While I’m here… My decompression valves are on the side of the block, not on top as I often see online. On top I have a small inverted bowl with a pin through the centre (accessed through a hole in each valve cover). Should these pins be set in any particular position?

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34 minutes ago, steve.sharratt said:

My decompression valves are on the side of the block, not on top as I often see online.

'Mushroom' decompresser knobs on the side of the block are found on older JPs. The decompressers on the rocker cover appear on later engines.

34 minutes ago, steve.sharratt said:

On top I have a small inverted bowl with a pin through the centre (accessed through a hole in each valve cover). Should these pins be set in any particular position?

Oilers? Photos would help.

Edited by David Mack
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2 minutes ago, David Mack said:

'Mushroom' decompresser knobs on the side of the block are found on older JPs. The decompressers on the rocker cover appear on later engines.

Oilers? Photos would help.

Reckon you are right, no oil pump in JP3 so rocker gear needs oiling by the engine man. There is another thread here about this.

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1 hour ago, steve.sharratt said:

FIXED!  I disconnected the fuel lines at the injectors and hand spun the flywheel.  Each of the three blew air bubbles so kept cranking until clean fuel showed. Fired up straight away took a few minutes to find her balance and now she is purring like a kitten.

 

Excellent news!! 

 

Thanks for updating.

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No ,he has the motor going......problem not fixed.......will recur next time the engine is not run for a week or so.....Incidentally,JP with valve lifters in the crankcase is an early one ,prewar,or WW2.

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4 hours ago, David Mack said:

'Mushroom' decompresser knobs on the side of the block are found on older JPs. The decompressers on the rocker cover appear on later engines.

Oilers? Photos would help.

Photos attached.  They show the decompression levels and the ‘bowl’ The bowl is over the injectors so in a separate chamber to the valves.

6A1A3453-C185-49CA-B26D-C5D6377F60C4.jpeg

7FF6A19F-9FA2-44C4-903A-23F7284A807A.jpeg

023D18AD-FD99-4D9B-9234-643312C2DB97.jpeg

D3C886E6-14F3-4CAA-8D9D-8C5A4BC065DA.jpeg

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That dome is the top of the injector. As far as I know the pins don't need to need 'set'. But if you put your finger on the top when the engine is being turned over you will feel when the diesel is being injected.

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I assume that it is/was an industrial version as they generally only have the mushroom decompression buttons, and i think those sliding covers are to allow oil to be squirted in - much better to remove the rocker covers though. Judging by the rust and generally dry look of the valve gear side, you need to oil the springs, rockers and shaft assembly as the grease only feeds the shaft bearings. It is normal to leave a pool of oil in the section where the springs sit.

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29 minutes ago, David Mack said:

That dome is the top of the injector. As far as I know the pins don't need to need 'set'. But if you put your finger on the top when the engine is being turned over you will feel when the diesel is being injected.

 

8 minutes ago, BWM said:

I assume that it is/was an industrial version as they generally only have the mushroom decompression buttons, and i think those sliding covers are to allow oil to be squirted in - much better to remove the rocker covers though. Judging by the rust and generally dry look of the valve gear side, you need to oil the springs, rockers and shaft assembly as the grease only feeds the shaft bearings. It is normal to leave a pool of oil in the section where the springs sit.

 

I have two manuals but neither show the configuration I have. The rockers are in a separate compartment to the injectors and are well oiled. I do remove the covers and pour oil over the rockers and valves pre-start so no issues there ( I think the picture makes it look dryer than it is). The section which covers the injectors and pin has no (visible) moving parts.  Looking at the picture I have realised that the top fuel line that heads to top-right of picture is an overflow line. The fuel-in line is the one with the large nut. Is it possible the pin controls how much fuel is released?

 

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No.  The pin is, as David M says,  for feeling the injection occurring.  Steamraiser may know more but I think they are known as an injector feeling pin.  They can be found on other makes of engine but generally are a pre WW2 fitment from the days when making injection equipment was not a well developed art.

 

Put your finger gently on the pin while the engine is being cranked and you will feel whether the fuel system is properly bled, and, with experience, you can diagnose some maladies of the injection pump and delivery valve.

 

N

  • Greenie 1
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4 hours ago, David Mack said:

That dome is the top of the injector. As far as I know the pins don't need to need 'set'. But if you put your finger on the top when the engine is being turned over you will feel when the diesel is being injected.

 

1 hour ago, BEngo said:

No.  The pin is, as David M says,  for feeling the injection occurring.  Steamraiser may know more but I think they are known as an injector feeling pin.  They can be found on other makes of engine but generally are a pre WW2 fitment from the days when making injection equipment was not a well developed art.

 

Put your finger gently on the pin while the engine is being cranked and you will feel whether the fuel system is properly bled, and, with experience, you can diagnose some maladies of the injection pump and delivery valve.

 

N

That’s interesting.  I will test it tomorrow!

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Long time since I've done it, but from memory if the injector is working nicely you feel a sharp jab from the pin as the fuel is injected (i.e. once every two revolutions of the crankshaft), but if the injector needs bleeding you either feel nothing or just a very slight  weak movement.

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Yes,they are called "feeler pins" in the parts list..........if the system is working at peak efficiency ,you should feel a "creak" as the motor is slowly turned over....hear it too...........later JPs have grease cups on the rockers ,which I fill with pure MoS2 /moly dag..

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6 hours ago, john.k said:

Yes,they are called "feeler pins" in the parts list..........if the system is working at peak efficiency ,you should feel a "creak" as the motor is slowly turned over....hear it too...........later JPs have grease cups on the rockers ,which I fill with pure MoS2 /moly dag..

Going to test shortly.  Definitely get the creak and I do have grease caps on the rockers.  It’s interesting that some aspects of my engine suggest an earlier model but other features, such as you mention, appeared later.  My research suggest that she was built in 1950.

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1 hour ago, steve.sharratt said:

My research suggest that she was built in 1950.

Lister used to produce engines to a 'build number'.  If you can find the list each build number was associated with features of the engine, such as speed, rated output, marine or industrial configuration etc.  

 

I have the technical manual, which gives details of build numbers for later engines, in the era of the HR etc. but not for the JP and JK or JS.

 

N

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1 minute ago, BEngo said:

Lister used to produce engines to a 'build number'.  If you can find the list each build number was associated with features of the engine, such as speed, rated output, marine or industrial configuration etc.  

 

I have the technical manual, which gives details of build numbers for later engines, in the era of the HR etc. but not for the JP and JK or JS.

 

N

Lister left the list on Red Dwarf with Cat, who ate it.

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1 hour ago, steve.sharratt said:

Going to test shortly.  Definitely get the creak and I do have grease caps on the rockers.  It’s interesting that some aspects of my engine suggest an earlier model but other features, such as you mention, appeared later.  My research suggest that she was built in 1950.

The colour and configuration of your engine have a lot in common with those i've seen that were GPO stand by generators. 

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30 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:

Lister left the list on Red Dwarf with Cat, who ate it.

 

10 minutes ago, BWM said:

The colour and configuration of your engine have a lot in common with those i've seen that were GPO stand by generators. 

Not sure why I said 1950.  1944 is my estimate based on the attached. Engine number is 60/20579. I think it is likely that it was originally a generator. Prior to installation it was pulled apart for rebuild and the ring/bores etc were apparently in a new condition suggesting that she either saw little to no use or had been completely rebuilt.  I know that the Gardner in my Dutch barge came from a hospital during the Thatcher era clean out. Again, never used.
 

I gave her a short run this morning as I had to turn her around.  Tested the feeler pins and they all gave a good jab so it looks like all is good.  She runs beautifully with little to no smoke but I do have one little niggle - occasionally she will (seem to) miss. I get a single cough and then it is fine again. No specific action seems to trigger it and it is completely random.  Normal?  If not, I think I will start a new thread and post a video of it.

 

Thanks everyone for all of your help. This site is gold!

 

Lister Date Chart.jpg

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