Diesel fitter

[Chambo]

10 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

OK, the piece of gauze was overhauled 3 years ago.

 

Have you removed it, washed and replaced it in the last 3 years ?

 

Muck, fluff and even carbon can accumulate it only takes a little in each 'hole' in the gauze to affect the air supply.

Ok, you’re misunderstanding me when I say the air filter is a piece qauze, what is actually in there are two circles of metal the same height as the air cleaner housing, these are literally peppered with holes of approximately 8mm. Originally there would have been some fine gauze material between these two circles of metal that you would have taken out, cleaned in parrafin and lightly oiled before replacing, this fine gauze is no longer there!

[Alan de Enfield]

2 minutes ago, Chambo said:

Ok, you’re misunderstanding me when I say the air filter is a piece qauze, what is actually in there are two circles of metal the same height as the air cleaner housing, these are literally peppered with holes of approximately 8mm. Originally there would have been some fine gauze material between these two circles of metal that you would have taken out, cleaned in parrafin and lightly oiled before replacing, this fine gauze is no longer there!

 

 

Like this ?

 

 

[Chambo]

2 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

Like this ?

 

 

No, it’s a solid metal housing with an air intake funnel, the same as you would find on many old cars from the 60’s and 70’s, the two rings of metal gauze sit inside this and the fine mesh would be between the two rings. Looking at your photo, the air filter shown, the gauze around the outside is actually smaller gauge than the two circles of metal gauze inside the filter housing.

[Peugeot 106]

Ok. I’m just thinking that you may as well eliminate the easier things first

1) air filter just undo and try. 5 minutes

2) water in fuel 15 mins. Rubbish fuel you could rig up an alternative supply

3) exhaust undo 30 minutes

4) fuel pumps, injectors 60 minutes CARE take them to specialist. Could you undo delivery to one injector and see if it still smokes while running and then the other. I think that the injection pumps can cause problems. You seem to be advised to leave well alone and I was told they could cause problems if not torqued down correctly ie not too much and the correct shims need to be fitted

5)Head off to eliminate problems you can probably then see which cylinder is sooty 5 hours

6) after that it’s look at the governor and unless you take the engine out you need to be a bit of a contortionist. I’ve only disassembled one so far but it looks ok to reassemble if a little fiddly and you need to be ready to stick your head over the air inlet if you reassemble it wrong and it runs away

 

you have my sympathy we went up the Trent this summer and it would not be much fun with a dicky engine. Because the lock keepers were not working normal hours we had to go against the flow all day after Torksey

 

i’m assuming you have discussed all this with RWLP. He really is your man if you can twist his arm!  Maybe he can be persuaded to hold your hand from a distance?

 

Best

 

 

 

 

For Head read Hand!!!!!

[dmr]

Did the engine smoke before it was rebuilt? Did it smoke immediately after it was rebuilt, or was it clean for a time? (bet you can't remember 😀).

How many hours have you done since the rebuild?  When did you last fill up with diesel?   Does the engine start really well?   Is there any way the compression could be down?

 

My own engine (Beta JD3) has been getting smokier and smokier over the last few years and I can't work out why. I sometimes suspect its the crap diesel that we get these days.

Is yours a DI or IDI? If an engine is just on the edge of not smoking I suspect a slight drop in fuel quality can tip it over. In my case rigging up a temporary fuel supply is no help as once the injectors have got dirty and compromised the spray pattern they stay dirty (unless I take them out and clean them). I note that your injector work gave you a short term improvement.

[Tony Brooks]

13 minutes ago, dmr said:

Did the engine smoke before it was rebuilt? Did it smoke immediately after it was rebuilt, or was it clean for a time? (bet you can't remember 😀).

How many hours have you done since the rebuild?  When did you last fill up with diesel?   Does the engine start really well?   Is there any way the compression could be down?

 

My own engine (Beta JD3) has been getting smokier and smokier over the last few years and I can't work out why. I sometimes suspect its the crap diesel that we get these days.

Is yours a DI or IDI? If an engine is just on the edge of not smoking I suspect a slight drop in fuel quality can tip it over. In my case rigging up a temporary fuel supply is no help as once the injectors have got dirty and compromised the spray pattern they stay dirty (unless I take them out and clean them). I note that your injector work gave you a short term improvement.

 

According t the Lister data sheet I found for the LPWS4 it is indirect injection but I find these modern Lister models confusing on that front. If it were direct injection I could understand part of the smoking at canal speed, but not for indirect injection.

[Tony Brooks]

53 minutes ago, Peugeot 106 said:

snip

 

6) after that it’s look at the governor and unless you take the engine out you need to be a bit of a contortionist. I’ve only disassembled one so far but it looks ok to reassemble if a little fiddly and you need to be ready to stick your head over the air inlet if you reassemble it wrong and it runs away

 

snip

 

Unless it is overloading I can't see how the governor could cause the smoke. The vast majority of diesels control their speed by increasing or decreasing the amount of fuel injected so if the governor was delivering too much fuel the engine would just speed up. That is unless something is holding the speed down so it can't, so back to possibly over propped.

[Alan de Enfield]

27 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

According t the Lister data sheet I found for the LPWS4 it is indirect injection but I find these modern Lister models confusing on that front. If it were direct injection I could understand part of the smoking at canal speed, but not for indirect injection.

 

All of the LPWS range are Indirect Injection

 

 

[IanD]

19 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

All of the LPWS range are Indirect Injection

 

 

Maybe Lister should check for errors in their own data sheet, 10.7bhp=8kW not 0.8kW...

[Peugeot 106]

Nobody has suggested checking the fuel filter for water etc??

 

My LPWS2 starts promptly without the heater in the summer from stone cold ie overnight This apparently is a sign of decent compression but then I only have two cylinders so one cylinder misbehaving will be more noticeable. I haven’t tried it in winter.

Tony is reassuring about the governor. He knows more than I do.

Ian there are other errors including in the manual re crankcase vacuum test at low revs. It is corrected in the latest 2006 manual which is better all round. Don’t ask how I know!

Chambo why don’t you do the simple checks first and then think about head off

if the engine was rebuilt 3 years ago at least you shouldn’t have too many problems taking it apart

what does anybody think about running it with 3 cylinders and seeing if running it without one of the cylinders stops the smoke? Would this work

 

by the way Chambo how much smoke is there. Do you get gassed in locks. Could you call it a puff or is it constant with everybody looking at you

[Tony Brooks]

32 minutes ago, Peugeot 106 said:

snip

what does anybody think about running it with 3 cylinders and seeing if running it without one of the cylinders stops the smoke? Would this work

 

snip

 

If it is an individual injector I think it might work to a degree so probably worth a try.

[Peugeot 106]

Chambo i’m Only harping on about water in the fuel or fuel quality as this is specifically stated as causing black smoke. I don’t know if the smoke would increase or decrease at high revs if this is the case. 

[Peugeot 106]

One other thought. I have done a crankcase vacuum test on mine and  it only start to get a vacuum at 1500rpm (+12mm water at 900 rpm idle).  If I fit the recommended air inlet restrictor this drops to 1300rpm. Because you are running at load at such low speeds are you getting oil up through the breather tubes into the inlet manifold which is then appearing as smoke. I’m not sure why this wouldn’t be burnt in the cylinder but when you thrash it you will probably have a decent vacuum The smoke should disappear. A vacuum test is simple to do as per the manual and gives you a good indication of engine condition. If you need to clean out the breathers they a underneath the rocker covers.

I suggest Tony comments on this theory.

What  you should be getting is a small black puff when starting or changing rpm quickly and then clear when running normally not overloaded then blue smoke when you are overloaded. I’m suggesting that you might rarely operating at vacuum? 

What are the maximum revs you can get when loaded and out of gear? Do you have oil leaks. If you are operating at load but low revs this would be a distinct possibility

 

[Tony Brooks]

Tony's comment.

 

I would never expect a significant vacuum in a modern diesel crank case which is what I think you are talking about because the inlet is really not restricted so getting  a positive crankcase purge would only happen at higher speeds.  The fact that this engine has a modified air cleaner with less restriction than when originally fitted might be a factor if oil mist can be blown up into the rocker covers. However the SR/SLs did not seem to suffer in that way to any significant extent.

 

I wonder if this engine has glazed its bores or has never ben properly run in since overhaul so it suffers more crank case pressure than typical.

[dmr]

16 minutes ago, Peugeot 106 said:

One other thought. I have done a crankcase vacuum test on mine and  it only start to get a vacuum at 1500rpm (+12mm water at 900 rpm idle).  If I fit the recommended air inlet restrictor this drops to 1300rpm. Because you are running at load at such low speeds are you getting oil up through the breather tubes into the inlet manifold which is then appearing as smoke. I’m not sure why this wouldn’t be burnt in the cylinder but when you thrash it you will probably have a decent vacuum The smoke should disappear. A vacuum test is simple to do as per the manual and gives you a good indication of engine condition. If you need to clean out the breathers they a underneath the rocker covers.

I suggest Tony comments on this theory.

What  you should be getting is a small black puff when starting or changing rpm quickly and then clear when running normally not overloaded then blue smoke when you are overloaded. I’m suggesting that you might rarely operating at vacuum? 

What are the maximum revs you can get when loaded and out of gear? Do you have oil leaks. If you are operating at load but low revs this would be a distinct possibility

 

 

Overloaded, in putting in more fuel than the engine can handle, is black smoke, obvious and at times dramatic. Sucking up oil is blue smoke, though differentiating between blue smoke and grey smoke of "not too good combustion" is surprisingly difficult.  I would not expect to see any real crankcase vacuum on a diesel, what is the restrictor you talk of? High load at low speed is interesting, I don't think this makes more vacuum but Ill do a bit of thinking, it could make more blowby.

[Tony Brooks]

21 minutes ago, dmr said:

 

Overloaded, in putting in more fuel than the engine can handle, is black smoke, obvious and at times dramatic. Sucking up oil is blue smoke, though differentiating between blue smoke and grey smoke of "not too good combustion" is surprisingly difficult.  I would not expect to see any real crankcase vacuum on a diesel, what is the restrictor you talk of? High load at low speed is interesting, I don't think this makes more vacuum but Ill do a bit of thinking, it could make more blowby.

 

I think it would create higher crankcase pressure because the cylinder pressure would probably be higher for loner as more fuel is being burned and the piston is moving more slowly so more time for the pressure to leak past the rings.

[Peugeot 106]

I get 44mm water vacuum at my max speed of 2200 rpm. According to the manual a pressure of up to 10 mm is acceptable up to 1800rpm. Above 1800rpm the minimum vacuum is 20mm average 35mm so my engine is in good nick but don’t know about OP. The restrictor which according to manual is a plastic annulus fitted to the air intake where the filter fits on. It looks like a plastic bottle top costs £20! It does make a difference and zero pressure/ vacuum is reached about 200 earlier.

Tony I had a pancake filter and changed it for the lister filter but it made no difference. If it was dirty it would increase vacuum.

I too was told that glazed bores would increase crankcase pressure

dmr my notes showed running in gear at around 1500 rpm tied to jetty had just about the same effect as fitting restrictor ie vacuum was increased

i better come clean about how I know all this. I spent ages and I mean truly ages trying to source a small oil leak. Most evenings on a 2 month cruise i’m anal like that.I found it but that’s another story

hope this helps and thanks for your help I just wish op could give a bit more info

[dmr]

15 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

I think it would create higher crankcase pressure because the cylinder pressure would probably be higher for loner as more fuel is being burned and the piston is moving more slowly so more time for the pressure to leak past the rings.

Apologies as i'm only half reading this thread, but I think we need to decide the source of the OPs smoke, is it bad combustion or is it burning oil? It can be hard to tell blue smoke from grey. What is the oil consumption?, that's probably a key factor? I believe it can sometimes be quite difficult to get the rings to bed in after a rebuild.

[dmr]

17 minutes ago, Peugeot 106 said:

I get 44mm water vacuum at my max speed of 2200 rpm. According to the manual a pressure of up to 10 mm is acceptable up to 1800rpm. Above 1800rpm the minimum vacuum is 20mm average 35mm so my engine is in good nick but don’t know about OP. The restrictor which according to manual is a plastic annulus fitted to the air intake where the filter fits on. It looks like a plastic bottle top costs £20! It does make a difference and zero pressure/ vacuum is reached about 200 earlier.

Tony I had a pancake filter and changed it for the lister filter but it made no difference. If it was dirty it would increase vacuum.

I too was told that glazed bores would increase crankcase pressure

dmr my notes showed running in gear at around 1500 rpm tied to jetty had just about the same effect as fitting restrictor ie vacuum was increased

i better come clean about how I know all this. I spent ages and I mean truly ages trying to source a small oil leak. Most evenings on a 2 month cruise i’m anal like that.I found it but that’s another story

hope this helps and thanks for your help I just wish op could give a bit more info

 

I'm in a slightly different situation but interested. We replaced a sick Beta JD3 (huge blowby) when we got our boat. The new engine has now done 13,000 hours and a bit of blowby has just started to set in. I am watching it closely.  I am surprised at your vacuum figures, that must be the restrictor?  My only source of vacuum can be the air filter and I suspect its much much less than what you quote but have not measured it.

[Peugeot 106]

My figure are measured off my engine  or as quoted in the LPW engine manual. I don’t know if it’s the same for any other engine. I do know that the vacuum is supposed to decrease after around 10,000 hours. 

This is getting above my pay grade I suggest you contact the Beta people! Sorry but i’m not an expert just trying to be helpful

[dmr]

5 minutes ago, Peugeot 106 said:

My figure are measured off my engine  or as quoted in the LPW engine manual. I don’t know if it’s the same for any other engine. I do know that the vacuum is supposed to decrease after around 10,000 hours. 

This is getting above my pay grade I suggest you contact the Beta people! Sorry but i’m not an expert just trying to be helpful

 

Just sharing what I know, cus thats what forums are for. I fear that I now know more about the JD3 than Beta do, I hope that's not the case but it probly is.

[Peugeot 106]

Agreed. I asked Lister Petter if they did the vacuum test routinely on manufacture. I’m not convinced that they do.

The last version of the manual got pressure mixed up with vacuum which is why I asked them. The newest version states 10mm pressure rather than 10mm vacuum.

I only realised that after asking Beta what they expected off their engines and guessed the manual was in error

you have to be careful. If you are learning all is not obvious which can really throw you and is why I have been trying to persuade the OP to carry out the simple “ non evasive” checks first and narrow the problem down. It shouldn’t take him long if he has a few basic tools. Maybe he can report back before he takes the head off which to me is the next logical thing if all the other checks are dead ends

These days it’s all plug and play. I’m more used to Seagull outboards!

[Eeyore]

I seem to recall that the rather complicated crankcase cover joint has some involvement in crankcase vacuum on the LPW/LPWS engines. A failed/poorly fitted gasket can raise crankcase pressure.

[dmr]

9 minutes ago, Peugeot 106 said:

Agreed. I asked Lister Petter if they did the vacuum test routinely on manufacture. I’m not convinced that they do.

The last version of the manual got pressure mixed up with vacuum which is why I asked them. The newest version states 10mm pressure rather than 10mm vacuum.

I only realised that after asking Beta what they expected off their engines and guessed the manual was in error

you have to be careful. If you are learning all is not obvious which can really throw you and is why I have been trying to persuade the OP to carry out the simple “ non evasive” checks first and narrow the problem down. It shouldn’t take him long if he has a few basic tools. Maybe he can report back before he takes the head off which to me is the next logical thing if all the other checks are dead ends

These days it’s all plug and play. I’m more used to Seagull outboards!

 

😀 Many happy hours and a few scary one.

[Steve56]

9 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

Tony's comment.

 

I would never expect a significant vacuum in a modern diesel crank case which is what I think you are talking about because the inlet is really not restricted so getting  a positive crankcase purge would only happen at higher speeds.  The fact that this engine has a modified air cleaner with less restriction than when originally fitted might be a factor if oil mist can be blown up into the rocker covers. However the SR/SLs did not seem to suffer in that way to any significant extent.

 

I wonder if this engine has glazed its bores or has never ben properly run in since overhaul so it suffers more crank case pressure than typical.

As you say this could be a problem. The LPWS range of engines had a bit of a name for bore glazing. In fact at one point lister would actually supply the engine pre filled with running in oil which was used until the first oil change. If I can put my hands on the technical bulletin about oils I will post here.