Diesel fitter

[Chambo]

Hi 

can anyone recommend a good diesel fitter, preferably with Lister experience, in the East Midlands 

thanks in anticipation.

 

[Alan de Enfield]

Just now, Chambo said:

Hi 

can anyone recommend a good diesel fitter, preferably with Lister experience, in the East Midlands 

thanks in anticipation.

 

 

Maybe engine model would help.

There is a big difference in person needed for a 'modern' water cooled LPWS4 and for a vintage 'rattly air-cooled' one. Both Listers.

[matty40s]

Try Primrose Engineering, or PM 

 

[Chambo]

35 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Maybe engine model would help.

There is a big difference in person needed for a 'modern' water cooled LPWS4 and for a vintage 'rattly air-cooled' one. Both Listers.

Yes point taken, it’s actually a LPWS4 engine although from 1993 I’d hardly call it modern 

34 minutes ago, matty40s said:

Try Primrose Engineering, or PM 

 

Thanks but already tried them

[MtB]

Might be an idea to mention what needs doing.

 

Is it failing to start? Or are you looking for a crank regrind, a rebore, new pistons, head rebuild etc? Or something in between?

[Chambo]

26 minutes ago, MtB said:

Might be an idea to mention what needs doing.

 

Is it failing to start? Or are you looking for a crank regrind, a rebore, new pistons, head rebuild etc? Or something in between?

No it starts, runs, doesn’t burn oil, was completely reconditioned three years ago but has smoked ever since, even had the ‘new’ injectors changed post rebuild, cured it for a bit but last time out was smoking again!

[TheBiscuits]

20 minutes ago, Chambo said:

No it starts, runs, doesn’t burn oil, was completely reconditioned three years ago but has smoked ever since, even had the ‘new’ injectors changed post rebuild, cured it for a bit but last time out was smoking again!

 

How often and for how long does the engine get run at speed and load?

 

How old is the fuel and how clean is the exhaust system?

 

What colour is the smoke?

[Alan de Enfield]

1 hour ago, Chambo said:

Yes point taken, it’s actually a LPWS4 engine although from 1993 I’d hardly call it modern 

 

That's a modern Lister.

 

As you do - I actually have a complete marinised 'spare'  LPWS4 in my shed' (along with a rebuilt PRM 150 gearbox)

[Tony Brooks]

I think that engine uses hydraulic valve lifters so:

 

Were they cleaned during the overhaul?

Was the oil pump measured for wear during the overhaul?

Has the oil pressure been measured by a mechanical test gauge an dis it at or above the Lister minimum valve?

Are you doing oil and filter changes at the Lister intervals or less?

Are you using the correct API spec. and SAE viscosity oil?

 

Although I suspect a good thrashing on a river may help it just might be some valve lifters playing up.

[Chambo]

1 hour ago, Tony Brooks said:

I think that engine uses hydraulic valve lifters so:

 

Were they cleaned during the overhaul?

Was the oil pump measured for wear during the overhaul?

Has the oil pressure been measured by a mechanical test gauge an dis it at or above the Lister minimum valve?

Are you doing oil and filter changes at the Lister intervals or less?

Are you using the correct API spec. and SAE viscosity oil?

 

Although I suspect a good thrashing on a river may help it just might be some valve lifters playing up.

I’ve just checked the invoice for the rebuild, it had new hydraulic tappers, push rods, rockers, inlet and exhaust valves, cylinder head chemically cleaned and reconditioned, crank re ground, new bearings etc. etc., it was a comprehensive rebuild. Unfortunately I don’t know to what extent the oil pump was checked/tested but the engine does have good oil pressure on the gauge fitted on the control panel. I do regular oil changes (in excess of what Lister recommends) and I always use the recommended oil and a good quality filter. I would add that you are correct in so much as when the engine has a good thrash on the river the smoke disappears but soon comes back when just plodding up the canals.

[Chambo]

2 hours ago, TheBiscuits said:

 

How often and for how long does the engine get run at speed and load?

 

How old is the fuel and how clean is the exhaust system?

 

What colour is the smoke?

The engine only really gets run at speed and load is when it’s on the river, most of the time is spent on the canals probably running at 12 - 1400 rpm on a good day. As for the fuel I fill up when required so at most I would say probably at the start of the season 4 to 6 months old.

As for the exhaust, the boats 28 years old! Smoke is black by the way

 

[TheBiscuits]

1 minute ago, Chambo said:

The engine only really gets run at speed and load is when it’s on the river, most of the time is spent on the canals probably running at 12 - 1400 rpm on a good day. As for the fuel I fill up when required so at most I would say probably at the start of the season 4 to 6 months old.

As for the exhaust, the boats 28 years old! Smoke is black by the way

 

 

Do more river work, fit a smaller prop or deliberately leave a "normal" prop foul in place so the engine is worked harder at canal speeds :D

[Tony Brooks]

This may sound a bit off the wall but I wonder if the exhaust & silencer is partially blocked causing excess back pressure. When I changed my 20 year old standard silencer for a new "almost hospital" one it cleaned the exhaust up no end. Despite yours being indirect injected (according to Google) I suspect at canal speed and load the silencers gradually carbon up. The back pressure would tend to limit the amount of fresh air that can be drawn into the engine causing poor combustion and potentially blackish smoke.

 

The same would be true if there are not enough engine bay venting to ensure plenty of fresh cool air can get in.

 

If you are brave enough see if you can disconnect the exhaust from the manifold or silencer and run the engine. It will be very noisy so don't try it in a marina, bit if the smoke is less it points to a blocked exhaust.

[Tracy D'arth]

Probably over propped. 

[Tony Brooks]

Just now, Tracy D'arth said:

Probably over propped. 

and if so driven too hard.

[Chambo]

27 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:

Probably over propped. 

 

27 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

and if so driven too hard.

Same prop as when I brought the boat, didn’t smoke then!

31 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

This may sound a bit off the wall but I wonder if the exhaust & silencer is partially blocked causing excess back pressure. When I changed my 20 year old standard silencer for a new "almost hospital" one it cleaned the exhaust up no end. Despite yours being indirect injected (according to Google) I suspect at canal speed and load the silencers gradually carbon up. The back pressure would tend to limit the amount of fresh air that can be drawn into the engine causing poor combustion and potentially blackish smoke.

 

The same would be true if there are not enough engine bay venting to ensure plenty of fresh cool air can get in.

 

If you are brave enough see if you can disconnect the exhaust from the manifold or silencer and run the engine. It will be very noisy so don't try it in a marina, bit if the smoke is less it points to a blocked exhaust.

Certainly something to think about

 

[Peugeot 106]

I have an lpws2 and have the manual in front of me

 

Troubleshooting section says

1) overload. But unless your prop is fouled unlikely

2) chooked air filter. Whip it off. One bolt and pull it off and see if it makes any difference

3) inlet air temp too high. Not in this weather if it is ok normally!

4) water in fuel system. Suck some out of the bottom of tank it should be clear like a good pint not cloudy. I had a problem with this when I didn’t dewater the tank after winter and it was shaken up on the boat lift

5) unsuitable fuel. 

 

I also suggest you make sure you haven’t too much oilwhich can cause blue smoke. Other causes of blue smoke are generally I think a worn out engine

On start up my lpws2 blows a puff of black smoke as it does if you change revs quickly. I think it’s caused by too much fuel briefly while the governor catches up. After that it runs with no smoke even when overloaded ( I am overpropped and can only get 2200 rpm although I cruise at 1600 to 2000) 

 

Good Luck

 

 

 

[Peugeot 106]

Should have said water in fuel will probably make it difficult to start. I’d try the air filter first. If it is blocked you will not be burning all the fuel and it will be coming out black although it would get worse when you increase the revs

 

if if was overpropped you would expect the smoke to decrease at lower revs

 

its a bit of a sod if it’s the governor as it’s not easy to access as it’s at the front of the engine. It’s also a bit difficult to fiddle about with and you really must read the manual carefully.  Somebody else may be able to help but if the governor weights are sticking that could cause smoking (too much fuel) or the springs may be misbehaving. The governor is not the most robust and can stick.

 

as I understand it black smoke is generally fuel and not too serious.

[Tacet]

I had the injectors serviced by a reputable company to see if a bit of smoke could be eliminated - only to make the smoke much worse.

 

After loads of work (and expense) on the injection pump and other fiddling by an authorised repairer, with the great help of RLWP of Primrose Engineering, we worked out that the wrong nozzles had been put in the injectors.

 

The big mistake was my assumption that I had done something really stupid, which is almost always the case.  In a way it was true - inasmuch as that assumption was stupid.  With hindsight, I should have stuck with the fundamental observation that the engine smoked much more following the work on the injectors. 

[Chambo]

4 minutes ago, Peugeot 106 said:

Should have said water in fuel will probably make it difficult to start. I’d try the air filter first. If it is blocked you will not be burning all the fuel and it will be coming out black although it would get worse when you increase the revs

 

if if was overpropped you would expect the smoke to decrease at lower revs

 

its a bit of a sod if it’s the governor as it’s not easy to access as it’s at the front of the engine. It’s also a bit difficult to fiddle about with and you really must read the manual carefully.  Somebody else may be able to help but if the governor weights are sticking that could cause smoking (too much fuel) or the springs may be misbehaving. The governor is not the most robust and can stick.

 

as I understand it black smoke is generally fuel and not too serious.

thanks for your thoughts, I can safely rule out the air filter and the governor and springs were overhauled with the engine three years ago.

[Alan de Enfield]

You have not replaced the air filter in 3 years ?

 

 

12 minutes ago, Chambo said:

thanks for your thoughts, I can safely rule out the air filter and the governor and springs were overhauled with the engine three years ago.

 

[Chambo]

15 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

You have not replaced the air filter in 3 years ?

 

 

 

Its not had an air filter in (other than a circle of sheet qauze ) since I brought the boat almost twenty years ago!

[Alan de Enfield]

OK, the piece of gauze was overhauled 3 years ago.

 

Have you removed it, washed and replaced it in the last 3 years ?

 

Muck, fluff and even carbon can accumulate it only takes a little in each 'hole' in the gauze to affect the air supply.

[Peugeot 106]

I’m no expert but i’d check the fuel and then take the head off after checking the exhaust as suggested by someone else. It’s not a big job, i’ve done it and i’m no expert, and you can get a decoke gasket set easily. Then you can check the valves, push rod straightness, bore and piston and rings condition. You never know what you may find. I’m assuming the injectors and pumps were serviced properly. If you take the pumps out READ the manual it’s easy to bend the governor arm or lose the setting. There is a good youtube video explaining this.

You need to drain the coolant so put it in a bucket and then reuse it. You don’t need to drain the oil. You need a torque wrench. At least head off will rule out quite a lot. 

i can forward the manual and parts list to you if you pm me.

you MUST follow the manual and leave the hydraulic tappets time to settle - they are different from normal ones but easier as you don’t have to adjust them.

i believe that the pushrods can be bent by either fitting them incorrectly (not letting them settle) or by thrashing the engine

I suggest checking the fuel, then running without the exhaust though its odd its not worse at high revs, then off with its head. 

I studied the manual carefully, printed the relevant pages and crossed out the bits that didn’t apply to me. Only thing different to the manual I didn’t take the injectors out. To do this you need a special tool or you can modify a deep socket but I left them in. Just take the feed (steel) and return (rubber) pipes off and don’t bash them.

just remembered you need a big socket to get the flywheel pulley off so you can get the water pump off if yours is held on by a left hand thread nut.i borrowed socket and massive torque wrench from agricultural merchant 

hope this helps. As I’ve said i’m No expert but I also have a LPW i’m rebuilding . I bought it cheap with a broken piston ring so it’s off for a rebore. I’ll be asking for help when I can’t get it back together!

all best

i’m hoping that one of the resident experts will shout out if I am giving you bad advice but we Alpha lads have to help one another. Head off and back on is only a mornings work.

 

 

[Chambo]

9 hours ago, Peugeot 106 said:

I’m no expert but i’d check the fuel and then take the head off after checking the exhaust as suggested by someone else. It’s not a big job, i’ve done it and i’m no expert, and you can get a decoke gasket set easily. Then you can check the valves, push rod straightness, bore and piston and rings condition. You never know what you may find. I’m assuming the injectors and pumps were serviced properly. If you take the pumps out READ the manual it’s easy to bend the governor arm or lose the setting. There is a good youtube video explaining this.

You need to drain the coolant so put it in a bucket and then reuse it. You don’t need to drain the oil. You need a torque wrench. At least head off will rule out quite a lot. 

i can forward the manual and parts list to you if you pm me.

you MUST follow the manual and leave the hydraulic tappets time to settle - they are different from normal ones but easier as you don’t have to adjust them.

i believe that the pushrods can be bent by either fitting them incorrectly (not letting them settle) or by thrashing the engine

I suggest checking the fuel, then running without the exhaust though its odd its not worse at high revs, then off with its head. 

I studied the manual carefully, printed the relevant pages and crossed out the bits that didn’t apply to me. Only thing different to the manual I didn’t take the injectors out. To do this you need a special tool or you can modify a deep socket but I left them in. Just take the feed (steel) and return (rubber) pipes off and don’t bash them.

just remembered you need a big socket to get the flywheel pulley off so you can get the water pump off if yours is held on by a left hand thread nut.i borrowed socket and massive torque wrench from agricultural merchant 

hope this helps. As I’ve said i’m No expert but I also have a LPW i’m rebuilding . I bought it cheap with a broken piston ring so it’s off for a rebore. I’ll be asking for help when I can’t get it back together!

all best

i’m hoping that one of the resident experts will shout out if I am giving you bad advice but we Alpha lads have to help one another. Head off and back on is only a mornings work.

 

 

All very good advice but if you refer back to my reply to Tony Brooks the engine was fully reconditioned three years ago. Thanks for the offer but I have a workshop manual.