Lpg water heater

[pollip]

I'm looking for an lpg water heater for my narrowboat, approx 12 ish liters per minute. I'm not to bothered what sort, budget of up to £600 odd aslong as it's suitable for a boat and a safe good piece of kit, I WOULD LIKE IT TO HAVE A REMOVABLE FLUE ON THE OUTSIDE FOR LOW BRIDGES. There's so many out there and really not that much information about them. I've no idea what I'm looking at really so any pointers tips would be brill. Preferably no pilot light and ran off of batts for ignition aswell as room sealed but I can't seem to find a suitable room sealed unit. I'm open to the prices of morcos aswell as the cheaper forcali cointras etc. I'm on shore power so could run ac or 12v feed, I also have the capability to run it while not on shore power if I did choose and ac fed one. The morcos only seem to be 35w ish with the inverter losses that's about 3.5ah which isn't alot considering it will be ran to wash dishes and a quick shower for 2 people. tia

[Tracy D'arth]

Difficult requirements with the current BSS.

[pollip]

What is the current bss ?. I've searched posts on here and the Facebook forums, about as much as I dug up was open flued systems can still be installed until such a time that a suitable replacement becomes available. From what I can see upon Google lpg water heaters a suitable replacement hasn't yet really been made. Bar the likes of say the morco eup11rs which I assume would be a suitable replacement but needing a 230v feed makes life a wee bit trickier than requiring a 12v feed or just some hefty replaceable batts

[Tracy D'arth]

A-de-E will shortly quote you the complete text of the requirements for LPG water heaters - new installations - on boats.

[pollip]

1 minute ago, Tracy D'arth said:

A-de-E will shortly quote you the complete text of the requirements for LPG water heaters - new installations - on boats.

Marvelous.. although what a-de-E ?, lol

[pollip]

5 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:

A-de-E will shortly quote you the complete text of the requirements for LPG water heaters - new installations - on boats.

So if its difficult to do what are the other alternatives to instant hot water on a boat??. I've currently got a webasto thermo top c but the thermo top c is knackered and the calorifier has split so I need to replace them both but can't be bothered to wait 1.5 hours for 44 litres of hot water so looking for instant hot water or all but instant 

[David Mack]

2 hours ago, pollip said:

what are the other alternatives to instant hot water on a boat??.

Calorifier heated by engine cooling water.

[pollip]

21 minutes ago, David Mack said:

Calorifier heated by engine cooling water.

I've got a air cooler engine so that's a no go, and also that's pretty far from instant hot water 🤣

[TheBiscuits]

2 hours ago, pollip said:

can't be bothered to wait 1.5 hours for 44 litres of hot water

 

If you're doing it right you only do that once after commissioning the system if you're a liveaboard.  Leisure boaters do it once each trip if they are away from the boat for days/weeks/months between visits.

 

Once you've got a tank of hot water you keep it hot by running your engine/ webastospacher/ immersion heater so it's ready the next time you need hot water.

 

You shouldn't need to wait a couple of hours every day for hot water.

[Alan de Enfield]

1 minute ago, TheBiscuits said:

You shouldn't need to wait a couple of hours every day for hot water.

 

Unless you are planning to be in London and join the NBTA, then 'all bets are off'.

[TheBiscuits]

2 minutes ago, pollip said:

I've got a air cooler engine so that's a no go,

 

Ah, ok.  LPG water heaters made a lot more sense at a fiver a refill than they do at forty quid a refill.  Get a diesel heater - I'd say webasto but others are available - and keep hot water on tap.

 

Or just suck it up and boil a kettle when you need hot water 

 

3 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Unless you are planning to be in London and join the NBTA, then 'all bets are off'.

 

Nah, a lot of the don't movers have webastospachers so hot water is easy.  Despite appearances

 

[pollip]

1 minute ago, TheBiscuits said:

 

If you're doing it right you only do that once after commissioning the system if you're a liveaboard.  Leisure boaters do it once each trip if they are away from the boat for days/weeks/months between visits.

 

Once you've got a tank of hot water you keep it hot by running your engine/ webastospacher/ immersion heater so it's ready the next time you need hot water.

 

You shouldn't need to wait a couple of hours every day for hot water.

Well that's the theory of it, in practical terms though I don't do prior planning. I do have this feeling I would end up waiting round everyday to wait for water to heat up so i can shower. We don't actually have a shower fitted atm but it's nearly done but I tend to shower first thing in the morning to wake myself up. Qwe are live aboards with currently a 44litre leaky tank and a broken webasto and an air cooled engine so not hot water from the engine. I'm in the process of pricing up a new tank and fixing the webasto against an lpg heater fitted by a certified person. I originally wanted to fit a lpg heater but regretably opted for a webasto, I care not for the heat I'll get from the radiators so the only pro from having one isn't actually a pro for me. All it is to me is one gives me as much instant hot water as I want the other I'll get probably 55 litres of hot water in approx 1.5 hours 🤷‍♂️. It seems like a no brainer really and I can see both costing probably about the same by the time I've bought a new hot water tank

4 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

 

Ah, ok.  LPG water heaters made a lot more sense at a fiver a refill than they do at forty quid a refill.  Get a diesel heater - I'd say webasto but others are available - and keep hot water on tap.

 

Or just suck it up and boil a kettle when you need hot water 

 

 

Nah, a lot of the don't movers have webastospachers so hot water is easy.  Despite appearances

 

I am currently boiling a kettle for the dishes tbh and the amount of hot water we would actually use is rather negligible against the price of a bottle although I do appreciate a webasto would be cheaper to run. I do have a thermo top c fitted but it's broken and so is my cylinder-_-, which is why I'm looking for a new system 

[TheBiscuits]

3 minutes ago, pollip said:

All it is to me is one gives me as much instant hot water as I want

 

Just wait until the gas runs out when you're stood in the shower in January ... but don't ask me how I know this ...

 

At least with a calorifier it gradually gets cooler rather than instantly drops to about 5 degrees.  Invigorating doesn't come close!

[pollip]

That won't be as bad as my in a Bush atm fed straight from a cold hosepipe stood in my swimming shorts 😱. If I was to fix the webasto I'd put it on a heat exchanger if that's the right word to get all bit instant hot water and skip out the hot water cylinder. It's not been done that much but I do know of someone with it fitted and it works perfect

[MtB]

5 hours ago, TheBiscuits said:

 

Just wait until the gas runs out when you're stood in the shower in January ... but don't ask me how I know this ...

 

I've been boating for 45 years and every boat I've ever owned has had an instantaneous gas water heater and staggeringly, this has (so far) NEVER happened to me.

 

Since I noticed this about 35 years ago, I've feel like I've been boating and showering on borrowed time!

 

 

[MtB]

8 hours ago, Tracy D'arth said:

Difficult requirements with the current BSS.

 

In what way? 

 

I think there are no problems with an open flue instantaneous water heater meeting the BSS requirements, so I'd be interested to hear what you are saying might make one fail the BSS examination. Absence of CE marking perhaps? Maybe fitting a second hand Morco or Paloma would get around this.

 

The RCR/RCD and a different kettle of fish though, but given the OP has an air-cooled engine, it seems highly unlikely his boat falls under the RCR or RCD regulations. 

[Alan de Enfield]

3 hours ago, MtB said:

I think there are no problems with an open flue instantaneous water heater meeting the BSS requirements,

 

 

Correct.

For many years there has been a derogation in force allowing the use of open-flue instananeous water heaters on the proviso that it was only until realistic alternatives 'room sealed' became readily available on the market.

That derogation is currently still in force, but I am led to believe that it may soon change as the BSS are reviewing the available room-sealed water heaters to see if they are "direct equivalents, and readily available'.

 

 

The derogation :

 

There is a growing recognition of the risks associated with the use of non room-sealed gas appliances when used in confined spaces such as boats. These risks include poisoning and suffocation to individuals on board from improperly flued and ventilated appliances. So new LPG appliances must be room sealed, except where room-sealing is not physically possible, i.e. cooking appliances.

There is one specific exception to this rule and this is for LPG instantaneous water heaters. Based on the good previous safety record of these particular appliances, and until such a time as a room-sealed direct replacement becomes easily available, British Waterways and the Environment Agency accept the continued installation of instantaneous water heaters on private boats. If you are changing your non-room sealed instantaneous water heater it's strongly recommended that you consider room sealed alternatives.

 

As you are aware, the rules on type and location may well be very different if the OP is a liveaboard and the GSIUR regulation are involved.

As you are "The Boiler Man", would this be the relevant section for installation / location guidance ?

 

Room-sealed appliances 30.—

(1) No person shall install a gas appliance in a room used or intended to be used as a bathroom or a shower room unless it is a room-sealed appliance.

 

(2) No person shall install a gas fire, other gas space heater or a gas water heater of more than 14 kilowatt gross heat input in a room used or intended to be used as sleeping accommodation unless the appliance is a room-sealed appliance.

 

(3) No person shall install a gas fire, other gas space heater or a gas water heater of 14 kilowatt gross heat input or less in a room used or intended to be used as sleeping accommodation and no person shall install an instantaneous water heater unless (in each case)—

(a) it is a room-sealed appliance; or

(b) it incorporates a safety control designed to shut down the appliance before there is a build up of a dangerous quantity of the products of combustion in the room concerned.

 

(4) The references in paragraphs (1) to (3) to a room used or intended to be used for the purpose therein referred to includes a reference to—

(a) a cupboard or compartment within such a room; or

(b) a cupboard, compartment or space adjacent to such a room if there is an air vent from the cupboard, compartment or space into such a room.

[MtB]

Yes it is widely understood in the world of land-based gas engineering that open flued appliances are not to be installed in sleeping areas or bath/shower rooms.  Such restrictions also apply to boats used as dwellings as they fall within the scope of the Gas Safety (Installation and Use) regulations 1998, as amended. 

 

Few people working on gas on boats used as dwellings seem aware of this.

[system 4-50]

2 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

These risks include poisoning and suffocation to individuals on board from improperly flued and ventilated appliances.

Ok, so now we ban everything that can be a risk if improperly installed???   That would appear to include all diesel and all electrical systems?

[Alan de Enfield]

2 minutes ago, system 4-50 said:

Ok, so now we ban everything that can be a risk if improperly installed???   That would appear to include all diesel and all electrical systems?

 

That is from the BSS. "You" wanted the BSS, you reap what you sow.

If folks cannot be relied on to keep their boats maintained to a reasonable level then you get things like the BSS.

Maybe the rule should be that you cannot DIY anything 'risky' and need to get a certificate from a qualified person to show it has been done proprly.

 

Maybe folks on 'coastal' boats don't tinker as much as inland boaters, but (as I'm sure you know) there are no such requirements for boats that are not on AINA waters and considering there are (probably) 10x, or more coastal leisure boats than 'canal boats' the accident rate is much lower.

[MtB]

9 minutes ago, system 4-50 said:

Ok, so now we ban everything that can be a risk if improperly installed???   That would appear to include all diesel and all electrical systems?

 

 

And even more weirdly, they still intend to ban them despite this:

 

 

2 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Based on the good previous safety record of these particular appliances,

 

[cheesegas]

11 hours ago, TheBiscuits said:

 

Just wait until the gas runs out when you're stood in the shower in January ... but don't ask me how I know this ...

 

At least with a calorifier it gradually gets cooler rather than instantly drops to about 5 degrees.  Invigorating doesn't come close!

Always have two bottles with a changeover regulator...happened to me once before, it's definitely mildly unpleasant, wrapping up in a towel to hop out the back door and flip the lever for the regulator. Hardly awful though, and I'd much rather instant hot water than waiting for it to heat up, or having to time showers with anyone else that lives on the boat so you don't use up all the hot water. 

 

Once the first bottle runs out, you have ample time to get it replaced, using the other one. A 13kg bottle lasts two of us 3 months at £37 for cooking and hot water which isn't too bad at all, considering we're not as careful as we could be about gas usage!

[system 4-50]

12 minutes ago, cheesegas said:

Always have two bottles with a changeover regulator...happened to me once before, it's definitely mildly unpleasant, wrapping up in a towel to hop out the back door and flip the lever for the regulator. Hardly awful though, and I'd much rather instant hot water than waiting for it to heat up, or having to time showers with anyone else that lives on the boat so you don't use up all the hot water. 

 

Once the first bottle runs out, you have ample time to get it replaced, using the other one. A 13kg bottle lasts two of us 3 months at £37 for cooking and hot water which isn't too bad at all, considering we're not as careful as we could be about gas usage!

and with 4 bottles you get an even better flavour of hot water!

[agg221]

3 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

Correct.

For many years there has been a derogation in force allowing the use of open-flue instananeous water heaters on the proviso that it was only until realistic alternatives 'room sealed' became readily available on the market.

That derogation is currently still in force, but I am led to believe that it may soon change as the BSS are reviewing the available room-sealed water heaters to see if they are "direct equivalents, and readily available'.

 

Could this be summarised as 'anyone thinking of installing a Morco had better get on with it?

Alec

[Alan de Enfield]

30 minutes ago, agg221 said:

 

Could this be summarised as 'anyone thinking of installing a Morco had better get on with it?

Alec

 

I wouldn't like to say - you can put whatever interpretation on it that you wish.

 

If you are a liveaboard then the GSIUR 'trumps' the BSS anyway.