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New T&C's - merged thread


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32 minutes ago, Mike Todd said:

Other cases exist where an original requirement to hold and publysts which included addresses have been superseded by GDPR eg parish electoral rolls.

I believe the reform of electoral rolls predates GDPR.


In any event, CRT are not required by law to make its register publicly available in the same manner as the electoral register or the open register.

 

Edited by Allan(nb Albert)
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16 minutes ago, Allan(nb Albert) said:

I believe the reform of electoral rolls predates GDPR.


In any event, CRT are not required by law to make its register publicly available in the same manner as the electoral register or the open register.

 

 

And you have to pay C&RT 10p to view, and 10p per boat if you want copies of the owners & boat details

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22 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

And you have to pay C&RT 10p to view, and 10p per boat if you want copies of the owners & boat details

Just so. The right to have something does not mean the right to have it for free. Indeed, it was several decades ago that the principle of recovering the cost of a new right was passed on to the end user. That's why so many things from your local council now gave a charge, especially when it is a requirement to be licensed.  However, the charge has to relate to the actual cost and not with a profit.

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10 hours ago, Mike Todd said:

Just so. The right to have something does not mean the right to have it for free. Indeed, it was several decades ago that the principle of recovering the cost of a new right was passed on to the end user. That's why so many things from your local council now gave a charge, especially when it is a requirement to be licensed.  However, the charge has to relate to the actual cost and not with a profit.

I think we have to remember that 50 years ago, almost all records would have been paper based. Due to staff cost the onus would be placed on the public to attend an office and search through thousands of entries in a ledger that would be hand written and in chronological order. A charge would invariably be made for copying the entry.

 

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NABO asking questions of C&RT, particularly regarding the powers they are taking, and the fact that the new T&Cs are not the same as the consultation document (it looks as if C&RT are developing a bit of history  doing this - Ala changing the figures in the annual report AFTER it had been agreed and 'signed off'.

 

 

 

From NBW :

 

 

THE Association of Boat Owners (NABO)  has written to the Trust concerning the introduction of the revised terms for private boat licences.

NABO wants the introduction of the revised terms to be delayed until it has been consulted, and writes to Canal & River Trust. It's letter reading:

NABO is naturally disappointed that in the six months since our submission to CRT the Trust had made no effort to respond to the detailed points raised by NABO. Our submission reflected not just the views of NABO’s Council but was prepared after consulting our membership. We are forced to conclude that the Trust finds it easier to ignore a group of its customers than engage with them.

 

We note that the revised terms and conditions are materially different than the 2015 terms as well as those that were consulted upon. The fact that these revised terms have not been consulted upon and were introduced with six days’ notice is insulting to boaters.

 

The announcement of the revised terms offers no explanation of the legal basis of some of the more controversial changes. In particular NABO remains concerned over the Trust’s continued attempt to give itself powers not granted to it by the 1995 Act and yet boaters have no choice but to agree to them.

The 95 Act makes clear the responsibilities of boats with or without home moorings. The Trust’s revisions would appear to agree with only one aspect of this with no clear explanation as to why the Act should not apply in its entirety.

 

The 95 Act refers to one licence yet the Trust has now created two distinct licences dependent upon whether you have a home mooring or not. This has many potential implications but was not consulted upon nor fully explained. Could CRT confirm whether any of the boating associations or the Navigation Advisory Group was consulted and that they agreed with these new licences and the potential implications? CRT's commentary accompanying the implementation of the revised terms suggests that this was the case.

 

In conclusion NABO is disappointed that the Trust has chosen not to respond to our original comments and ask that it now do so promptly. We cannot support the introduction of the amended revised terms until the Trust has explained the legal basis for them. In the meantime we would urge a delay in their introduction until the Trust has consulted upon them.

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Edited by Alan de Enfield
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2 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

NABO asking questions of C&RT, particularly regarding the powers they are taking, and the fact that the new T&Cs are not the same as the consultation document (it looks as if C&RT are developing a bit of history  doing this - Ala changing the figures in the annual report AFTER it had been agreed and 'signed off'.

 

 

 

From NBW :

 

 

THE Association of Boat Owners (NABO)  has written to the Trust concerning the introduction of the revised terms for private boat licences.

NABO wants the introduction of the revised terms to be delayed until it has been consulted, and writes to Canal & River Trust. It's letter reading:

NABO is naturally disappointed that in the six months since our submission to CRT the Trust had made no effort to respond to the detailed points raised by NABO. Our submission reflected not just the views of NABO’s Council but was prepared after consulting our membership. We are forced to conclude that the Trust finds it easier to ignore a group of its customers than engage with them.

 

We note that the revised terms and conditions are materially different than the 2015 terms as well as those that were consulted upon. The fact that these revised terms have not been consulted upon and were introduced with six days’ notice is insulting to boaters.

 

The announcement of the revised terms offers no explanation of the legal basis of some of the more controversial changes. In particular NABO remains concerned over the Trust’s continued attempt to give itself powers not granted to it by the 1995 Act and yet boaters have no choice but to agree to them.

The 95 Act makes clear the responsibilities of boats with or without home moorings. The Trust’s revisions would appear to agree with only one aspect of this with no clear explanation as to why the Act should not apply in its entirety.

 

The 95 Act refers to one licence yet the Trust has now created two distinct licences dependent upon whether you have a home mooring or not. This has many potential implications but was not consulted upon nor fully explained. Could CRT confirm whether any of the boating associations or the Navigation Advisory Group was consulted and that they agreed with these new licences and the potential implications? CRT's commentary accompanying the implementation of the revised terms suggests that this was the case.

 

In conclusion NABO is disappointed that the Trust has chosen not to respond to our original comments and ask that it now do so promptly. We cannot support the introduction of the amended revised terms until the Trust has explained the legal basis for them. In the meantime we would urge a delay in their introduction until the Trust has consulted upon them.

  •  

I thought that the whole point of a consultation is so that changes can made based on feedback from consultees, before it becomes definitive. It would be unrealistic to keep- going around the consultation loop for every single change especially as it gives a veto to anyone who wants no change.

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Just received the following weird email purportedly from CaRT:

Quote

The Trust have made changes to its new Leisure Licence Terms and Conditions. Two conditions (previously 4.3 and 10.10) included in error have been removed. The full Terms & Conditions can be found here.

Best wishes,

Canal & River Trust Boat Licensing Team

I've removed the link as there is tracking in it.

Since the conditions that have been removed are no longer there it is hard to know what they were. A search of this thread suggests that 10.10 was a requirement not to carry advertising on the outside of the boat. What 4.3 might have been, I've no idea.

 

Included in error? What is that supposed to mean? Is it "We wanted to put them in, but people kicked up a stink and so we are pretending it never happened", or "No one at CaRT bothered to proof read it and all sorts of weird stuff sneaked in"?

 

Jen

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1 minute ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

Just received the following weird email purportedly from CaRT:

I've removed the link as there is tracking in it.

Since the conditions that have been removed are no longer there it is hard to know what they were. A search of this thread suggests that 10.10 was a requirement not to carry advertising on the outside of the boat. What 4.3 might have been, I've no idea.

 

Included in error? What is that supposed to mean? Is it "We wanted to put them in, but people kicked up a stink and so we are pretending it never happened", or "No one at CaRT bothered to proof read it and all sorts of weird stuff sneaked in"?

 

Jen

Something has been removed as there is now an error because 10.14 refers to conditions 10.13 and 10.14.

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This has been removed.

 

10.10.The Boat must not display an association with, or advertise, any company, business or service

without Our express consent in writing.

And...

 

4.3. You must provide details of persons Using the Boat at any given time upon request.

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2 hours ago, Rob-M said:

This has been removed.

 

10.10.The Boat must not display an association with, or advertise, any company, business or service

without Our express consent in writing.

And...

 

4.3. You must provide details of persons Using the Boat at any given time upon request.

I presume because someone realised the first was silly and the second illegal.

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36 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

I wouldn't have posted this if I had realised it was being discussed but it didnt show as a live therad

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Thank you NABO who have been quietly holding CRT to account, persuading them to review the poor readability, GDPR issues, the re-writing of 5.1 to make clearer the requirements for home moorers when they cruise as well as these ridiculous conditions that they have now removed. NABO continues to press for a further 4th (!) draft correcting or removing more new and non-consulted T&C's. These include the attempt to separate boat licences and boaters having to obey volunteers' instructions amongst others. This has been a shoddily produced document and if NABO had not held CRT to account, would have gone through in its first presentation. 

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1 hour ago, wandering snail said:

Thank you NABO who have been quietly holding CRT to account, persuading them to review the poor readability, GDPR issues, the re-writing of 5.1 to make clearer the requirements for home moorers when they cruise as well as these ridiculous conditions that they have now removed. NABO continues to press for a further 4th (!) draft correcting or removing more new and non-consulted T&C's. These include the attempt to separate boat licences and boaters having to obey volunteers' instructions amongst others. This has been a shoddily produced document and if NABO had not held CRT to account, would have gone through in its first presentation. 

A small victory but still a hell of a long way to go.

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19 hours ago, Rob-M said:

This has been removed.

 

10.10.The Boat must not display an association with, or advertise, any company, business or service

without Our express consent in writing.

And...

 

4.3. You must provide details of persons Using the Boat at any given time upon request.

the 10.10 was displaced from the section on Share boats.

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