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New T&C's - merged thread


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10 minutes ago, IanD said:

Hang on -- how can 3 different boats each declare the same mooring space as their home mooring without the club/marina or CART noticing? Surely the club would notice that space number 37 had 3 boats claiming it as home (and paying for it!), and so would CART? If a boat tells CART "I have a home mooring, it's space#37 at this club", surely CART check this with the club? It's basic paperwork...

If someone tells CRT they have a mooring at the farm where I moor, but don't actually have one, I can't see how the farmer would know unless CRT send him a list of registered boats. I've never seen a checker along our bit either. They'd pay their mooring fee to CRT, same as me and just say they'd nipped back before going back to London...

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36 minutes ago, IanD said:

Hang on -- how can 3 different boats each declare the same mooring space as their home mooring without the club/marina or CART noticing? Surely the club would notice that space number 37 had 3 boats claiming it as home (and paying for it!), and so would CART? If a boat tells CART "I have a home mooring, it's space#37 at this club", surely CART check this with the club? It's basic paperwork...

As renewal dates vary and boats move moorings, it must be at least be technically possible for multiple boats to properly claim that a particular spot is its home mooring. 

 

CRT would be rather busy monitoring each and every declaration; no doubt where it has its suspicions it can investigate but maintaining its records such that small anomalies are automatically identified as they occur seems would be a Herculean task.

 

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3 hours ago, cheshire~rose said:

Perhaps if every boater with the name of their boat builder, painter, chimney maker or whatever immediately cintacts them to request permission to have that name on show they may realise?

 

My licence carries the words "Canal and River Trust" on it.  Do I need special permission to display this? ;)

 

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14 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

 

My licence carries the words "Canal and River Trust" on it.  Do I need special permission to display this? ;)

 

 

Mine says British Waterways ?

As  I pay over £1000 for a licence AND have to print it out myself then I expect better than the low resolution blurred CRT logo on the licence download. I replaced it with a nice high res "bridge and bulrushes"

 

CRT are so into their corporate image I find it amazing that they have not fixed this yet.

 

We could be right in trouble as our boat is still signwritten as "The Fender Trader Company" from the previous owners, but as Gillie sells ropework we saw no pint in changing it, Not enough space for "The Tiller Tassle and Cabin String Trading Company". ?

 

..................Dave

 

 

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25 minutes ago, dmr said:

We could be right in trouble as our boat is still signwritten as "The Fender Trader Company" from the previous owners, but as Gillie sells ropework we saw no pint in changing it, Not enough space for "The Tiller Tassle and Cabin String Trading Company". ?

 

500ml now.

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34 minutes ago, dmr said:

Mine says British Waterways ?

As  I pay over £1000 for a licence AND have to print it out myself then I expect better than the low resolution blurred CRT logo on the licence download. I replaced it with a nice high res "bridge and bulrushes"

 

CRT are so into their corporate image I find it amazing that they have not fixed this yet.

 

Phew, not just me then. I had to print ours out as was first to the boat with new licence, noticed it was lo-res so extracted a vector version from the Boaters Handbook and used that in place so nice and sharp. I wasn’t brave enough to swap it out for anything different, maybe when we have our own boat i’ll regrow a pair :D 

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9 hours ago, wandering snail said:

Keep smiling very pleasantly at CRT volunteers and staff or you may lose your licence (10.17) or maybe have your phone on record for every interaction, just in case.

Any signwriting that names your boatbuilder (10.10) and for share boats (4.4.3)

Home moorers who nip to the pub and back staying overnight at weekends (5.1)

Helping out a stranded/broken down boat (10.11.1, 10.11.2)

Home moorers on CRT moorings/land who have storage sheds or anything at all outside their boats (11.6)

 

This is after a quick look, there's so much that is new and was not 'consulted' about. That's leaving aside the cost implications of separating the boat licence which was not mentioned at all in the 'consultation'.

As I said, what's to worry us?

Your first point is just silly. It's to outlaw abuse of CRT staff, which is fair enough. If I remember, one got killed recently.  Point two is obviously about if you're running a boat based business without it being registered with CRT.  Point three is simply untrue, as has been shown many times.  Pont four, well, if your insurance doesn't cover you for pulling a boat along, there's something wrong with it.  What damage do you expect to do with it that might not be covered?  And the last point is an interesting one.  Sheds are actually illegal as they count as structures and need planning permission, as we fouond out on one of my moorings when we had to take them all down.  They got spotted by the council helicopter! The  rest is an attempt to stop piles of rubbish accruing on the towpath moorings.

As I said, who is actually so badly incovenienced by these T&Cs, who is behaving in a sensible and considerate manner?  Most of the complaints are specious.

4 hours ago, IanD said:

So keeping on quoting the judge's finding (I've seen this at least a dozen times) as if it will stop CART changing the rules is pointless... ?

Yup.  It's because it appears to support their case, whatever that is.  An awful lot of this is wishful thinking masquerading as argument.  You can find a legal ruling somewhere to support almost any daft position you want to take.  That's why lawyers get rich, and why people who insist on using them, don't.

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8 hours ago, Ex Brummie said:

If some scrote decides to tell CaRT he moors at the club, how is the club supposed to know if CaRT don't tell them?

 

IS IT ME???????

Also, when someone leaves the club, do they bother telling CRT, and have CRT got a process in place to remove old boats from the lists.

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8 hours ago, Ex Brummie said:

If some scrote decides to tell CaRT he moors at the club, how is the club supposed to know if CaRT don't tell them?

 

IS IT ME???????

So do CART not check when somebody says "I have a home mooring at xxx" that they actually have one? Doesn't need inspectors or any big effort, just simple paperwork -- or emailwork nowadays. Alan said they do this, is this correct or not?

 

If they do then the situation you mention shouldn't happen. If they don't then it can, and they're effectively encouraging bridge-hopping by not doing their homework, and any change to the rules is pretty pointless unless they also check that too.

 

P.S. no need to SHOUT, nobody's getting at you, it's just there are two views on this, they can't both be right, and it matters as far as the proposed rule change is concerned which is what this thread is about ?

Edited by IanD
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9 minutes ago, matty40s said:

Also, when someone leaves the club, do they bother telling CRT, and have CRT got a process in place to remove old boats from the lists.

 

When we apply for our licence each year we have to give the details of our mooring. We have to apply for our mooring each year, it is a boat club mooring and if we have not kept our nose clean and followed the rules of the club then we could be refused a mooring.

The date of our licence application is not the same as the date of our mooring application and so the two can overlap by a long time before the next declaration to CRT where our mooring is.

There used to be a boat that bimbled up and down the canal making good use of the various 48 hour moorings on the canal (most of the moorings on The Chessie are 48 hour) Nice enough chap, kept himself to himself etc. Occasionally we would think pah! when we found him moored where we hoped to as some of the best moorings are only big enough for one boat but that's life....

then he joined the club and got himself a mooring and we thought we might get to know the guy but he continued to keep himself to himself (not a problem) and didn't really engage with the club much or give anything back to the club which is part of the T's and C's of havng a mooring there.

After a year he gave up his mooring and moved on. We don't know where to but the boat that replaced him were people who engaged with and became active members of the club.

Much later CRT contacted the club to check if he still had his mooring there.

Joining the dots we think his bobbing back and forth on one stretch of canal had brought his activity into the spotlight of CRT so he took the mooring so he could get his 12 months licence then continued to declare it as his home mooring long after he had actually left. In truth depending on when his licence was applied for he could have possibly gained an aadditional 11 months of declarartion of having a home mooring before the next licence was issued. Whether or not he then made a false declaration we won't ever know but these things can and do happen

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19 minutes ago, IanD said:

So do CART not check when somebody says "I have a home mooring at xxx" that they actually have one?

I'm sure CRT will do spot checks, but they won't check 100%.

But what they can't practically do is a realtime check on the home mooring, when a licence is applied for, before issuing the licence.

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35 minutes ago, cheshire~rose said:

 

When we apply for our licence each year we have to give the details of our mooring. We have to apply for our mooring each year, it is a boat club mooring and if we have not kept our nose clean and followed the rules of the club then we could be refused a mooring.

The date of our licence application is not the same as the date of our mooring application and so the two can overlap by a long time before the next declaration to CRT where our mooring is.

There used to be a boat that bimbled up and down the canal making good use of the various 48 hour moorings on the canal (most of the moorings on The Chessie are 48 hour) Nice enough chap, kept himself to himself etc. Occasionally we would think pah! when we found him moored where we hoped to as some of the best moorings are only big enough for one boat but that's life....

then he joined the club and got himself a mooring and we thought we might get to know the guy but he continued to keep himself to himself (not a problem) and didn't really engage with the club much or give anything back to the club which is part of the T's and C's of havng a mooring there.

After a year he gave up his mooring and moved on. We don't know where to but the boat that replaced him were people who engaged with and became active members of the club.

Much later CRT contacted the club to check if he still had his mooring there.

Joining the dots we think his bobbing back and forth on one stretch of canal had brought his activity into the spotlight of CRT so he took the mooring so he could get his 12 months licence then continued to declare it as his home mooring long after he had actually left. In truth depending on when his licence was applied for he could have possibly gained an aadditional 11 months of declarartion of having a home mooring before the next licence was issued. Whether or not he then made a false declaration we won't ever know but these things can and do happen

Getting a home mooring completely resets any enforcement process and proceedings completely back to square 1.

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1 hour ago, matty40s said:

Also, when someone leaves the club, do they bother telling CRT, and have CRT got a process in place to remove old boats from the lists.

CaRT have only checked our mooring list once in over 30 years, which is when we identified phantom declarations. Of the 25 or so listed, only 1 had ever had a mooring, and the rest were totally unknown to us. How are the club expected to know about this fraud?

Obviously, whatever system CaRT have to monitor this is not fit for purpose. 

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1 hour ago, Ex Brummie said:

CaRT have only checked our mooring list once in over 30 years, which is when we identified phantom declarations. Of the 25 or so listed, only 1 had ever had a mooring, and the rest were totally unknown to us. How are the club expected to know about this fraud?

Obviously, whatever system CaRT have to monitor this is not fit for purpose. 

Obviously not. Maybe that's the real reason they want to get rid of the "home moorers can bridge-hop" exception, they can't tell if people are actually entitled to do this or not, but if they make the CC rules the same for everyone they don't have to...

2 hours ago, David Mack said:

I'm sure CRT will do spot checks, but they won't check 100%.

But what they can't practically do is a realtime check on the home mooring, when a licence is applied for, before issuing the licence.

I don't see why they can't check 100%, all it takes is an email to whoever own the home mooring they claim to be using -- and they could easily insist that the boater applying for the license gives them this information.

 

If they can do that, surely they can also do it in semi-realtime before issuing a license?

 

However it seems that they don't bother doing any of this in most (all?) cases...

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41 minutes ago, IanD said:

I don't see why they can't check 100%, all it takes is an email to whoever own the home mooring they claim to be using -- and they could easily insist that the boater applying for the license gives them this information.

 

 

Surely any decent excel user could make two spreadsheets cross compare.

 

List of boaters claiming home moorings and specifying their mooring site Vs List of Moorers / boat numbers declared by moorings owners.

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11 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Surely any decent excel user could make two spreadsheets cross compare.

 

List of boaters claiming home moorings and specifying their mooring site Vs List of Moorers / boat numbers declared by moorings owners.

Yes it should be simple and very cheap (free?) to do, if only you can be bothered...

 

[surely CART must have both lots of information already to be able to license boats and moorings?]

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The 1965 Act is very clear what constitutes a home mooring. Surely if there is another vessel on the mooring it’s not available and therefore CRT can take enforcement action. If the mooring is confirmed as available then I would say you have a home mooring and you can cruise accordingly. 

 

(c)either—

(i)the Board are satisfied that a mooring or other place where the vessel can reasonably be kept and may lawfully be left will be available for the vessel, whether on an inland waterway or elsewhere; 

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To add to the confusion I can see how 2 boats could legitimately share the same mooring, I know a couple who work all summer and spend the winter boating, leaving a lovely mooring available for 4 months, a perfect winter mooring spot with power and water

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1 hour ago, Tuscan said:

The 1965 Act is very clear what constitutes a home mooring. Surely if there is another vessel on the mooring it’s not available......

 

(c)either—

(i)the Board are satisfied that a mooring or other place where the vessel can reasonably be kept and may lawfully be left will be available for the vessel, whether on an inland waterway or elsewhere; 

 

31383.jpg

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4 hours ago, David Mack said:

I'm sure CRT will do spot checks, but they won't check 100%.

But what they can't practically do is a realtime check on the home mooring, when a licence is applied for, before issuing the licence.

When we were in a marina the owner mentioned that the had just been asked (now I cant remember the details) if a) a list of boats moored there or b) to supply a list of the present moorers

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2 hours ago, IanD said:

 

I don't see why they can't check 100%, all it takes is an email to whoever own the home mooring they claim to be using -- and they could easily insist that the boater applying for the license gives them this information.

 

If they can do that, surely they can also do it in semi-realtime before issuing a license?

 

1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Surely any decent excel user could make two spreadsheets cross compare.

 

List of boaters claiming home moorings and specifying their mooring site Vs List of Moorers / boat numbers declared by moorings owners.

 

1 hour ago, IanD said:

Yes it should be simple and very cheap (free?) to do, if only you can be bothered...

 

[surely CART must have both lots of information already to be able to license boats and moorings?]

 

Anything requiring an email to the mooring operator is subject to the prompt response to that email. It isn't always going to happen. And it certainly doesn't allow real time processing of applications.

 

Cross comparing two lists is straightforward, but only if the data is recorded identically in each list. As soon as you get CRT referring to a location with one reference and the boat owner another, the comparison fails.

 

If this is a new or recent mooring at the time of licence application the CRT list may not yet have been updated with the new moorer's details.

 

So a cross comparison will include some matches, which enables an instant issue of the licence, but there will be many case where, through no fault of anyone involved, no match is found, requiring manual intervention to resolve things, plus a few cases where there is no match because the licence applicant has deliberately given false information. Is it really worth the cost and aggravation to CRT and the many boat owners in the second group to catch a few in the third?

I can imagine the outrage on here if a significant number of applicants were getting the "computer says no" response when they applied for a licence.

Edited by David Mack
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3 minutes ago, David Mack said:

So a cross comparison will include some matches, which enables an instant issue of the licence, but there will be many case where, through no fault of anyone involved, no match is found, requiring manual intervention to resolve things, plus a few cases where there is no match because the licence applicant has deliberately given false information. Is it really worth the cost and aggravation to CRT and the many boat owners in the second group to catch a few in the third?

I can imagine the outrage on here if a significant number of applicants were getting the "computer says no" response when they applied for a licence.

 

Does a licence have to be issued instantaneoulsy  ?

 

We may have got used to 'instant gratification' via the internet but does it matter if it takes a week ?

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