C&RT say don't empty your compost toilet in our bins.

[IanD]

30 minutes ago, Chagall said:

I agree, but many in this thread seem to think its an impossible dream and some like to ridicule those who hope as being rather stupid believers of Unicorns.  I think many would be prepared to pay, if it cost comparable to Haggis's pricing of £20 every six weeks for pumpout then Id consider getting one. Even if it cost far more for those with dry toilets it sounds like most would still pay it for the seeming benefits.  C&RT would eventually benefit if more and more were encouraged via waste bins especially provided for such waste.  The pilot scheme  for such is in its infancy but there is no reason to suggest why it would not flourish and proliferate.   

 

I do realise there will always be the few that spoil it for the many, but that happens in every single aspect of life. The few with dry toilets who use the system properly, or at least wish to,  could eventually eventually  number more than those with cassettes. 

 

I'll believe that most of the 70% of composters who bag'n'bin are willing to pay pumpout (or higher) prices when I see the evidence -- maybe Dora is, but one of the key points emphasized in all the blogs is that they're much cheaper to run because it costs nothing to get rid of the waste, so they're great for people on tight budgets -- meaning, a lot of the people who've moved onto the canals in the last few years because it's cheaper than living on land.

 

So it's likely that that a large proportion of the 70% -- or maybe fewer today if the claim that many have already stopped doing it is true, which also sounds unbelievable -- wouldn't be willing to pay, just like the fact that only a minority compost properly. Why should they pay when they can chuck it in the bin for free with pretty much zero chance of being found out?

 

If anyone claims otherwise, they're flying in the face of the evidence as well as human nature -- just like when they claimed "most boaters don't care" or "most boaters are in favour of composting toilets", which was shown to be false by the poll on this forum.

 

And as with so many pro-composting arguments, saying "me and my mates would pay" is anecdote, not evidence -- the important point is what would most composters do.

Edited August 16, 2021 by IanD

[Chagall]

1 minute ago, Idle Days said:

Are we forgetting the problem of correctly disposing of the liquid side of the "composting" toilet, a much more frequent operation than the disposing of the solids. 

No, it has been said in this thread numerous times of how to deal with the small bottles of liquid. The simplest being to tip a collection of them into an elsan unit already provided, and of course highly unlikely to ever block an elsan. 

[Idle Days]

1 minute ago, Chagall said:

No, it has been said in this thread numerous times of how to deal with the small bottles of liquid. The simplest being to tip a collection of them into an elsan unit already provided, and of course highly unlikely to ever block an elsan. 

Except that those containers I have seen are far from being "small bottles" and presumably will also have to be stored until one finds a working Elsan point.  Perhaps[s a large tank under the bed could be utilised in some way for this purpose? 

[IanD]

39 minutes ago, Chagall said:

Yes, it has been said time and time again, but those without long term composting plans had been encouraged by C&RT in the first place, rightly or wrongly. Now it is needed to rethink and plan on a different strategy of dealing with it. Those without land need to do something and if C&RT wont allow such bins then the private companies may at least provide drop it in facilities elsewhere. Lots of possibilities. However it does need encouragement rather than disdain and a call for outright banning from the braying mob. 

Yes it's been said time and time again by the composting enthusiasts, and it's not true -- read the relevant document.

 

In the very first sentence about these toilets, CART said that the waste should be composted onshore. They then said that if you couldn't do this it was permitted to use their bins if it was double-bagged. I don't see how anyone could see this as encouraging bag'n'binning ("go on, please do it, it'll be great for the environment!") unless they're wearing rose-tinted glasses...

 

[go and look up the definitions of "encourage" and "permit" -- this isn't just pedantry, it's a basic difference in meaning -- and the meaning CART probably intended was "in an emergency it is permitted..." but unfortunately they didn't make this clear in the actual wording]

 

If private companies want to provide facilities then that would be great, except that these have to be paid for, and that's the rub -- companies will only install such a network if they think this will pay back the cost over (say) three years, which means that almost all the bag'n'binners would have to stop doing that and use the new bins, and pay for the privilege. Given the position today, it seems unlikely that this will happen across most of the system because it's a bad bet, in fact almost guaranteed to lose money -- the only possible exception is where there are a lot of boats in a small area (e.g. London), and even then it assumes most of them would pay instead of carrying on chucking it in the CART bins for free. Which do you think impoverished liveaboards will do?

 

The only people who see any braying mob here are those who refuse to look at the facts; as was said earlier (many times!) composting toilets used properly are great and nobody hates the people who do this, in fact quite the opposite, they're to be admired, they're living the green dream.

 

What boaters don't like is people who throw bags of uncomposted sh*t into the general waste bins, who are responsible for this entire problem. And they might be a small minority of boaters, but they're a large majority of composting toilet users, so claiming that this is all the fault of a few bad apples in the composting fraternity simply doesn't stand up.

Edited August 16, 2021 by IanD

[Bargebuilder]

12 minutes ago, IanD said:

I don't see how anyone could see this as encouraging bag'n'binning ("go on, please do it, it'll be great for the environment!")

By offering the free and hassle free removal of uncomposted toilet waste, of course the C&RT were encouraging the proliferation of the use of separating toilets.

 

I'm sure that wasn't their intention, but it was certainly the effect.

 

Now it's time to look at composting and decide if it has advantages over the alternatives and if so, devise a way of making it work safely for all.

[IanD]

23 minutes ago, Bargebuilder said:

By offering the free and hassle free removal of uncomposted toilet waste, of course the C&RT were encouraging the proliferation of the use of separating toilets.

 

I'm sure that wasn't their intention, but it was certainly the effect.

 

Now it's time to look at composting and decide if it has advantages over the alternatives and if so, devise a way of making it work safely for all.

Read the document. "Encouraging" is certainly not what CART were doing.

 

Yes it has many advantages if the waste is properly disposed of -- see Peter and co.

 

Devising a way to make it work for all is the stumbling block -- mainly because today it's not "for all", it's "for all the composting toilet bag'n'binners" i.e. the 2% of boaters who are responsible for the problem.

 

First question -- why should CART do this?

 

Second question -- who pays?

 

Third question -- how to enforce it so that people use the "composting bins" (and pay) not the general waste bins (free)?

 

So far there have been no credible answers to any of these questions from (most of) the pro-composting lobby -- Dora says she will pay, but there's either silence on this from everybody else or just the endless repetition of "somebody else should pay" -- meaning, the other 98% of boaters. Don't forget that this forum probably has more people like Dora who are interested in "the good of the canals" (self-selection) than the general boating population, so more likely to be willing to pay and less likely to carry on bag'n'binning even if it's banned.

 

Until there are answers, the only viable solution that anyone has come up with so far is to ban their use on the canals -- unfortunate for the likes of Peter, but given the impossibility of policing boaters who continue to bag'n'bin, probably the only option.

 

In an ideal green world that Bargebuilder lives in, CART and the government would strategically decide that composting toilets were the right solution for the canals, the government would fund the rollout of the collection network (with no reduction in the CART grant), and CART would strongly encourage *all* boaters (yes, really encourage) to install composting toilets. Though how long it would take to persuade 35000 boaters to install them instead of what they have today is a moot point...

 

If you think this will happen, I know a man who's got a bridge you might want to buy... 😉

 

 

Edited August 16, 2021 by IanD

[David Mack]

24 minutes ago, IanD said:

Read the document. "Encouraging" is certainly not what CART were doing.

CRT may not have used the word "encouraging", but I agree that the mere provision of a facility for dumping bagged toilet waste and telling people it was permitted (even if people did ignore any qualifications around that permitting), did in essence amount to "encouraging" it. That's certainly the effect it had, as has been demonstrated by the justification bag'n'binners have used in previous threads on this subject.

[IanD]

15 minutes ago, David Mack said:

CRT may not have used the word "encouraging", but I agree that the mere provision of a facility for dumping bagged toilet waste and telling people it was permitted (even if people did ignore any qualifications around that permitting), did in essence amount to "encouraging" it. That's certainly the effect it had, as has been demonstrated by the justification bag'n'binners have used in previous threads on this subject.

That may have been the effect because bag'n'binners only read the part they wanted to read.

 

It's the same selective quotation trick that some people use to justify what they're doing (or not doing) -- climate change deniers, fossil fuel apologists, anti-vaxxers, and bag'n'binners... 😉

 

CARTs intention was perfectly clear from the document, and it was certainly not to encourage bag'n'binning, which means (go and look it up) giving positive advice to do something -- the positive advice was to compost the waste properly if you installed one on a boat, which is and was commendable.

 

Words matter, and this is another case of putting them into somebody else's mouth to try and bolster your argument -- not exactly unknown on the forum... 😞

Edited August 16, 2021 by IanD

[Bargebuilder]

5 minutes ago, IanD said:

That may have been the effect because bag'n'binners only read the part they wanted to read.

 

It's the same selective quotation trick that some people use to justify what they're doing (or not doing) -- climate change deniers, fossil fuel apologists, anti-vaxxers, and bag'n'binners... 😉

 

CARTs intention was perfectly clear from the document, and it was certainly not to encourage bag'n'binning.

Short of the C&RT saying 'please, please put your toilet waste in our bins' they couldn't have done much more to encourage such misuse.

 

With all the other advantages of separating loos over pump-outs and Elsans, the C&RT solved for many the only barrier to 'composting', what to do with the product. Of course the C&RT  are in part responsible for the jump in popularity of separating toilets.

[Chagall]

46 minutes ago, IanD said:

 

 

So far there have been no credible answers to any of these questions from (most of) the pro-composting lobby -- Dora says she will pay, but there's either silence on this from everybody else or just the endless repetition of "somebody else should pay" -- meaning, the other 98% of boaters. Don't forget that this forum probably has more people like Dora who are interested in "the good of the canals" (self-selection) than the general boating population, so more likely to be willing to pay and less likely to carry on bag'n'binning even if it's banned.

 

 

 

Not true, many on this forum, including me, have said they will be happy to pay.  I cant believe many have said "somebody else should pay" but Im certainly not going through 58 pages to find them, did you? 

 

 It may be true that a large proportion of the general boaters outside of this forum dont give a toss about what they toss. If and when facilities are provided I think more would.  Id rather believe that, especially with the rise of more and more people wishing to be eco friendly, composting and dry toilets could see a huge rise in popularity and not only in the boating world. The benefits are potentially enormous to the planet. 

[IanD]

5 minutes ago, Bargebuilder said:

Short of the C&RT saying 'please, please put your toilet waste in our bins' they couldn't have done much more to encourage such misuse.

 

With all the other advantages of separating loos over pump-outs and Elsans, the C&RT solved for many the only barrier to 'composting', what to do with the product. Of course the C&RT  are in part responsible for the jump in popularity of separating toilets.

Read the document.

4 minutes ago, Chagall said:

Not true, many on this forum, including me, have said they will be happy to pay.  I cant believe many have said "somebody else should pay" but Im certainly not going through 58 pages to find them, did you? 

 

 It may be true that a large proportion of the general boaters outside of this forum dont give a toss about what they toss. If and when facilities are provided I think more would.  Id rather believe that, especially with the rise of more and more people wishing to be eco friendly, composting and dry toilets could see a huge rise in popularity and not only in the boating world. The benefits are potentially enormous to the planet. 

 

Usual "me and my mates" anecdote. Means nothing unless you can show that this extends to everybody else who isn't your mate and isn't on this forum. Evidence please...

 

[don't forget what happened last time this argument was tried about "most boaters don't care"...]

 

Yes they are, if everyone uses them, exactly what I said. How do you suggest we get to there from here, specifically on the UK canals? Be realistic, not idealistic...

Edited August 16, 2021 by IanD

[Chagall]

4 minutes ago, IanD said:

Read the document.

Yes they are, if everyone uses them. How do you suggest we get to there from here?

Time.   The possible solutions are in these pages but you dismiss them as unsubstantiated bunkum. Everything that ever succeeds starts from a shaky uncertain beginning.  

 

 

Edited August 16, 2021 by Chagall

[IanD]

3 minutes ago, Chagall said:

Time.   The possible solutions are in these pages but you dismiss them as unsubstantiated bunkum. Everything that ever succeeds starts from a shaky uncertain outcome. 

Nope, they're not bunkum, they just don't work economically or allowing for human nature.

 

You're the one saying "this can all be made to work" -- so show us how this can work in real life (how to get to there from here) and everyone will be happy. Go on... 😉

Edited August 16, 2021 by IanD

[haggis]

I think some folk on the forum must have shares in a company which manufactures composting toilets 

 

[Chagall]

4 minutes ago, IanD said:

Nope, they're not bunkum, they just don't work economically or allowing for human nature.

 

You're the one saying "this can all be made to work" -- so show us how and everyone will be happy. Go on... 😉

When you think that an emoticon can excuse your attitude then there is no way I will discuss this further with you.  Argue with your sarcasm?  ...no thanks.

 

Edited August 16, 2021 by Chagall
an not at!

[IanD]

1 minute ago, Chagall said:

When you think that at emoticon can excuse your attitude then there is no way I will discuss this further with you.  Argue with your sarcasm?  ...no thanks. 

OK, please show us how this can all be made to work in real life. I'd genuinely like to know if I'm missing some clever way to do this.

[Chagall]

Read the documents.

[IanD]

6 minutes ago, Chagall said:

Read the documents.

Not an answer to the question I asked.

 

How do you suggest we get from where we are now (about 700 bag'n'binners who CART has told must stop) to the future that you and Bargebuilder say is possible (network-wide composting toilet waste collection used by the majority of 35000 boaters)?

 

Please provide practical ideas about how this can be financed and made to work, and how the free bag'n'binners can be stopped in the meantime.

 

Otherwise we're back in unicorn-land, where lovely things can happen through magic.

Edited August 16, 2021 by IanD

[Chagall]

6 minutes ago, IanD said:

Not an answer to the question I asked.

 

How do you suggest we get from where we are now (about 700 bag'n'binners who CART has told must stop) to the future that you and Bargebuilder say is possible (network-wide composting toilet waste collection used by the majority of 35000 boaters)?

 

Please provide practical ideas about how this can be financed and made to work, and how the free bag'n'binners can be stopped in the meantime.

Possible alternatives that will endeavour to make it work have been suggested in these pages and on C&RT's web site. Find them yourself, I have a boat to move. 

 

Edited August 16, 2021 by Chagall

[peterboat]

1 hour ago, Idle Days said:

Are we forgetting the problem of correctly disposing of the liquid side of the "composting" toilet, a much more frequent operation than the disposing of the solids. 

Its not really, mine goes to the allotment but at one point it was waste land away from the canal, its full of nutrients so won't do any harm 

[Idle Days]

1 minute ago, peterboat said:

Its not really, mine goes to the allotment but at one point it was waste land away from the canal, its full of nutrients so won't do any harm 

 

Lucky you, but what about a practical method for the majority of users? 

[IanD]

7 minutes ago, Chagall said:

Workable alternatives that will endeavour to make it work have been suggested in these pages and on C&RT's web site. Find them yourself, I have a boat to move. 

You claim they exist, you find them. So far you've provided no convincing explanation of how to make what you want to happen, happen.

 

There have been many "suggestions", most with a sprinkling of what-if magic fairy dust, that fall apart as soon as you dig into the realities and actual numbers and costs involved. All CART said was that they are "investigating solutions" to the problem -- well people have been "investigating solutions" to the Afghanistan problem for 20 years now, and no amount of wishing there was a solution has made it happen.

 

So if you know of any that might actually work in the real world as opposed to an ideal one, please tell us.

Edited August 16, 2021 by IanD

[peterboat]

1 minute ago, Idle Days said:

 

Lucky you, but what about a practical method for the majority of users? 

As others have said put it down the elsan? Hedge bottom would do also work as its full of nutrients 

[redwing]

Some fuel boats do pumpouts. Compost collection might be feasible for them

[Midnight]

As I see it there's no urgent problem with only 700 compost bogs out of 35000 boats probably only a proportion cruising at any given time. When it does become a problem (like dog poo) then the powers that be will find a solution (like poo bins). They usually do!

Whilst I am a satisfied pump-out boater I don't see the need to keep banging on, speculating about what compost loo people may or may not do and who will or won't pay.  Nobody here knows what C&RT are planning and license fees, mooring fees etc rise no matter what.