C&RT say don't empty your compost toilet in our bins.

[Alway Swilby]

23 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Simples :

 

A licence must be issued if the boat has :

Mooring (or CC)

A BSS

Insurance.

 

There is no legal requirement for what the BSS must cover, or cannot cover. The BSS is owned by and written by C&RT and the EA They regularly change it - the most recent being the addition of CO Alarms - no alarm no BSS

 

Simples :  The BSS is amended to state that Composting / waterless toilets are disallowed.

 

Any boat with a Composting / waterless toilet fails its BSS

 

Simples :

Are there any current BSS requirements that have nothing to do with boat safety?

[IanD]

It's possible that there might be a way out for the composters, if a commercial company can provide a disposal service as was mentioned earlier, which will make everyone happy. The bad news is that it'll probably end up costing at least as much as a pumpout, and avoiding this cost was the reason many people installed them.

 

Also if this means the toilets aren't banned, there's absolutely nothing stopping the cheapskates continuing to chuck it in the CART bins -- why pay £15 or more to dispose of it properly when you can chuck it for free?

 

I'm sure CART aren't so stupid that they don't realise this, such a service seems to provide a way round the problem but in practice will do nothing of the sort, their bins will keep on filling up with poo.

 

I predicted when this debate started that CART would have to ban bag'n'binning, and this then happened not long afterwards. I now expect that if CART find out next year that bag'n'binning continues (because it will) even after they've banned the practice, they'll have no option other than to ban the toilets.

 

Sorry Peter 😞

18 minutes ago, peterboat said:

Doubt it, no BSS guy has ever looked at my toilet

Because he doesn't have to, it's not banned. Bet he looks at the things that *are* required (or banned) though...

Edited August 7, 2021 by IanD

[Guest]

What the hell does a boat bog have to with boat safety?

 

 

[IanD]

14 minutes ago, Alway Swilby said:

Are there any current BSS requirements that have nothing to do with boat safety?

Part of the reason for Biffa refusing to handle the waste is that it's classified as hazardous, as Alan explained. I'm sure CART can find a way of turning this into an H&S requirement, which after all is largely about keeping other people safe...

Edited August 7, 2021 by IanD

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, IanD said:

Part of the reason for Biffa refusing to handle the waste is that it's hazardous, hence the classification. I'm sure CART can find a way of turing this into an H&S requirement...

 

You are starting to make things up and sounding ridiculous in the process.

[Alan de Enfield]

47 minutes ago, Alway Swilby said:

Are there any current BSS requirements that have nothing to do with boat safety?

 

Yes - Sea toilets being one of them

Edited August 7, 2021 by Alan de Enfield

[Arthur Marshall]

56 minutes ago, Alway Swilby said:

Are there any current BSS requirements that have nothing to do with boat safety?

CO alarms. Might be owner safety, but nothing to do with the boat. There have been others.

[Bargebuilder]

9 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Yes - Sea toilets being one of them

But sea toilets aren't banned, the use of them in many places is however.

 

All a BSS inspector can do is to insist on a sea cock that is capable of isolating the toilet, nothing else.

 

In practice no BSS inspector has ever even asked to have a look and wouldn't even know if we had a sea toilet or a composter or another option.

[Bargebuilder]

1 hour ago, IanD said:

 

I predicted when this debate started that CART would have to ban bag'n'binning, and this then happened not long afterwards. I now expect that if CART find out next year that bag'n'binning continues (because it will) even after they've banned the practice, they'll have no option other than to ban the toilets.

 

😞

What do you predict they'll do when the ban on separating toilets doesn't work.

[Alan de Enfield]

9 minutes ago, Bargebuilder said:

But sea toilets aren't banned, the use of them in many places is however.

 

All a BSS inspector can do is to insist on a sea cock that is capable of isolating the toilet, nothing else.

 

In practice no BSS inspector has ever even asked to have a look and wouldn't even know if we had a sea toilet or a composter or another option.

 

 

You are ignoring the question.

The question was does the BSS cover anything that is not boat safety.

The answer is yes (several things) one of which is already toilets. (Nothing to do with boat safety)

 

SO - the BSS can be re-written to cover composting toilets, and they can write whatever their master (C&RT) tell them to write. It would be simple for them to say they are not allowed. No justification is needed.

They are Prosecution, Judge and Jury.

 

BSS examiners maybe do not currently inspect toilets, but if it is in the BSS then they need to check and sign-off what type is installed.

Edited August 7, 2021 by Alan de Enfield

[Bargebuilder]

16 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

BSS examiners maybe do not currently inspect toilets, but if it is in the BSS then they need to check and sign-off what type is installed.

Separating loos are very simple and lightweight so in just a few minutes could be removed and replaced with a cassette toilet just for the duration of the inspection.

 

We are talking about people who are happy to break the rules!

[IanD]

8 minutes ago, Bargebuilder said:

Separating loos are very simple and lightweight so in just a few minutes could be removed and replaced with a cassette toilet just for the duration of the inspection.

 

We are talking about people who are happy to break the rules!

So you're  saying there's no point doing anything because some people will find a way round it?

 

Do you think the same should apply to all laws?

[Alan de Enfield]

26 minutes ago, Bargebuilder said:

Separating loos are very simple and lightweight so in just a few minutes could be removed and replaced with a cassette toilet just for the duration of the inspection.

 

We are talking about people who are happy to break the rules!

 

Maybe your DIY ones are but the 'shop' versions I have seen are properly installed with fans, electric and vents going thru the roof etc.

 

No point having any laws if we just say 'they will get broken, so not worth doing anything, does seem to sum up the ethics of the many rebels on the waterways.

 

"We dont want no rules & no paperwork, we are free-men"

[MtB]

12 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

"We dont want no rules & no paperwork, we are free-men"

 

"Freemen on the LAND'', I think is the term some of them use! 

[sueb]

How many years have boaters complained about overflowing bins?

 

[ditchcrawler]

A truly composting toilet 

[IanD]

Hey, I've just figured out a great way that pump-out toilet owners can get the same cost savings (free!) as selfish bag'n'binners, with the same justification of doing what's easy for them (legal or not) and making unpleasant waste disposal into SEP (Somebody Else's Problem)...

 

Get a self-pumpout kit, find a boat fitted with a composting toilet, and pump out into their well deck.

 

What's sauce for the goose...;-)

Edited August 7, 2021 by IanD

[MtB]

1 minute ago, IanD said:

Hey, I've just figured out a great way that pump-out toilet owners can get the same cost savings as bag'n'binners, with the same justification of doing what's easy for them (legal or not) and making unpleasant waste disposal into SEP (Somebody Else's Problem)...

 

Get a self-pumpout kit, find a boat fitted with a composting toilet, and pump out into their well deck.

 

What's sauce for the goose...;-)

 

Oh, and I thought you were gonna say never mind cruising to an Elsan and overloading that, pump out directly into the nearest convenient Biffa bin.

[IanD]

12 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

Oh, and I thought you were gonna say never mind cruising to an Elsan and overloading that, pump out directly into the nearest convenient Biffa bin.

No no no, that would be against CART rules so would make you just as bad as the bag'n'binners 😉

[Bargebuilder]

3 hours ago, IanD said:

So you're  saying there's no point doing anything because some people will find a way round it?

 

Do you think the same should apply to all laws?

That's a lot of words that you've put in my mouth. What I actually wrote was that the sort of people who break the rules concerning the misuse of Biffa type bins are likely to be the same people who will look for a way of avoiding a new rule banning separating toilets. Others here have implied the same.

 

I've no idea how many such toilets are on the cut, but given how cheap they can be to make and that they have been free until now to empty, I suspect that many have made the change. The C&RT obviously agree, hence their change of stance.

 

To my knowledge there are at least two, and possibly more, live-aboard YouTube vloggers who have installed and raved about the benefits of separators, which won't have slowed down the trend. 

 

This might be a difficult genie to persuade to go back into the bottle.

[Arthur Marshall]

The real problem of chucking not fully composted human faeces into a bin arises with the poor sod who sorts the bin contents, and opens the bag.

Weirdly, this is a person much like the one who produced the product in the first place and thought it best to avoid any contact with it. Just occasionally, one has to think of other people, although, judging by the amount of dog excrement both on the towpath and hanging in bags off the trees, this does seem to be a vanishing concept.

[peterboat]

13 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Maybe your DIY ones are but the 'shop' versions I have seen are properly installed with fans, electric and vents going thru the roof etc.

 

No point having any laws if we just say 'they will get broken, so not worth doing anything, does seem to sum up the ethics of the many rebels on the waterways.

 

"We dont want no rules & no paperwork, we are free-men"

Actually I could remove mine in about 10 minutes, so replace it for the BSS and put it back afterwards. The shop bought ones are likely to be the easiest to remove, my mates home made is built in.

[IanD]

10 hours ago, Bargebuilder said:

That's a lot of words that you've put in my mouth. What I actually wrote was that the sort of people who break the rules concerning the misuse of Biffa type bins are likely to be the same people who will look for a way of avoiding a new rule banning separating toilets. Others here have implied the same.

 

I've no idea how many such toilets are on the cut, but given how cheap they can be to make and that they have been free until now to empty, I suspect that many have made the change. The C&RT obviously agree, hence their change of stance.

 

To my knowledge there are at least two, and possibly more, live-aboard YouTube vloggers who have installed and raved about the benefits of separators, which won't have slowed down the trend. 

 

This might be a difficult genie to persuade to go back into the bottle.

It might, but CART have to try -- and I'd have thought that "decent" boaters (the vast majority) who don't approve of selfish people (the minority -- about 2% of boaters) throwing uncomposted poo into canalside waste bins (or leaving it beside them for people to tread in) should support them.

 

If you disagree go back and find the poll that I put up on the subject; it attracted much vituperative abuse from bag'n'binners, but there was a huge majority in favour of banning this.

 

Peer pressure can be very powerful, I don't think the bag'n'binners who continue doing it after the ban would like being ostracised...

[Midnight]

At this point I don't think demonising boaters with 'composting' toilets is very helpful. C&RT made a big mistake by allowing bag 'n bin. They make lots of big mistakes but they have now 'binned' Biffa and we need to wait to see if the new contractor will accept bag 'n bin. 

 

Self-pumpout users like all users can manage without mess if they understand the issues and take care - I've seen a cassette user empty it's contents mostly on top of the Elsan just after the contracting lady cleaned it. I hosed it down for her.

 

People in glass houses.............

 

[IanD]

2 hours ago, Midnight said:

At this point I don't think demonising boaters with 'composting' toilets is very helpful. C&RT made a big mistake by allowing bag 'n bin. They make lots of big mistakes but they have now 'binned' Biffa and we need to wait to see if the new contractor will accept bag 'n bin. 

 

Self-pumpout users like all users can manage without mess if they understand the issues and take care - I've seen a cassette user empty it's contents mostly on top of the Elsan just after the contracting lady cleaned it. I hosed it down for her.

 

People in glass houses.............

 

The issue is whether a small minority of boaters should continue to be allowed to do something which is good for them but bad for everyone else, especially if they hope that CART -- meaning, other boaters -- will pick up the tab for cleaning up their mess.

 

To put the problem into perspective, let's look at some numbers. Out of 35000 boaters on CART waterways it's estimated that around a thousand have installed composting toilets; out of these maybe 30% compost properly like Peter, the other 70% don't -- which means the poo problem is caused by about 700 boaters, or 2%. Which means it's *not* caused by the other 98%.

 

Given these numbers, it's difficult to see why CART should try and solve the problem of the 2% by making the other 98% pay for it. If they ban the toilets then the guilty 2% who are causing the problem have to find another solution, the unfortunate 1% like Peter suffer through no fault of their own, and the other 97% benefit by continuing to have their rubbish collected without paying more for it or stepping in bags of poo left by the bins.

 

The simple fact is that a very small but vociferous minority (the 2%, not the 1% of "real composters") want to carry on what they've been selfishly doing even though it's not in the interests of CART or the vast majority of boaters. Why should they be allowed to continue doing this?

 

And please don't try and divert attention by pointing out that other toilet owners don't always behave perfectly -- there are 50x more of them so this should come as no surprise, and two wrongs don't make a right. As I pointed out earlier, just because somebody else sh*ts in the shower doesn't give you an excuse to do the same...

 

This is a new problem caused by a few people who think that disposing of their poo should be somebody else's problem (and cost), when actually it's theirs.

 

If you want to call this "demonising boaters with composting toilets" then that's your opinion. I'd call it prioritising the interests of the boating community as a whole over  those of a few selfish individuals -- and if you think "selfish" is the wrong adjective, what would you use?

 

Yes I feel strongly about this, it's a perfect example of the kind of "me-first-f*ck-you" attitude that is unfortunately  becoming increasingly common in society...:-(

Edited August 8, 2021 by IanD