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Captains

 

My first post on this forum. I'm in the process of buying a Norman 22' cruiser presumably from the 70's. There are issues with the ancient engine and the vendor does not know much about it. It ran in the summer evidently. He has provided the attached photo of what might be an engine number - 15zf/u/d219. The only other obvious factors are that it is now direct cooled and the manifold seems aluminium with "Lancing Mariner" cast into it. Can anyone help identify please? Chris

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17 minutes ago, Frank30 said:

Captains

 

My first post on this forum. I'm in the process of buying a Norman 22' cruiser presumably from the 70's. There are issues with the ancient engine and the vendor does not know much about it. It ran in the summer evidently. He has provided the attached photo of what might be an engine number - 15zf/u/d219. The only other obvious factors are that it is now direct cooled and the manifold seems aluminium with "Lancing Mariner" cast into it. Can anyone help identify please? Chris

received_181488933732961.jpeg

received_1100807717035675.jpeg

Welcome to the forum.   It's a BMC 1500  Mariner. Marinised by Lancing Marine. Still trading   https://www.lancingmarine.com/

Edited by Flyboy
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Thank you Flyboy and Tracy D'arth for such prompt replies. I have no exact info on the transmission yet, but it is and outdrive (sterndrive?) Next thing that interests me is that there seems to be no visible inlet manifold or air filter. You can see the crankcase vent pipe sits there unconnected. The inlet would have been on the same side as the exhaust I presume and somehow tucked under the exhaust manifold?

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6 minutes ago, Frank30 said:

Thank you Flyboy and Tracy D'arth for such prompt replies. I have no exact info on the transmission yet, but it is and outdrive (sterndrive?) Next thing that interests me is that there seems to be no visible inlet manifold or air filter. You can see the crankcase vent pipe sits there unconnected. The inlet would have been on the same side as the exhaust I presume and somehow tucked under the exhaust manifold?

 

 

Those diesels and most others nowadays do not need an inlet manifold save to help prevent hard bits being drawn into the engine.

 

The vehicle inlet manifold is turned upside down and refitted for marine use so the air cleaner (if there is one) clears the exhaust manifold.

 

That manifold is a Lancing marine special which is not very common so I don't know if these is space below it for the inlet manifold and/or air cleaner. In any case the typical air cleaner was a wire gauze type so not that much good at removing  dust.

 

We will need a photo of the sterndrive outside the boat if you want help identifying it.

 

I suspect the engine is direct raw water cooled with wet exhaust from what I can see so frost protection procedures needed in winter.

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There are loads of photos around if you Google 'lancing marine' and their website is lancingmarine dot com.

There's a train station within sight of their unit if you have to visit!!

 

I doubt that young 'Mr. Bellamy'  is still around as he's older than I... but there's bound to be a successor.

If you could find the engine number or plate it might help - being true engineers they keep records, though time often dulls the ink.

 

As they are MARINE engineers I would have thought that the water cooling would be indirect (their main marine market was for the salty stuff, given that Shoreham harbour is only half a mile away).

 

 

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7 minutes ago, OldGoat said:

There are loads of photos around if you Google 'lancing marine' and their website is lancingmarine dot com.

There's a train station within sight of their unit if you have to visit!!

 

I doubt that young 'Mr. Bellamy'  is still around as he's older than I... but there's bound to be a successor.

If you could find the engine number or plate it might help - being true engineers they keep records, though time often dulls the ink.

 

As they are MARINE engineers I would have thought that the water cooling would be indirect (their main marine market was for the salty stuff, given that Shoreham harbour is only half a mile away).

 

 

 

That is what I would expect except there is no sign of a heat exchanger and the only two visible hose connections on the manifold look like 1/2" to me and I doubt that size would allow adequate indirect cooling. In fact the top hose is reduced to that small size. Against that is the fact that it seems to have an engine water pump but no raw water pump to be seen (maybe its electric and elsewhere). I seems to have a wet exhaust hose but I can't see a mixing elbow. The thermostat housing seems to be an automotive one rather than the marine one.

 

I am beginning to suspect its a home marinised bitsa and Lancing Marine may well only have supplied parts.

 

More photos required to be sure about any of it.

 

 

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30 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:

It does look like raw water cooling.

I would agree that it is a home marinization as the spill rail is plastic pipe, did not comply with regs for inland waterways but things change,

Yes,and it looks to be indirect raw water cooling.The box embossed Lancing could be the heat exchanger.

Look carefully at the outdrive.Some will swing up when they hit the bottom,and others only come up sideways and so are prone to damage.

If your cruising is mainly on canals then you really need the swing up type.

 

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1 hour ago, Mad Harold said:

Yes,and it looks to be indirect raw water cooling.The box embossed Lancing could be the heat exchanger.

Look carefully at the outdrive.Some will swing up when they hit the bottom,and others only come up sideways and so are prone to damage.

If your cruising is mainly on canals then you really need the swing up type.

 

 

It could be but of so where are the other two pipes that would be needed? How likely is it that a 1/2" bore pipe would be sufficient to for the coolant on a heat exchanger boat? We know it is for raw water cooling.

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Other members have identified your engine, but I'd just like to point out that there's a bare cable that needs to be taken care of. I've edited one of your images to identify which one. It's capable of carrying a high current and I would hate to think it's "live".It needs to find a home or that bare end needs insulating. Good luck with your purchase and happy cruising.

 

 

Wire.jpg

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2 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

It could be but of so where are the other two pipes that would be needed? How likely is it that a 1/2" bore pipe would be sufficient to for the coolant on a heat exchanger boat? We know it is for raw water cooling.

I'll bow to your experience there,Tony.

My last narrowboat (BMC 1500) was direct raw water cooled and looked like a home made lash up.

It didn't have a box next to the engine as this one has,and it is that box that I took to be a heat exchanger that threw me.

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There is more to this because I think I can see a plastic wet exhaust silencer with the exhaust hose on it but with a hole burned in it so. it is also on the "wrong" side of the engine for a typical 1.5 so I suspect there may have been an engine change.

 

Whatever there is there if the OP has little boat experience he may do well to post enough photos of the whole engine area so we can perhaps help him sort out exactly what he has and what needs urgent attention.

 

That bare red wire might also indicate an engine with the alternator fitted on that side was once fitted.

 

@Frank30 please don't get put off, bear with us, we are trying to help you understand what you have and potential problems.

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Thanks again for all the inputs. Problem is boat is 2.5 hrs from home so difficult to get more pictures. Have owned 3 marine engines in yachts (rebuilt two of them) plus various outboards. This boat is not in fabulous order, but the price was right so I thought I'd give canals a go for my retirement....  I will get the make of outdrive from the owner though that apparently works OK. Lancing are not answering the phone for the moment.

 

The engine only has one Jabsco-type circulating pump (in place of the conventional car/rad centrifugal pump) which had impeller issues back in the summer. Something to do with the thermostat housing was also repaired when the boat was used and overheated back in the summer. Probably lead to the partially melted plastic muffler (that has been patched with resin). The vendor is not clear what exactly was done during repair, but the problem was not entirely cured. The external cooling circulation is certainly a bodge/rats nest of cheap repairs and that will get remediated in the spring. Does anyone know if the block/head passages are likely to be scaled up badly from fresh water direct cooling over the decades? To the point of needing a strip down to clear them out?

 

Lastly the free red wire does need isolating, but not a biggie. The vendor installed solar charging for the house battery and simply disconnected the wire from the alternator which now only charges the starting battery. Chris

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For completeness (Tony Brooks) the exhaust emerges in the middle of the lower side of the cooled exhaust manifold into a piece of rubber exhaust hose that passes under the engine to the plastic silencer/muffler on the 'wrong' side. I have not figured out where the cooling water joins the exhaust gases. No obvious water-injecting exhaust elbow.....

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3 minutes ago, Frank30 said:

Thanks again for all the inputs. Problem is boat is 2.5 hrs from home so difficult to get more pictures. Have owned 3 marine engines in yachts (rebuilt two of them) plus various outboards. This boat is not in fabulous order, but the price was right so I thought I'd give canals a go for my retirement....  I will get the make of outdrive from the owner though that apparently works OK. Lancing are not answering the phone for the moment.

 

The engine only has one Jabsco-type circulating pump (in place of the conventional car/rad centrifugal pump) which had impeller issues back in the summer. Something to do with the thermostat housing was also repaired when the boat was used and overheated back in the summer. Probably lead to the partially melted plastic muffler (that has been patched with resin). The vendor is not clear what exactly was done during repair, but the problem was not entirely cured. The external cooling circulation is certainly a bodge/rats nest of cheap repairs and that will get remediated in the spring. Does anyone know if the block/head passages are likely to be scaled up badly from fresh water direct cooling over the decades? To the point of needing a strip down to clear them out?

 

Lastly the free red wire does need isolating, but not a biggie. The vendor installed solar charging for the house battery and simply disconnected the wire from the alternator which now only charges the starting battery. Chris

You will have your work cut out Frank there seems to be many problems that you are aware of to keep you busy. Welcome to the forum.

 

The water ways should not be blocked unless it has been running in salt water. Expect corrosion though long term, the BMC engines being vehicle derived were never intended for fresh water cooling directly, they were OK with a heat exchanger.

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3 minutes ago, Frank30 said:

Thanks again for all the inputs. Problem is boat is 2.5 hrs from home so difficult to get more pictures. Have owned 3 marine engines in yachts (rebuilt two of them) plus various outboards. This boat is not in fabulous order, but the price was right so I thought I'd give canals a go for my retirement....  I will get the make of outdrive from the owner though that apparently works OK. Lancing are not answering the phone for the moment.

 

The engine only has one Jabsco-type circulating pump (in place of the conventional car/rad centrifugal pump) which had impeller issues back in the summer. Something to do with the thermostat housing was also repaired when the boat was used and overheated back in the summer. Probably lead to the partially melted plastic muffler (that has been patched with resin). The vendor is not clear what exactly was done during repair, but the problem was not entirely cured. The external cooling circulation is certainly a bodge/rats nest of cheap repairs and that will get remediated in the spring. Does anyone know if the block/head passages are likely to be scaled up badly from fresh water direct cooling over the decades? To the point of needing a strip down to clear them out?

 

Lastly the free red wire does need isolating, but not a biggie. The vendor installed solar charging for the house battery and simply disconnected the wire from the alternator which now only charges the starting battery. Chris

My direct raw water cooled BMC 1500 had a hose conection on the cylinder head.A thoughtful previous owner had removed one of the blanking bolts and replaced it with a hose conection.

Whenever I filled up with water,I used to put the hose on the cylinder head conection and flush the water jacket out.

Usually got a few seconds of brown water and then it would run clear.

Don't know if it was rust or mud,but the engine never overheated.

 

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1 minute ago, Frank30 said:

Thanks again for all the inputs. Problem is boat is 2.5 hrs from home so difficult to get more pictures. Have owned 3 marine engines in yachts (rebuilt two of them) plus various outboards. This boat is not in fabulous order, but the price was right so I thought I'd give canals a go for my retirement....  I will get the make of outdrive from the owner though that apparently works OK. Lancing are not answering the phone for the moment.

 

The engine only has one Jabsco-type circulating pump (in place of the conventional car/rad centrifugal pump) which had impeller issues back in the summer. Something to do with the thermostat housing was also repaired when the boat was used and overheated back in the summer. Probably lead to the partially melted plastic muffler (that has been patched with resin). The vendor is not clear what exactly was done during repair, but the problem was not entirely cured. The external cooling circulation is certainly a bodge/rats nest of cheap repairs and that will get remediated in the spring. Does anyone know if the block/head passages are likely to be scaled up badly from fresh water direct cooling over the decades? To the point of needing a strip down to clear them out?

 

Lastly the free red wire does need isolating, but not a biggie. The vendor installed solar charging for the house battery and simply disconnected the wire from the alternator which now only charges the starting battery. Chris

 

1. I found direct raw water cooled 1.5s tended to fur up the head around the hotspots and eventually that caused heads to crack. they tended to do this even with a 60C stat in them. We ran ours without a stat and that stopped it and it did not seem to materially affect the fuel consumption or wear rate. (Thames - hard water area).

 

I can't see a bypass system that allows coolant to flow to the exhaust when the thermostat is closed. Could overheating actually be the silencer and exhaust hose burning when the stat was closed? This does not mean there is not such a system.

 

2. It looks like a cruiser to me so has limited roof space for solar. If you intend to live on it for more than a very few days at a time you need to get the alternator reconnected to the domestic bank. If you want to rely on solar for a bank its best to make it the start battery because they only discharge by a very few Amp hours per start on a serviceable engine.

 

 

 

2.

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Further thoughts:

 

We noticed that when the hot spots furred up the paint close to the injectors/glow plugs started to discolour, there is no sign of the in the photo I think.

 

The fact the silencer had  a hole burned in it says any overheat was caused by loss of raw water, not any problem with blocked galleries within the engine. That points to a loss of raw water and running with a blocked raw water inlet will destroy the Jabsco impeller. A worn jabsco impeller or a worn pump body can also cause a loss of raw water. There is a common "fault" when a Jabsco sheds a wing which is pumped into the system. The wing or things like bits of twig or matchstick that manages to by pass the raw water strainer can jamb across a bend in pipeowork and cause a blockage.

 

I should also have said that alternators play happily with solar although odd things can happen with fully charged batteries so ideally both battery banks would be connected to the alternator via a split charge device (I would use a voltage sensitive relay) and the solar connected to the domestic battery. A correctly wired alternator, solar input and VSR type will allow the solar and/or alternator to charge both banks.

 

 

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I once had a directly cooled BMC 1.5. One of the thin pressed steel core plugs rusted through resulting in a narrow jet of water spurting out from the side of the engine. That should not have been a major problem - just a bit more water to be pumped out of the bilges - but the jet impinged on the top of the dipstick, with the result that water ran down and into the sump, turning the oil into mayonnaise.

I'm sure the core plug would have been fine with closed circuit cooling with corrosion inhibitor, but was very vulnerable to fresh oxygenated water being pumped through the block.

 

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3 minutes ago, David Mack said:

I once had a directly cooled BMC 1.5. One of the thin pressed steel core plugs rusted through resulting in a narrow jet of water spurting out from the side of the engine. That should not have been a major problem - just a bit more water to be pumped out of the bilges - but the jet impinged on the top of the dipstick, with the result that water ran down and into the sump, turning the oil into mayonnaise.

I'm sure the core plug would have been fine with closed circuit cooling with corrosion inhibitor, but was very vulnerable to fresh oxygenated water being pumped through the block.

 

Those plus are soft iron.

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