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So today I had to visit Johnathon Wilsons yard in Sheffield, is Son in law Richard runs Finesse boats from there, Richards other business [Racetech] had been making up a sump for me out of two alloy sumps.

Whilst talking to Richard and Johnathon, Richard mentioned that 9 out of the next 10 builds were electric boats, he showed me his drive system which is an inhouse built 48 volt system, it was very impressive and very neat and tidy. Its a direct drive running at 1500 RPM  its 15KW constant and 30 KW max,, its a liquid cooled motor with Winston Lithium cells, On one of the boats it was installed with 10KW of solar bifacial for higher efficiency. It seems that rather than waiting for 2025 when inland boats have to be carbon free they have decided to go for it now ie jump rather than being pushed, Richard knows that I have an electric boat so he was speaking to the converted but its nice to know that his customers are forward thinking as well.

The mix of boats was NBs and WBs/very large Briganteens as well

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12 minutes ago, peterboat said:

It seems that rather than waiting for 2025

Maybe more people should see this - I'm 'pi$$ing in the wind every time I try and talk about the Marine 2050 Plan

 

 

By 2025 we expect that:

i. All vessels operating in UK waters are maximising the use of energy efficiency options. All new vessels being ordered for use in UK waters are being designed with zero emission propulsion capability. Zero emission commercial vessels are in operation in UK waters.

ii. The UK is building clean maritime clusters focused on innovation and infrastructure associated with zero emission propulsion technologies, including bunkering of low or zero emission fuel.

 

By 2035 we expect that:

iii. The UK has built a number of clean maritime clusters. These combine infrastructure and innovation for the use of zero emission propulsion technologies. Low or zero emission marine fuel bunkering options are readily available across the UK.

 

By 2050 No non-zero emission boats can be used in UK waters (coastal or inland)

 

Inland waterways leisure craft are mentioned in the Governments document several times - one example :

 

On a smaller scale than sector-wide targets, there are certain domestic policies which encourage the uptake of zero emission shipping, most notably the Renewable Transport Fuel Obligation (RTFO). As well as applying to the road sector (on a mandatory basis) and aviation sector (on an optional basis), the RTFO currently applies to fuel suppliers for the non-road mobile machinery (NRMM) sectors, the definition of which includes inland shipping and recreational craft that do not normally operate at sea.

Edited by Alan de Enfield
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32 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Maybe more people should see this - I'm 'pi$$ing in the wind every time I try and talk about the Marine 2050 Plan

 

 

By 2025 we expect that:

i. All vessels operating in UK waters are maximising the use of energy efficiency options. All new vessels being ordered for use in UK waters are being designed with zero emission propulsion capability. Zero emission commercial vessels are in operation in UK waters.

ii. The UK is building clean maritime clusters focused on innovation and infrastructure associated with zero emission propulsion technologies, including bunkering of low or zero emission fuel.

 

By 2035 we expect that:

iii. The UK has built a number of clean maritime clusters. These combine infrastructure and innovation for the use of zero emission propulsion technologies. Low or zero emission marine fuel bunkering options are readily available across the UK.

 

By 2050 No non-zero emission boats can be used in UK waters (coastal or inland)

 

Inland waterways leisure craft are mentioned in the Governments document several times - one example :

 

On a smaller scale than sector-wide targets, there are certain domestic policies which encourage the uptake of zero emission shipping, most notably the Renewable Transport Fuel Obligation (RTFO). As well as applying to the road sector (on a mandatory basis) and aviation sector (on an optional basis), the RTFO currently applies to fuel suppliers for the non-road mobile machinery (NRMM) sectors, the definition of which includes inland shipping and recreational craft that do not normally operate at sea.

Its a strange one Alan , in all likely hood new ICE cars will be banned for 2030 and that means hybrids as well, we are living in a changing world

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Once things reach a critical point they can happen very fast. Remember when there was a Blockbuster, or other video store in every small  town? A few years later Netflix and the like removed the lot. Building a new boat with electric drive, even if at this stage you have a built in diesel generator to charge the batteries and supplement the solar in the absence of a charging network is starting to be a sensible idea. Zero emission capable, and easier to make fully zero emission, once the infrastructure is there. In only a couple of years it will be usual.

Jen

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We cruised past Finesse only last month, but I wasn't aware they were building electric boats. I'd love to think that an electric continuous cruiser was possible for year round cruising. Sadly I think that still requires a diesel generator. I'd be interested to hear about electric boats that people live on and cruise all year round.

Edited by Alan Gladman

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1 hour ago, peterboat said:

So today I had to visit Johnathon Wilsons yard in Sheffield, is Son in law Richard runs Finesse boats from there, Richards other business [Racetech] had been making up a sump for me out of two alloy sumps.

Whilst talking to Richard and Johnathon, Richard mentioned that 9 out of the next 10 builds were electric boats, he showed me his drive system which is an inhouse built 48 volt system, it was very impressive and very neat and tidy. Its a direct drive running at 1500 RPM  its 15KW constant and 30 KW max,, its a liquid cooled motor with Winston Lithium cells, On one of the boats it was installed with 10KW of solar bifacial for higher efficiency. It seems that rather than waiting for 2025 when inland boats have to be carbon free they have decided to go for it now ie jump rather than being pushed, Richard knows that I have an electric boat so he was speaking to the converted but its nice to know that his customers are forward thinking as well.

The mix of boats was NBs and WBs/very large Briganteens as well

What is the charging method they are installing for when there is insufficient solar to replenish the days boating and evenings electrical usage...?  And how is hot water produced...?

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16 minutes ago, Rob-M said:

What is the charging method they are installing for when there is insufficient solar to replenish the days boating and evenings electrical usage...?  And how is hot water produced...?

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Doing some reading up on using an electric outboard on my Norman 20.

Powered presently by a 8hp outboard and leaving aside the charging and solar requirements for electric power,I am a bit puzzled by the quoted power output of electric outboards.

Some are quoted in pounds of thrust,and others in watts.

My present engine is 8hp,but without tying a spring balance to the mooring,I don't know what it's thrust is.

For example,one manufacturer quotes 100lb of thrust,and another quotes 5hp.

As 1kw =1.341 hp,the manufacturer of the 5hp outboard says the motor is 1200W.I can't understand how a 1200W motor can produce 5hp.

Is the manufacturer telling porkies,or am I misunderstanding something?

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34 minutes ago, Rob-M said:

What is the charging method they are installing for when there is insufficient solar to replenish the days boating and evenings electrical usage...?  And how is hot water produced...?

No idea hot water by diesel heating? I do know that a heat pump is planned on one boat with the large solar arrays 

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1 minute ago, peterboat said:

No idea hot water by diesel heating? I do know that a heat pump is planned on one boat with the large solar arrays 

So still using diesel then...!

 

What's the point of having an electric motor when diesel is required to generate the power or produce hot water.

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1 minute ago, Rob-M said:

So still using diesel then...!

 

What's the point of having an electric motor when diesel is required to generate the power or produce hot water.

Because mine uses the sun all the time for motion, some of the time for hot water and all of the time for domestic electricity 

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16 minutes ago, Mad Harold said:

Doing some reading up on using an electric outboard on my Norman 20.

Powered presently by a 8hp outboard and leaving aside the charging and solar requirements for electric power,I am a bit puzzled by the quoted power output of electric outboards.

Some are quoted in pounds of thrust,and others in watts.

My present engine is 8hp,but without tying a spring balance to the mooring,I don't know what it's thrust is.

For example,one manufacturer quotes 100lb of thrust,and another quotes 5hp.

As 1kw =1.341 hp,the manufacturer of the 5hp outboard says the motor is 1200W.I can't understand how a 1200W motor can produce 5hp.

Is the manufacturer telling porkies,or am I misunderstanding something?

Without consistent test methods you are left with marketing claims, which can vary from optimistic to downright deceitful. I suspect your idea of tying a spring balance to the mooring and seeing what your current engine can do is actually the best way to compare with the electric outboards..

Maybe tie a rope to your boat, run it through a pulley on land, then see if your boat can lift a weight the same as the quoted thrust of the electric outboard.

Horsepower is most likely the horsepower of the engine alone, calculated from the measured torque at the highest rpm. Thing is the engine is usually running at much less than max rpm, so power is a lot less. The thrust quoted on the electric outboards might be typical, or maximum, but is at the prop, so a much better comparison.

Jen

 

7 minutes ago, Rob-M said:

So still using diesel then...!

 

What's the point of having an electric motor when diesel is required to generate the power or produce hot water.

So the boat is ready when battery tech improves and/or gets cheaper and there are more charging points around.

 

Edited by Jen-in-Wellies
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Why can’t crt install eleccy bollards at visitor moorings throughout the country, no need for generators or long idle engine running to charge batts, Payed for on line, or by contactless, just as so , pump out machines and cards should be contactless payment. CRT need an innovator of the future for boaters, not just joggers and cyclists etc, it is environmentally friendly, and eventually, will all be electric, grrrr

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5 minutes ago, Timx said:

Why can’t crt install eleccy bollards at visitor moorings throughout the country, no need for generators or long idle engine running to charge batts, Payed for on line, or by contactless, just as so , pump out machines and cards should be contactless payment. CRT need an innovator of the future for boaters, not just joggers and cyclists etc, it is environmentally friendly, and eventually, will all be electric, grrrr

As long as you are prepared to pay for the immense infrastructure cost to achieve that then yes why not?

 

Its not quite as simple (or cheap) as adding an extra socket on your boat.

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8 hours ago, Timx said:

Why can’t crt install eleccy bollards at visitor moorings throughout the country, no need for generators or long idle engine running to charge batts, Payed for on line, or by contactless, just as so , pump out machines and cards should be contactless payment. CRT need an innovator of the future for boaters, not just joggers and cyclists etc, it is environmentally friendly, and eventually, will all be electric, grrrr

You could make that suggestion directly to CRT and let us know what they say. Here's how to contact CRThttps://canalrivertrust.org.uk/contact-us/ways-to-contact-us

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1 hour ago, Alan Gladman said:

You could make that suggestion directly to CRT and let us know what they say. Here's how to contact CRThttps://canalrivertrust.org.uk/contact-us/ways-to-contact-us

Done that. Lots of agreement but no action.

Look at the VMs in Islington. Electric hookups agreed 2 or 3 years ago to appease local residents but not installed.

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Leccy bollards to charge an electric boat are high current ones. Not only does there need to be the bollards installed, but a high power grid connection needs making and if there isn't already a cable nearby, then this will be even more cost. I've suggested before on the forum that CaRT start with a network of charging points on the popular hire boat cruising rings. Diesel is a large expense for the hire boat fleets and some turn over their fleet every so many years, so having some of their fleet electric would be a big help for them and little difference in build cost for new boats. This would encourage more private boaters to go battery electric. From there the network can be expanded to the less travelled routes. The capital cost of the bollards is a problem, but an incremental approach over the next ten years or so, with payback from selling the electricity could pay it back.

I've seen no sign that CaRT is even thinking of the future of boat propulsion at the moment. It seems to be concentrating on walkers and cyclists for its future. The Broads Authority are well ahead of them, with charging for electric boats available.

Jen

Edited by Jen-in-Wellies
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1 hour ago, pearley said:

Done that. Lots of agreement but no action.

Look at the VMs in Islington. Electric hookups agreed 2 or 3 years ago to appease local residents but not installed.

It's happening.  Whole load of closures this and next month to install bollards from York Way to City Road lock.  And then the moorings become bookable only, and only single mooring, and only for one week.  If you're a cc'er you can't get an online account to use the bollards....

 

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1 hour ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

Leccy bollards to charge an electric boat are high current ones. Not only does there need to be the bollards installed, but a high power grid connection needs making and if there isn't already a cable nearby, then this will be even more cost. I've suggested before on the forum that CaRT start with a network of charging points on the popular hire boat cruising rings. Diesel is a large expense for the hire boat fleets and some turn over their fleet every so many years, so having some of their fleet electric would be a big help for them and little difference in build cost for new boats. This would encourage more private boaters to go battery electric. From there the network can be expanded to the less travelled routes. The capital cost of the bollards is a problem, but an incremental approach over the next ten years or so, with payback from selling the electricity could pay it back.

I've seen no sign that CaRT is even thinking of the future of boat propulsion at the moment. It seems to be concentrating on walkers and cyclists for its future. The Broads Authority are well ahead of them, with charging for electric boats available.

Jen

From a hire point of view full roof of solar will help, people forget that for me it's how I get around. The 10 kw solar planned for one of the boats is serious power and will give it more than enough power in winter to live on

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8 minutes ago, peterboat said:

From a hire point of view full roof of solar will help, people forget that for me it's how I get around. The 10 kw solar planned for one of the boats is serious power and will give it more than enough power in winter to live on

How much space (in sq mtrs or feet) does 10kw of solar cover (approx)

Thanks.

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5 minutes ago, peterboat said:

From a hire point of view full roof of solar will help, people forget that for me it's how I get around. The 10 kw solar planned for one of the boats is serious power and will give it more than enough power in winter to live on

And generally hire companies won't let hirers walk on the roof anyway, so filling them with panels is a good idea. You'd still need charging bollards, or a built in generator driven by dead dinosaur juice though. What if half way through a cruising ring the weather turns and it rains all day, every day for the rest of the hire period? How do they get the boat back to base in time for changeover and the next hirers without an alternative way to charge the batts?

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13 hours ago, Mad Harold said:

Doing some reading up on using an electric outboard on my Norman 20.

Powered presently by a 8hp outboard and leaving aside the charging and solar requirements for electric power,I am a bit puzzled by the quoted power output of electric outboards.

Some are quoted in pounds of thrust,and others in watts.

My present engine is 8hp,but without tying a spring balance to the mooring,I don't know what it's thrust is.

For example,one manufacturer quotes 100lb of thrust,and another quotes 5hp.

As 1kw =1.341 hp,the manufacturer of the 5hp outboard says the motor is 1200W.I can't understand how a 1200W motor can produce 5hp.

Is the manufacturer telling porkies,or am I misunderstanding something?

lbs thrust is the best measurement of any outboard because it measures the actual force that drives the boat (taking into account that the lbs thrust is measured in the static condition and when the boat is moving things will be slightly different because the propeller is operating under different conditions).

 

hp measurements are the power of the powerhead and do not take account of any losses in the transmission and the propeller efficiency. 

 

for the record, my 40lb Minn Kota should consume 500 watts at full throttle, but actually draws 30amps or about 350 watts.  that produces a speed in still air and water of 5.3kph.  the boat was specifically designed for low drag and has a waterline length of 20ft, maximum beam on the waterline is 3ft (actual beam at the gunwale is 5ft), displacement is 600kg and the hull is very fine with a very shallow transom.  next year I will experiment with a higher pitch prop but any increase in power consumption needs to be balanced against the speed improvements because in my case the range (distance and/or duration) is critical.    I would never want to use an electric outboard on a hull that wasn't specifically designed for low resistance.   a typical cruiser has a wide and relatively deep immersed transom that will create a lot of resistance (the turbulence that you see behinds a typical cruiser is a sign of wasted power).   your hull should ideally be as close to a canoe shape as possible.

 

there are several formulae available to find the resistance of a boat when moving through the water (a measure of skin friction plus wave making at any given speed) - google boat hull drag calculation and take account of the unfair shape of your hull.    an electric outboard providing say 50% more thrust than the calculated resistance should do just fine.

 

this article makes interesting reading regarding hull shapes:

https://arxiv.org/pdf/1803.10695.pdf

 

 

 

7 minutes ago, Mad Harold said:

How much space (in sq mtrs or feet) does 10kw of solar cover (approx)

Thanks.

100watt panel approx 100cm x 50cm.  10kw is unrealistic unless you have a dutch barge of huge widebeam.

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20 minutes ago, Mad Harold said:

How much space (in sq mtrs or feet) does 10kw of solar cover (approx)

Thanks.

You will need a wide beam boat, or a narrow boat towing a 70ft butty covered in solar panels.

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Maybe electric narrowboats are almost here....
 

New kit costs:

15kw electric motor kit - 3k, 15kw batteries - 6.5k, 3kw panels (using about 12m of cabin top) - 2.5k. Total 12k. 

Panels will produce 2kwh in the depths of winter, allowing a 30min cruise each day, and 1kwh for living.  The batteries provide a week-long backup in the event of total panel failure to generate....

 

This means that you still need a solid-fuel stove and alternative cooking and water-heating (gas) arrangements - or a back boiler etc. [Living aboard, I reckon I use 3.5kWh of gas/day, and 48kWh of coal/stove /day when running 24-7].

 

A new diesel costs about 6k.

 

I'm presuming they're about the same cost to fit into the boat.  But then the diesel has running costs(say 400/yr), whilst the electric gets a 25% licence discount from CRT(say 200/yr).  So the break-even point comes after about 10-12 years.

 

It is the winter heating that's the elephant - needing a 2kw continuous feed....

 

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51 minutes ago, Murflynn said:

lbs thrust is the best measurement of any outboard because it measures the actual force that drives the boat (taking into account that the lbs thrust is measured in the static condition and when the boat is moving things will be slightly different because the propeller is operating under different conditions).

 

hp measurements are the power of the powerhead and do not take account of any losses in the transmission and the propeller efficiency. 

 

for the record, my 40lb Minn Kota should consume 500 watts at full throttle, but actually draws 30amps or about 350 watts.  that produces a speed in still air and water of 5.3kph.  the boat was specifically designed for low drag and has a waterline length of 20ft, maximum beam on the waterline is 3ft (actual beam at the gunwale is 5ft), displacement is 600kg and the hull is very fine with a very shallow transom.  next year I will experiment with a higher pitch prop but any increase in power consumption needs to be balanced against the speed improvements because in my case the range (distance and/or duration) is critical.    I would never want to use an electric outboard on a hull that wasn't specifically designed for low resistance.   a typical cruiser has a wide and relatively deep immersed transom that will create a lot of resistance (the turbulence that you see behinds a typical cruiser is a sign of wasted power).   your hull should ideally be as close to a canoe shape as possible.

 

there are several formulae available to find the resistance of a boat when moving through the water (a measure of skin friction plus wave making at any given speed) - google boat hull drag calculation and take account of the unfair shape of your hull.    an electric outboard providing say 50% more thrust than the calculated resistance should do just fine.

 

this article makes interesting reading regarding hull shapes:

https://arxiv.org/pdf/1803.10695.pdf

 

 

 

100watt panel approx 100cm x 50cm.  10kw is unrealistic unless you have a dutch barge of huge widebeam.

No Bi facial panels have a bigger output for thaie size than normal panels and yes it is a big boat, However a narrowboat requires less power to push it along than a widebeam

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