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Bobbybass

Soldered joint on new fuel pipe.

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Hi.

 

I'm fitting an Eberspacher in my boat. 

 

The  Eber fuel inlet is 6mm with a raised lip on the Eber pump that grips the pipe clip.

 

I'm installing new 5/16 copper pipe to a T junction (compression ) on the main engine fuel pipe (5/16 )  just after the engine fuel cut off (Top of tank) 

This T junction will go into a 5/16 cut-off tap especially for the Eber.

 

I'm then running the new 5/16 pipe ( well clamped ) down to the Eber area.

 

I have a 5/16 to 6mm solder reducer … so I intend to reduce the 5/16 to copper 6mm. The 6 mm will then be a short distance and will connect to the Eber pump via a short length of 6mm marine certified rubber pipe.

I'm going to solder a 6mm brass olive onto the 6mm pipe where it attaches to the flexible so that it has a way of the fuel hose clip being prevented from slipping off.

 

So...after all that long winded stuff :

 

Is it OK to use solder reducer and soldered-on olive on the fuel system ?

 

I'm competent at pipe soldering.

 

Thanks all !

 

Bob

 

Edited by Bobbybass

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Mine is all done in compression. I seem to remember my eber came with a compression reducer.

  • Greenie 1

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I think you need silver solder, not the soft stuff, and your flex pipe needs to be kite marked with  ISO 7840, or equivalent.

If I were you I'd look for a compression reducer to hose nozzle. Use two clamps, preferably SS

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From BSS check list;

 

NOTE – soft‐soldered joints are not acceptable. Examiners concerned that particular joints may have been
made using soft solder must require the owner to provide proof that this is not the case.

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Only if you use silver solder.  Soft Solder anywhere in the fuel system is a BSS no-no.

 

So for what you propose, the reducer will be a fail if it is a solder ring type.  You would be compliant if you use an end-fed reducer with silver solder, but many BSS examiners and Surveyors will balk at that, because it is hard to prove you have silver soldered.  Can you not get a 5/16 to 1/4 compression reducer and use 1/4 pipe? 

 

The  soldered on olive is arguably not a fail, since it is not a joint, but since it will be invisible few will notice anyway, provided you use proper pipe clips.  You could just crimp the olive on with a suitably sized fitting then remove the fitting  and nut leaving the olive on the pipe. As said, the flexible  pipe needs to be marked wih the right standards.

 

N

Edited by BEngo
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Plain copper fittings can be brazed with brass filler rod, that would leave an obvious brass brazed ring, acceptable to BSS.

For small fittings this is achievable with a normal gas blowlamp, the correct borax flux and brass brazing rod.

TD'

Edited by Tracy D'arth
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1 hour ago, Loddon said:

Mine is all done in compression. I seem to remember my eber came with a compression reducer.

Mine was £25 off an old BT van...it's a DW4.

I rewired it, and so have done away with the Eber control and it just has an on and off...but it 'cycles' as it should. I tested it with a jar of diesel and a tub of water and it works great. I'm fairly familiar with dismantling etc.

 

Thus...it has a lipped 6mm inlet pipe on the fuel pump.

 

I have the correct stamped marine flex pipe to go between the copper and the pump. I've also ...now...ordered a compression 5/16 to 1/4 adapter, so it will not be soldered..thanks for advice.

 

Yes...I have a sealed..welded... stainless steel exhaust...heat proof wrap...and an inlet silencer 😊..plus proper hull outlet fitting.

 

Exciting times.

 

Thank you all for your advice.

😊😊😊

 

Bob

 

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, BEngo said:

Only if you use silver solder.  Soft Solder anywhere in the fuel system is a BSS no-no.

Minor quibble: my fuel system has soft-soldered joints in the vent pipe from the day tank, and that has never caused a problem at BSS time. The pipe is connected to the top of the tank, being a vent, and even of the joint failed, no fuel would be released.

 

MP.

 

 

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3 minutes ago, MoominPapa said:

my fuel system has soft-soldered joints in the vent pipe from the day tank, and that has never caused a problem at BSS time

The only quibble is that as usual, the examiner probably hasn't read the rules.

It is concerning when they miss something so obvious - what else have they signed off which are non-compliant ?

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MP,

Technically it not compliant, but, as Alan says, all the examiners make things up as they go along.  You set up is not a hazard kn the event of a fire either IMO, so just keep using the same examiner!.

N

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Soft solder would not be allowed on the engine, you will have to read the BSS document carefully to see what it says about diesel heaters, but the best thing is a compression reducer or silver solder. If you silver solder and take some good photos of you doing it then I would hope that a reasonable BSS man would accept that as proof.

 

..............Dave

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Is an 8mm to 6 mm compression not near enough for 5/16" pipe? It's only 62.5 micron difference.

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46 minutes ago, MoominPapa said:

Minor quibble: my fuel system has soft-soldered joints in the vent pipe from the day tank, and that has never caused a problem at BSS time. The pipe is connected to the top of the tank, being a vent, and even of the joint failed, no fuel would be released.

 

MP.

 

 

But fuel vapour could be released into the engine space, rather than outside.

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Yes, 8mm is close enough to 5/16 but it  is best if you use a 5/16 olive on 5/16 pipe..  Diesel is awful stuff for weeping, seeping and creeping.

N

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Just now, BEngo said:

Yes, 8mm is close enough to 5/16 but it  is best if you use a 5/16 olive on 5/16 pipe..  Diesel is awful stuff for weeping, seeping and creeping.

N

Good plan.

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Easyflo No.2 is the one you want, melts at 617 deg.C,. about the lowest on the market but requires the right flux. (I can help out with a "dealer bag" of Easyflo flux for the cost of postage.) Easyfol is not a gap filler being quite fluid when molten but it does require about 0,01mm gap for penetration. When cleaned after soldering it will exhibit a small filet that is of a lighter colour than the copper, (more yellow), that should satisfy the most obdurate inspector and if that fails offer him a sharp point and invite him to scratch the filet to see if it is soft like lead.

There is also a type of copper alloy brazing material that I understand contains a small percentage of phosphorous that is favoured by the refrigeration trade because it requires no flux and thus no complicated internal pipe cleaning. I cannot for the life of me remember the name of the stuff although I have used it, my excuse being that I am of a certain age . . .:rolleyes:

One trick if you don't want the stuff to run where it is not wanted is to paint around the joint area with Tipex correction fluid, don't ask me how it works 'cos it just does, it stops the solder running like magic!

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Thanks all.

 

I abandoned the solder joint and ordered a 5/16 to 1/4 compression adapter.

The 1/4 pipe will then attach to certified flexible  marine pipe...about 3 inches long to attach to my Eber fuel pump.

 

Thanks again. 😊

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7 minutes ago, Man 'o Kent said:

Easyflo No.2 is the one you want, melts at 617 deg.C,. about the lowest on the market but requires the right flux. (I can help out with a "dealer bag" of Easyflo flux for the cost of postage.) Easyfol is not a gap filler being quite fluid when molten but it does require about 0,01mm gap for penetration. When cleaned after soldering it will exhibit a small filet that is of a lighter colour than the copper, (more yellow), that should satisfy the most obdurate inspector and if that fails offer him a sharp point and invite him to scratch the filet to see if it is soft like lead.

There is also a type of copper alloy brazing material that I understand contains a small percentage of phosphorous that is favoured by the refrigeration trade because it requires no flux and thus no complicated internal pipe cleaning. I cannot for the life of me remember the name of the stuff although I have used it, my excuse being that I am of a certain age . . .:rolleyes:

One trick if you don't want the stuff to run where it is not wanted is to paint around the joint area with Tipex correction fluid, don't ask me how it works 'cos it just does, it stops the solder running like magic!

Does it stop the solder from running, or just correct any runs afterwards 🙂

 

50 minutes ago, BEngo said:

Yes, 8mm is close enough to 5/16 but it  is best if you use a 5/16 olive on 5/16 pipe..  Diesel is awful stuff for weeping, seeping and creeping.

N

I asked a related question of a reputable supplier of genuine Wade fittings, and although he did not give a straight answer he inferred that 5/6 and 8mm olives come straight out of the same box. I suppose I should have bought a few of each and measured them.

I do have a few of each from other suppliers and they look to be identical, but maybe they also use the same box approach.   In the past I purchased some 5/16 fittings from eBay (advertised as Wade but actually unbranded) and these looked like 8mm fittings to me.

 

................Dave

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I think it might depend on the olive type.  The copper ones don't have any features that make them look as though they are  precise in any dimension.  Brass olives on  the other hand appear to have been  turned, so might be expected to be more carefully toleranced.

 

I seem to recall that at one time Wade marked their imperial fittings with the pipe size on  the nut. 

 

I have not investigated metric fittings.  Do the nuts have metric threads or are they R or  G series threads (BSP in drag)? 

N

 

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46 minutes ago, BEngo said:

I think it might depend on the olive type.  The copper ones don't have any features that make them look as though they are  precise in any dimension.  Brass olives on  the other hand appear to have been  turned, so might be expected to be more carefully toleranced.

 

I seem to recall that at one time Wade marked their imperial fittings with the pipe size on  the nut. 

 

I have not investigated metric fittings.  Do the nuts have metric threads or are they R or  G series threads (BSP in drag)? 

N

 

Its a minefield. Wade do stamp the size on their nuts (imperial ad metric). Wade imperial fittings have a BSP thread and a funny hexagon size. Metric fittings have a metric thread. Its all in the Wade document if you have the determination to read it.  A lot of non Wade stuff appears not to stick to these conventions and stuff sold as 5/16 looks to have the metric threads.

 

The fuel system on our boat (fittings on the fuel tank etc) is 5/16 but everything on the engine (early Beta JD3) is metric 8mm with a conversion somewhere along the way so I have been forced to learn all about these things..

 

I think an 8mm nut will screw onto a 5/16 fitting, but will go tight after a few turns, dunno if it has compressed the olive before the threads bind, but an 5/16 nut is too small to fit an 8mm fitting, or maybe its the other way about 🙂.

 

I had to improvise a fuel system in an emergency and it was traumatic, I've now got a little bit of copper pipe with a 5/16 nut on one end and 8mm on the other to get me out of trouble.

 

 

......................Dave

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