Tides & Brentford Lock

[Richardcn]

Hi all

 

We're looking at moving my step-son's new boat off the Thames soon but one thing is confusing me about the availability of Brentford Lock. There appears to be perfectly usable tides next week but very few openings listed on the Brentford tide tables. Is this purely because they fall slightly outside of normal manned hours or is there something else I'm missing? If yes then would making a 'outside normal hours' booking solve this?

 

Btw I am aware that there are still some restrictions currently preventing us from moving.

 

[OldGoat]

Apart from the 'requests' made by EA for folk NOT to cruise, they've made it difficult in some locations for those who ignore their instructions by turning of the 'leccy AND not having hand winding capabilities for some locks. If that's not enough, some idiot has managed to sink a broadbeam canal boat across the approach channel to Sunbury lock and they've said - more firmly than usual "thou shall not pass". From the photos the wreck buouy (sp:) looks perilousl close to the Surrey bank and the overhanging trees may make passage - even for a NB impossible  (rather than 'not allowed' 

 

Given that you've researched the tides, you may already be aware - but this may help others who have the temerity to leave the Thames...

 

 

[David Mack]

High tide at Brentford is an hour after London Bridge and the time window at Brentford is 2 hours either side of high tide, so from one hour before High Tide London Bridge to 3 hours after.

Looks like they are not working this Sunday and on the other days with no window shown, the tide window is either outside working hours or overlaps normal working hours by too little to allow passage.

[Scholar Gypsy]

1 hour ago, David Mack said:

High tide at Brentford is an hour after London Bridge and the time window at Brentford is 2 hours either side of high tide, so from one hour before High Tide London Bridge to 3 hours after.

Looks like they are not working this Sunday and on the other days with no window shown, the tide window is either outside working hours or overlaps normal working hours by too little to allow passage.

I hope to talk to CRT about all this next week. There are several big changes to previous operating procedures buried here. Some of them make sense as part of the virus etc. But long term??

[Richardcn]

2 hours ago, OldGoat said:

Apart from the 'requests' made by EA for folk NOT to cruise, they've made it difficult in some locations for those who ignore their instructions by turning of the 'leccy AND not having hand winding capabilities for some locks. If that's not enough, some idiot has managed to sink a broadbeam canal boat across the approach channel to Sunbury lock and they've said - more firmly than usual "thou shall not pass". From the photos the wreck buouy (sp:) looks perilousl close to the Surrey bank and the overhanging trees may make passage - even for a NB impossible  (rather than 'not allowed' 

 

Given that you've researched the tides, you may already be aware - but this may help others who have the temerity to leave the Thames...

 

 

Yup aware of the current issues. They were apparently assessing the sunken widebeam today.

[Richardcn]

2 hours ago, David Mack said:

High tide at Brentford is an hour after London Bridge and the time window at Brentford is 2 hours either side of high tide, so from one hour before High Tide London Bridge to 3 hours after.

Looks like they are not working this Sunday and on the other days with no window shown, the tide window is either outside working hours or overlaps normal working hours by too little to allow passage.

Is it not possible to book the lock outside of normal hours though? I thought that I'd read somewhere that you could but I've read so much over the past few weeks that I may just be mis-remembering!

1 hour ago, Scholar Gypsy said:

I hope to talk to CRT about all this next week. There are several big changes to previous operating procedures buried here. Some of them make sense as part of the virus etc. But long term??

I'd be very interested to know the outcome, for obvious reasons

Edited May 22, 2020 by Richardcn
Spellung

[Scholar Gypsy]

I will report back. 

[TheBiscuits]

1 hour ago, Scholar Gypsy said:

I hope to talk to CRT about all this next week. There are several big changes to previous operating procedures buried here. Some of them make sense as part of the virus etc. But long term??

 

There are a lot of staff on furlough from CRT.  The decision last week to let us go and look at our boats seems to have caught CRT on the hop, so things should get more sensible once staff are physically available on the ground again.  Hopefully!

[Scholar Gypsy]

In brief:

 

* CRT have limited staff available during June, so Brentford is only open for a couple of days  a week;

* to make the transit from Teddington you need to book the lock there and the one at Brentford. Lock availability at both ends is not currently coordinated between CRT and EA.

* discussions continue on the longer term arrangements ie from July onwards.   IWA are leading on this,  RYA also involved. 

* in the meantime,  do not assume that the arrangements in place in past years will persist. 

Edited May 27, 2020 by Scholar Gypsy

[Richardcn]

1 hour ago, Scholar Gypsy said:

In brief:

 

* CRT have limited staff available during June, so Brentford is only open for a couple of days  a week;

* to make the transit from Teddington you need to book the lock there and the one at Brentford. Lock availability at both ends is not currently coordinated between CRT and EA.

* discussions continue on the longer term arrangements ie from July onwards.   IWA are leading on this,  RYA also involved. 

* in the meantime,  do not assume that the arrangements in place in past years will persist. 

Thanks for the update.

 

I do currently have a booking at Brentford but it's pretty useless as we'd have to do the run from Teddington in only 30 minutes and/or against the tide which just doesn't seem like a good idea. Any slight delay and we'd miss the lock, then we'd be stuffed. I'm trying to convince them to extend their restricted hours to give us (and anybody else) the chance to make the passage. Of course, I'd still need to book Teddington and there's the small issue of the sunken widebeam at Sunbury Lock but that is due to be refloated next week after divers do an assessment today (eta Fri actually) I believe.

 

Any out of the box ideas would be welcomed (apart from going up the Oxford that is).

Edited May 27, 2020 by Richardcn

[Alan de Enfield]

2 minutes ago, Richardcn said:

............….and there's the small issue of the sunken widebeam at Sunbury Lock but that is due to be refloated next week after divers do an assessment today, I believe.

and if the assessment is not good , and it is not raised next week ?

 

I'd wait until I knew that the wreck had been removed and then make plans.

[Richardcn]

4 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

and if the assessment is not good , and it is not raised next week ?

 

I'd wait until I knew that the wreck had been removed and then make plans.

Yes I would normally agree with that but given the other lock restrictions (72hrs noticed required) and limited availability we could miss a small window of opportunity if we're not prepared.

Edited May 27, 2020 by Richardcn
Spellubg

[Scholar Gypsy]

The tide is fairly gentle at the top end of the tideway,  so i would just set off good and early from  teddingtonand punch the incoming tide.  It will be a bit slow and boring,  but you should get there. If you leave early enough then there is no tide down to Richmond....

[Richardcn]

2 minutes ago, Scholar Gypsy said:

The tide is fairly gentle at the top end of the tideway,  so i would just set off good and early from  teddingtonand punch the incoming tide.  It will be a bit slow and boring,  but you should get there. If you leave early enough then there is no tide down to Richmond....

Well I'm not one to rule out options until I've considered them carefully so I'll hold onto this as a possibility. However, being new to the river with a new (to us) boat and on a very restricted schedule then cruising would usually go against my better judgement, so I'd need some convincing! We have already handled the boat and it's definitely no slouch so maybe, just maybe. From my calculations we'd need to be averaging about 10mph (over the bed) to do this which is a lot faster than I've ever done in a narrowboat!

[ditchcrawler]

3 minutes ago, Richardcn said:

Well I'm not one to rule out options until I've considered them carefully so I'll hold onto this as a possibility. However, being new to the river with a new (to us) boat and on a very restricted schedule then cruising would usually go against my better judgement, so I'd need some convincing! We have already handled the boat and it's definitely no slouch so maybe, just maybe. From my calculations we'd need to be averaging about 10mph (over the bed) to do this which is a lot faster than I've ever done in a narrowboat!

I have always timed it to wait for Richmod to lift and then go 

 

[OldGoat]

11 minutes ago, Richardcn said:

Well I'm not one to rule out options until I've considered them carefully so I'll hold onto this as a possibility. However, being new to the river with a new (to us) boat and on a very restricted schedule then cruising would usually go against my better judgement, so I'd need some convincing! We have already handled the boat and it's definitely no slouch so maybe, just maybe. From my calculations we'd need to be averaging about 10mph (over the bed) to do this which is a lot faster than I've ever done in a narrowboat!

You'd be pushed (and more...) to travel at 10 mph on the non tidal Thames in a NB , quite apart from exceeding the speed limit X 2 !

I've got a big engine in my NB as well as extended swims and it would work quite hard to do 6mph upstream. Downstream is another matter, she purrs along at  6mph in the open reach, so I must rememner to slow down in the lock cuts.

 

EA have modified their 'recommendation' about their wreck at Sunbury, they now say it can be passed with care - with the ryder that the lock is closed . I've not been down that way for years - but isn't the old barge lock still available? It's quite heavy to operate, but it's a'proper lock' thus not too frightening to canal folk.

It might be worth contacting the Duty Officer for proper advice.

EA have been making a huge effort recently - the acting HM is boating friendly and they're even working weekends to fix some of the problems.

[Richardcn]

22 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

I have always timed it to wait for Richmod to lift and then go 

 

Can you just fill in the detail on that please (I'm assuming you're also in narrowboat btw).

 

When would you leave leave Teddington (let's say with reference to HT London Bridge) in order to time Richmond.

How much is the journey would be against the tide?

What is the usual trip time Teddington-Brentford?

Are Teddington Lockies 'happy' to allow you through so' early', as this would appear to be against all the advice that I've read, up until now that is!

Edited May 27, 2020 by Richardcn

[Scholar Gypsy]

25 minutes ago, Richardcn said:

Well I'm not one to rule out options until I've considered them carefully so I'll hold onto this as a possibility. However, being new to the river with a new (to us) boat and on a very restricted schedule then cruising would usually go against my better judgement, so I'd need some convincing! We have already handled the boat and it's definitely no slouch so maybe, just maybe. From my calculations we'd need to be averaging about 10mph (over the bed) to do this which is a lot faster than I've ever done in a narrowboat!

What date are you looking at?

What is the slot that CRT have offered you?

 

You need to start earlier,  as 10mph is indeed not credible. 

[Richardcn]

3 minutes ago, OldGoat said:

You'd be pushed (and more...) to travel at 10 mph on the non tidal Thames in a NB , quite apart from exceeding the speed limit X 2 !

I was talking about the Tidal stretch and also not allowing for  any current. Just pointing out that it would need to be that speed IF we left at the advised point time.

[ditchcrawler]

5 minutes ago, Richardcn said:

Can you just fill in the detail on that please (I'm assuming you're also in narrowboat btw).

 

When would you leave leave Teddington (let's say with reference to HT London Bridge) in order to time Richmond.

How much is the journey would be against the tide?

What is the usual trip time Teddington-Brentford?

Are Teddington Lockies 'happy' to allow you through so' early', as this would appear to be against all the advice that I've read, up until now that is!

A narrowboat with a Beta BD3 engine. Discused with the lock keeper at Teddington on what time to leave, took his advice and no idea how that compares with London Bridge and arrived at Richmond ether just before or as the barrier was lifting, its then about 2 hours I think into the tide heading down to Brentford. With the tide at Brentford but not that fast.

[Richardcn]

8 minutes ago, OldGoat said:

They have modified their 'recommendation' about their wreck at Sunbury, they now say it can be passed with care - with the ryder that the lock is closed .

Where did you read this please? EA's Facebook page wasn't showing this an hour ago and I've not received this info in any of their email updates.

[Richardcn]

8 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

A narrowboat with a Beta BD3 engine. Discused with the lock keeper at Teddington on what time to leave, took his advice and no idea how that compares with London Bridge and arrived at Richmond ether just before or as the barrier was lifting, its then about 2 hours I think into the tide heading down to Brentford. With the tide at Brentford but not that fast.

Okay I can see how that might work for us. Was the lockie's advice based on your need to be at Brentford at a specific time (or within a specific window). All the written advice that I've seen (incl Teddington Lock website) suggests leaving Tedd half an hour (or so) before high water there and a trip time of about an hour (although CRT say 45 mins). Your timings seem to suggest leaving much earlier but I can see how that might give us a chance if CRT are unable to broaden the window.

[Richardcn]

26 minutes ago, Scholar Gypsy said:

What date are you looking at?

What is the slot that CRT have offered you?

 

You need to start earlier,  as 10mph is indeed not credible. 

Fri 5th June

Brentford opening 1315 - 1515

High Tide London Bridge 1403

[Mike Adams]

Check all the fiqures are GMT or BST first. In a narrowboat you can leave Teddington at any state of the tide and make for Richmond half lock. I not sure of the current state of the operation of Richmond Lock but you can wait on the wall above the lock and have some lunch. On neap tides you should be OK to go through the lock if is open and wait around at Brentford otherwise as soon as the barriers go up set off and just push the tide around the corner. It shouldn't take much more than half an hour to get to Brentord even against the tide and you should get there well before HW Brentford.

[ditchcrawler]

19 minutes ago, Richardcn said:

Okay I can see how that might work for us. Was the lockie's advice based on your need to be at Brentford at a specific time (or within a specific window). All the written advice that I've seen (incl Teddington Lock website) suggests leaving Tedd half an hour (or so) before high water there and a trip time of about an hour (although CRT say 45 mins). Your timings seem to suggest leaving much earlier but I can see how that might give us a chance if CRT are unable to broaden the window.

No idea was was just coming down the Tames to London and asked the Tedington Keeper what would be the best time to leave tomorrow when I moored above the lock for the night and followed his advice.