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alistair1537

Routing cables, water and gas pipes ?

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Hi All

 

I am fitting out at present and need some tips or advice regarding what I am doing or planning. I have started running cable tray under the gunnel to hold electrical 230V cables. My lighting will be from overhead drop-off panel - recessed and uplights - so that cabling will run in a central panel through the length of the boat - water pipes at floor level, but what about my gas line - I have a 6m line of 15mm copper to tee to a gas cooker/oven and then forward to a hot water heater near the shower. This I am going to run around 600mm high - clipped to the battens. All this to be battened out by horizontal battens to provide clearance and support. 

Edited by alistair1537
Duh, spelling

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Don' t forget you will need cables all the way to the front for headlamp, horn, navlights, front deck lights etc.

Your gas pipe would be less vulnerable at gunnel level, separated from the 230 and 12v cables.  Plastic box  trunking is usually preferred to cable tray because it provides the gas /electric separation needed by RCD and BSS.

 

What standard are you building to? Are you building a liveaboard?  Alan de E has previously put the electrical requirements on here.  You should read these  and the BSS inspection guide which is available on line.  The PD for BS 5482 part 3 is also worth a look.  Some  libraries may help here with their on line access to BSI.

 

Finally, you need to be a competent person in law to do your own gas work, but if you pay someone they need to be Gas  Safe registered with endorsements for LPG and boats.  Mike the Boilerman is the gas rules expert.

 

N

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27 minutes ago, alistair1537 said:

Hi All

 

I am fitting out at present and need some tips or advice regarding what I am doing or planning. I have started running cable tray under the gunnel to hold electrical 230V cables. My lighting will be from overhead drop-off panel - recessed and uplights - so that cabling will run in a central panel through the length of the boat - water pipes at floor level, but what about my gas line - I have a 6m line of 15mm copper to tee to a gas cooker/oven and then forward to a hot water heater near the shower. This I am going to run around 600mm high - clipped to the battens. All this to be battened out by horizontal battens to provide clearance and support. 

 

If you send me a PM (message) with your email address I can send you copies of the EN specifications for 'Small Craft'

 

Low Voltage Cable installation (ie 12v / 24v DC)

Mains Cable Installation (230v AC)

LPG Gas Installations

Fuel Hoses / Pipes

 

They may not be the latest editions but will give you something to work with.

 

Are you building in compliance with the RCD ?

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47 minutes ago, alistair1537 said:

I have a 6m line of 15mm copper to tee to a gas cooker/oven and then forward to a hot water heater near the shower.

 

I do hope this is not bog standard half-hard rigid domestic copper tube. You might get away with this passing BSS but it is not appropriate for a boat and is not PD54823 compliant. 

 

 

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3 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

I do hope this is not bog standard half-hard rigid domestic copper tube. You might get away with this passing BSS but it is not appropriate for a boat and is not PD54823 compliant. 

 

 

It is the ISO 10239 as referred to in the RCD Standards I was offering the OP - is this no longer applicable  ?

 

 

 

Screenshot (100).png

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EN 10133 has now been amalgamated into EN 13297. These two standards are for DC and AC cable installations.

There have been no changes to either standards since 2013

Edited by Keith M

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2 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

It is the ISO 10239 as referred to in the RCD Standards I was offering the OP - is this no longer applicable  ?

 

I stand corrected, you are more likely right than me.

 

It's coming up to five years since I did any training on boat LPG and the standards seem to have changed at least twice since then! 

 

I still bet rigid copper is not allowed though!

 

 

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Also ensure that the entire run of gas pipe, including any tees, can be viewed by your BSS inspector - don't box any of it in.

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37 minutes ago, WotEver said:

Also ensure that the entire run of gas pipe, including any tees, can be viewed by your BSS inspector - don't box any of it in.

I'm not sure that the BSS is applied in Ireland.

 

I'm new to this forum - I bought a barge ex Liverpool and shipped it over to Ireland - a widebeam sailaway. I understand there is a bit of bias against widebeam boats, but our locks can fit them so I thought, Why not? I like the extra room. Anyway, I'm in the process of fitting out so I may require pointers before making a serious hash of things. I plan to retire and live aboard - perhaps travel to France or Germany for a season or two?

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1 minute ago, Alan de Enfield said:

I'm not sure that the BSS is applied in Ireland.

 

I'm new to this forum - I bought a barge ex Liverpool and shipped it over to Ireland - a widebeam sailaway. I understand there is a bit of bias against widebeam boats, but our locks can fit them so I thought, Why not? I like the extra room. Anyway, I'm in the process of fitting out so I may require pointers before making a serious hash of things. I plan to retire and live aboard - perhaps travel to France or Germany for a season or two?

 

But a new boat taken to France of Germany may well need to be ISO 10239 compliant. 

 

 

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4 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

But a new boat taken to France of Germany may well need to be ISO 10239 compliant. 

 

 

The same being if when he says 'Ireland', he means Ireland (Eire) and not NI

 

By the end of this year we will not be in the EU and the boat will (possibly) require a Post Construction survey to ensure compliance if it is not just a 'short time visitor'.

 

Very much an unknown at the moment, but plan for the worst and hope for the best.

Edited by Alan de Enfield

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1 hour ago, WotEver said:

Also ensure that the entire run of gas pipe, including any tees, can be viewed by your BSS inspector - don't box any of it in.

And, I believe, must be able to be inspected without the use of tools.   Easiest thing is to run it under the gunwale until it goes behind cupboards.

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16 minutes ago, dor said:

And, I believe, must be able to be inspected without the use of tools.   Easiest thing is to run it under the gunwale until it goes behind cupboards.

"Inside the back of cupboards" rather than "behind cupboards".

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33 minutes ago, David Mack said:

"Inside the back of cupboards" rather than "behind cupboards".

 

Never mind all that. Run it at ceiling level on the surface. Maximum safety as LPG flow downwards if it leaks and you'll get the best chance of smelling it. In addition high level gives the smallest chance of damaging it and a nicely installed soft copper run clipped with copper saddle clips and polished every few months is a thing of beauty visitors nearly always comment on. 

 

 

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13 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

polished every few months

I know a few Latvians but don't know about the current availability of the Polish.

Is there some obvious difference when something has been Polished rather than Latvianised ?

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1 hour ago, David Mack said:

"Inside the back of cupboards" rather than "behind cupboards".

Fair enough. I have a small access panel on the end of the cupboard that can be removed to allow inspection of the pipe, or at least enough to show there are no joints in the pipe.

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1 hour ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Never mind all that. Run it at ceiling level on the surface. Maximum safety as LPG flow downwards if it leaks and you'll get the best chance of smelling it. In addition high level gives the smallest chance of damaging it and a nicely installed soft copper run clipped with copper saddle clips and polished every few months is a thing of beauty visitors nearly always comment on. 

 

 

As per the old Thames Conservancy Launch Regulations. They preferred the pipes to run at high level outside the boat.

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Thanks for the comments and advice, I have Alan sending me some documents to help as well - So from what I have managed to get so far is that - The installation of the gas lines must be done by someone certified in LPG for boats - the entire line should be able to be inspected without any tools required - it must be of the right material for boats. It must be separated from the electrical trunking. 

 

On the electrical side - Long runs are needed for bow mounted devices - The reason I chose cable tray - actually basket - over trunking is the clipping ease it provides - to my mind having a long cable lying in trunking during a bump or two, may move it enough to disconnect and short? 

 

Learn learn learn...

 

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1 minute ago, alistair1537 said:

Thanks for the comments and advice, I have Alan sending me some documents to help as well - So from what I have managed to get so far is that - The installation of the gas lines must be done by someone certified in LPG for boats - the entire line should be able to be inspected without any tools required - it must be of the right material for boats. It must be separated from the electrical trunking. 

 

On the electrical side - Long runs are needed for bow mounted devices - The reason I chose cable tray - actually basket - over trunking is the clipping ease it provides - to my mind having a long cable lying in trunking during a bump or two, may move it enough to disconnect and short? 

 

Learn learn learn...

 

 I am not sure the red bit is 100% correct. For the BSS they only have to be competent. No idea about the RCD but I don't see it if its installed as per the ISOs. Different regs may apply to boats that are long term homes or let for hire. An insurance company may take a different view in case of a claim.

 

Will/can alistair1537  post a link to the regs that demand this?

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16 minutes ago, alistair1537 said:

The installation of the gas lines must be done by someone certified in LPG for boats

 

I agree with Tony above. This is simply not true. It paints an incomplete picture. 

 

The truth is, if this boat is to be a residence, AND the person installing the gas system is to be paid for their work, then yes the person must be both certified for LPG in boats and Gas Safe Registered. Otherwise, anyone competent can do it. 

 

(Whether or not they have the right bits of paper.)

 

 

 

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6 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

I agree with Tony above. This is simply not true. It paints an incomplete picture. 

 

The truth is, if this boat is to be a residence, AND the person installing the gas system is to be paid for their work, then yes the person must be both certified for LPG in boats and Gas Safe Registered. Otherwise, anyone competent can do it. 

 

(Whether or not they have the right bits of paper.)

 

 

 

But if something goes wrong and there is an investigation, then the person who fitted the gas system may have difficulty convincing the authorities of his 'competence' if he/she does not have the bits of paper.

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3 minutes ago, David Mack said:

But if something goes wrong and there is an investigation, then the person who fitted the gas system may have difficulty convincing the authorities of his 'competence' if he/she does not have the bits of paper.

 

If "something goes wrong", they will have demonstrated their incompetence, probably to the full satisfaction of the court. QED.

 

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Hi Tony and Mike - I see now, so, I was planning to install myself, and have my mate, who is RGI certified - but not for boats, give it a look over to see whether it is compliant? I took the view of someone who posted above, that it must be done by a registered for boats installer - my bad. 

 

My experience is extensive in plumbing and electrical work - not much in gas but I do know how to make a gas line up - I just need to be helped with what is code or not? Be assured that I will follow the code. I am good mates with a local boat surveyor here in ROI, but with the current shutdown I can't invite him over for a look at what is being done? Would it be ok if I posted pics as I go?

 

Cheers

 

Alistair

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4 minutes ago, alistair1537 said:

Hi Tony and Mike - I see now, so, I was planning to install myself, and have my mate, who is RGI certified - but not for boats, give it a look over to see whether it is compliant? I took the view of someone who posted above, that it must be done by a registered for boats installer - my bad.

 

Your mate will be working "out of scope" advising you. He is no better as an advisor than the bloke behind the counter in the butchers shop. He should KNOW this already!!!!!

 

Using someone qualified in boats and GSR registered is very sensible and good advice, it is just not a legal requirement unless the boat will be a residence. Then it WILL be. Both Tony and I were quibbling about this very narrow point. 

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24 minutes ago, alistair1537 said:

Hi Tony and Mike - I see now, so, I was planning to install myself, and have my mate, who is RGI certified - but not for boats, give it a look over to see whether it is compliant? I took the view of someone who posted above, that it must be done by a registered for boats installer - my bad. 

Could you answer the question regarding your intentions :

 

Are you building in compliance with the RCD or not ?

 

Advice and information given will be quite different - for example if building in compliance then YOU are the boat builder, if you subcontract any of the work (ie Gas) then you as the builder have to sign the documents to say that your subcontractor has done all the work in compliance with the required regulations. Will you know if he has or has not ?

 

The regulations about 'sail-aways' changed in the revised rules in 2017

 

The new Directive has effectively put an end to Sail away boats (completed to all variety of levels) being supplied with an Annex lll(a) Declaration as was previously possible under Directive 94/25/EU. Under the new Directive (2013/53/EU) Sail aways (including hull only) would need to be supplied as completed craft.

Therefore for anyone purchasing a narrow boat sail away from 18th January 2017 must ensure you have the necessary paperwork from your boat builder that is required of a ‘completed’ craft up to the current point of completion, this includes:

  • A builders plate – makers details and technical information
  • A CE mark
  • A Craft or Hull Identification Number (CIN or HIN) – it is carried in two places on the boat; one should be hidden for security.
  • An owners manual with information needed to use and maintain the boat safety
  • A declaration of conformity (DoC)

A CE marked craft shows the craft is compliant when it was placed on the market for the first time. It remains valid unless a major alteration to the craft takes place which would require a re-assessment of the craft.

‘Major Craft Conversion’ would be applicable to the fit out of the majority of sail away boats, and needs to be factored in when planning your fit out. Once you have completed the fit out of your sail away boat, the boat would require a Post Construction Assessment and the documentation, builders plate and CE markings all need to be updated. Although a self assessment is possible, it is not recommended as the fitter would resume all responsibility as the manufacturer and it is also a lengthy and involved process. In the worse case scenario, it could mean you are held criminally responsible if the boat sank and there was loss of life. It is recommended that you appoint a professional to complete the post construction assessment, this would be at of cost of around £2000.

Edited by Alan de Enfield

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