MoominPapa Posted February 8, 2020 Report Share Posted February 8, 2020 3 hours ago, Big Eddie said: It is a copper tank with what looks like brass fittings, and would guess it could easily hold 25 30 ltr Lovely. Put a big tin of Brasso on your Christmas list. They don't run full, so 20l might be more realistic. Only one oil change a year though. MP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Eddie Posted February 8, 2020 Author Report Share Posted February 8, 2020 Thanks for that. why such a big tank though? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MoominPapa Posted February 8, 2020 Report Share Posted February 8, 2020 3 hours ago, Big Eddie said: Thanks for that. why such a big tank though? Dunno for sure, Some guesses. Dry sump (for marine engines) is partly about long duration running. You can check the level and top up without stopping the engine, and run for weeks without running out of oil when running generators and the like. You need more oil than a wet sump to be sure that the oil pickup is always submerged because it takes longer for the oil to drop into the sump and get scavenged back to the oil tank, so more oil is in transit around the engine when it's running. The tank has strainers in so needs room for those. This is the era before detergent oils when the solids were expected to drop out into the bottom of the tank, so it needs to be big enough to be able to get in there and clean it out. MP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BWM Posted February 8, 2020 Report Share Posted February 8, 2020 4 hours ago, Big Eddie said: Thanks for that. why such a big tank though? Marine units designed for running on rough water and on coastal for long periods. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Mack Posted February 8, 2020 Report Share Posted February 8, 2020 (edited) FR6 on ebay https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/223898022352 Changeover valves clearly visible. Edited February 8, 2020 by David Mack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NB Esk Posted February 9, 2020 Report Share Posted February 9, 2020 10 hours ago, David Mack said: FR6 on ebay https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/223898022352 Changeover valves clearly visible. For sale with a broken water pump.......I think I can see how the water pump broke. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cuthound Posted February 9, 2020 Report Share Posted February 9, 2020 (edited) 22 hours ago, MoominPapa said: Dunno for sure, Some guesses. Dry sump (for marine engines) is partly about long duration running. You can check the level and top up without stopping the engine, and run for weeks without running out of oil when running generators and the like. You need more oil than a wet sump to be sure that the oil pickup is always submerged because it takes longer for the oil to drop into the sump and get scavenged back to the oil tank, so more oil is in transit around the engine when it's running. The tank has strainers in so needs room for those. This is the era before detergent oils when the solids were expected to drop out into the bottom of the tank, so it needs to be big enough to be able to get in there and clean it out. MP. I thought the main advantage of a dry sump engine was to allow higher cornering speeds without wrecking the engine from oil starvation, as the oil in a wet sump is forced to one side by the centrifugal forces preventing thevoil pump from circulating it? Helpful whe hammering along the Oxford Summit ?? Edited February 9, 2020 by cuthound Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MtB Posted February 9, 2020 Report Share Posted February 9, 2020 11 hours ago, NB Esk said: For sale with a broken water pump.......I think I can see how the water pump broke. Lol I can't imagine it working like that, no!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesWoolcock Posted February 10, 2020 Report Share Posted February 10, 2020 Hello, Another FR owner here. The Decompression Lever is at the front of the head assembly and is there for hand starting. All FRs had a hand start but for electric start it's use is unnecessary. It should not be used for stopping the engine; the engine control lever on the left hand side and in the pump cover plates should be used. It controls the rack. Forward to stop, back to run. Vertical (I think) for extra fuel but generally not needed The Changeover Levers control the high or low compression. Up is high compression for cold starting and they should be pushed down to low compression after a short time for running. These engines were often fitted to tugs (as in this boat) and I have little doubt that some tug captains would have abused them on occasions for extra umph! This engine (FR3) had them renewed a few years ago but they leaked so much their use was soon abandoned. The engine starts and runs at low compression all the time and is much friendlier to an elderly engine's bottom end. In the warmer months it starts fine, but in colder weather the trick is this: Remove the Air Cleaner by the two clips. Incidentally the felt discs in this should always be kept DRY and cleaned by knocking or vacuuming the dust out. There is an oil bath in the bottom of the Air Cleaner housing and it should be used. Close down the throttle. Aim the flame of a DIY gas torch into the Air Cleaner body, but try not to consume all the air which the engine will need to start so don't poke it directly down the air induction tube. Press the starter button and gently open the throttle and away she goes.... Put away the torch and replace the Air Cleaner And now the oil tank. Marine versions (Engine number ending in MP for marine propulsion) are all dry sump and there is only a small capacity "sump" on the bottom of the engine which collects the oil for the scavenge pump to pop back into the copper tank. 25Litres capacity is about right. Leave this arrangement well alone. I hope this helps. James 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OptedOut Posted February 11, 2020 Report Share Posted February 11, 2020 On 08/02/2020 at 21:07, MoominPapa said: You need more oil than a wet sump to be sure that the oil pickup is always submerged because it takes longer for the oil to drop into the sump and get scavenged back to the oil tank, so more oil is in transit around the engine when it's running. If it's the same as motorbikes the engine oil pump is fed direct from the tank? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Eddie Posted February 11, 2020 Author Report Share Posted February 11, 2020 On 10/02/2020 at 01:08, JamesWoolcock said: Hello, Another FR owner here. The Decompression Lever is at the front of the head assembly and is there for hand starting. All FRs had a hand start but for electric start it's use is unnecessary. It should not be used for stopping the engine; the engine control lever on the left hand side and in the pump cover plates should be used. It controls the rack. Forward to stop, back to run. Vertical (I think) for extra fuel but generally not needed The Changeover Levers control the high or low compression. Up is high compression for cold starting and they should be pushed down to low compression after a short time for running. These engines were often fitted to tugs (as in this boat) and I have little doubt that some tug captains would have abused them on occasions for extra umph! This engine (FR3) had them renewed a few years ago but they leaked so much their use was soon abandoned. The engine starts and runs at low compression all the time and is much friendlier to an elderly engine's bottom end. In the warmer months it starts fine, but in colder weather the trick is this: Remove the Air Cleaner by the two clips. Incidentally the felt discs in this should always be kept DRY and cleaned by knocking or vacuuming the dust out. There is an oil bath in the bottom of the Air Cleaner housing and it should be used. Close down the throttle. Aim the flame of a DIY gas torch into the Air Cleaner body, but try not to consume all the air which the engine will need to start so don't poke it directly down the air induction tube. Press the starter button and gently open the throttle and away she goes.... Put away the torch and replace the Air Cleaner And now the oil tank. Marine versions (Engine number ending in MP for marine propulsion) are all dry sump and there is only a small capacity "sump" on the bottom of the engine which collects the oil for the scavenge pump to pop back into the copper tank. 25Litres capacity is about right. Leave this arrangement well alone. I hope this helps. James Thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RLWP Posted February 11, 2020 Report Share Posted February 11, 2020 (edited) On 10/02/2020 at 01:08, JamesWoolcock said: This engine (FR3) had them renewed a few years ago but they leaked so much their use was soon abandoned. The engine starts and runs at low compression all the time and is much friendlier to an elderly engine's bottom end. In the warmer months it starts fine, but in colder weather the trick is this: Remove the Air Cleaner by the two clips. Incidentally the felt discs in this should always be kept DRY and cleaned by knocking or vacuuming the dust out. There is an oil bath in the bottom of the Air Cleaner housing and it should be used. Close down the throttle. Aim the flame of a DIY gas torch into the Air Cleaner body, but try not to consume all the air which the engine will need to start so don't poke it directly down the air induction tube. Press the starter button and gently open the throttle and away she goes.... Put away the torch and replace the Air Cleaner You need a gas torch to start an FR!!!! Edited February 11, 2020 by RLWP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MoominPapa Posted February 11, 2020 Report Share Posted February 11, 2020 2 hours ago, RLWP said: You need a gas torch to start an FR!!!! Rumbled! That's why I just borrowed one from you. For the record, an engine which runs full-time in high compression, will start electrically first or second push in the coldest of weather without use of external starting aids, even when filled with thicker-than-spec SAE 30 oil. MP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesWoolcock Posted February 12, 2020 Report Share Posted February 12, 2020 10 hours ago, MoominPapa said: Rumbled! That's why I just borrowed one from you. For the record, an engine which runs full-time in high compression, will start electrically first or second push in the coldest of weather without use of external starting aids, even when filled with thicker-than-spec SAE 30 oil. MP. FRs were designed to run on 10, not 30 SAE oil. But this one is a little tired at the bottom end now so I now run it on 20/50 CC and as I've said it is set on low compression all the time. At start up it has 35+ lbs/in and runs happily all day at around 20. Not many FRs do that, James 12 hours ago, RLWP said: You need a gas torch to start an FR!!!! Yep. Read my post Richard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RLWP Posted February 12, 2020 Report Share Posted February 12, 2020 8 hours ago, JamesWoolcock said: Yep. Read my post Richard. Have you considered mending it before it won't start at all? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MoominPapa Posted February 12, 2020 Report Share Posted February 12, 2020 9 hours ago, JamesWoolcock said: FRs were designed to run on 10, not 30 SAE oil. But this one is a little tired at the bottom end now so I now run it on 20/50 CC and as I've said it is set on low compression all the time. I use 30 weight for much the same reason (and to slow some of the chronic oil leaks). If I was regularly hand starting I would use SAE 10. 9 hours ago, JamesWoolcock said: At start up it has 35+ lbs/in and runs happily all day at around 20. Not many FRs do that, This one does. The pressure relief is supposed to open at 30 PSI, so if it goes much higher than that at start up, you may have a problem there. MP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MoominPapa Posted February 12, 2020 Report Share Posted February 12, 2020 On 10/02/2020 at 01:08, JamesWoolcock said: for stopping the engine; the engine control lever on the left hand side and in the pump cover plates should be used. It controls the rack. Forward to stop, back to run. Vertical (I think) for extra fuel but generally not needed The extra fuel arrangement is clever. When you move the stop lever to the stop position it pushes the fuel rack fully closed but it also moves the cam which forms the maximum fuel stop to a second position which admits extra fuel on starting. When the lever is pushed back to the run position with the engine stopped this lets the rack open to this extra fuel position under the influence of the governor springs. Once the engine starts and speeds up on the next start, the governor pulls the fuel rack towards the closed direction which releases the maximum fuel cam to move to the normal position again. I've found that if you're in a hurry and push the stop leaver back to run before the engine has completely stopped moving that can defeat the maximum fuel setting, resulting in difficult starting the next time, so I've developed the habit of moving the lever to stop and then back to run just before starting a cold engine to ensure it's set. MP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesWoolcock Posted February 12, 2020 Report Share Posted February 12, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, RLWP said: Have you considered mending it before it won't start at all? I don't think so. This engine had a complete top end rebuild down to and including the big ends in autumn 2011, including new pistons and liners. I am talking about cold starts in cold weather. This only applies to the first start up of the day. After that a mere touch of the start button and it's away. I've used this procedure for 14 years so I don't expect it not to start at all. It guarantees a quick and easy start up and a cranking battery long life. Edited February 12, 2020 by JamesWoolcock Typo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesWoolcock Posted February 12, 2020 Report Share Posted February 12, 2020 32 minutes ago, MoominPapa said: The extra fuel arrangement is clever. When you move the stop lever to the stop position it pushes the fuel rack fully closed but it also moves the cam which forms the maximum fuel stop to a second position which admits extra fuel on starting. When the lever is pushed back to the run position with the engine stopped this lets the rack open to this extra fuel position under the influence of the governor springs. Once the engine starts and speeds up on the next start, the governor pulls the fuel rack towards the closed direction which releases the maximum fuel cam to move to the normal position again. I've found that if you're in a hurry and push the stop leaver back to run before the engine has completely stopped moving that can defeat the maximum fuel setting, resulting in difficult starting the next time, so I've developed the habit of moving the lever to stop and then back to run just before starting a cold engine to ensure it's set. MP. Agreed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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