Are my Trojans knackered?

[blackrose]

I have 3 x 135a/h Trojans as my domestic bank. They're about 5 years old but haven't really seen much real use as I've mainly been on shore power so they're always properly charged and topped up. I've never been particularly impressed by them, they seemed to lose charge fairly quickly when not being charged and under load. My last set of batteries (Hi-Faze) were brilliant and lasted 10 years.

 

Anyway, I came home on Thursday evening after a few days away for work and decided to run the engine for a bit of quick hot water rather than use the immersion heater. I switched off the charger before starting the engine. I know there's no real need to but it's just a habit. 

 

I was in the boat all day yesterday but the boat's on shore power so the laptop etc isn't running from the batteries. Then this morning I realised I forgot I hadn't switched the charger back on. The inverter hasn't been on (separate charger/inverter) so all I've really been using from the batteries is the water pump and led lights and this morning I saw the domestic bank was at about 10.5v. How can fully charged batteries have run down so quickly? They're back in charge now, but if they weren't knackered before I think they are now. I know 5 years sounds reasonable but I was never very impressed with them compared to the Hi-Faze. 

 

3 minutes ago, blackrose said:

 

 

Edited February 23, 2019 by blackrose

[Alan de Enfield]

My only thought(s) would be 

1) The batteries are crackered (but shouldn't be judging from the life they have had).

2) The immersion was not actually switched off and was being fed by the inverter.

[blackrose]

Thanks. The inverter hasn't been on at all.

[WotEver]

Trojans (well, in fact all Batteries, but it’s very noticeable with Trojans) get lazy when not used for a while. However, dropping to 10.5V (ie flat) overnight is excessive. 

 

Have you kept an eye on electrolyte levels?

 

When they’re fully charged take a hydrometer reading and let us know what it reads. 

[blackrose]

I'm just wondering if there's something wrong with the way the batteries are connected? I had a marine electrician rewire them according to one of Gibbo's "balanced battery" diagrams when I changed the batteries 5 years ago. I spotted one mistake he made afterwards so now I'm wondering if he made others...

2 minutes ago, WotEver said:

Trojans (well, in fact all Batteries, but it’s very noticeable with Trojans) get lazy when not used for a while. However, dropping to 10.5V (ie flat) overnight is excessive. 

 

Have you kept an eye on electrolyte levels?

 

When they’re fully charged take a hydrometer reading and let us know what it reads. 

I haven't topped them up for a few months. I'll have to get hold of a hydrometer today. Smashed the last one by stepping on it!

[WotEver]

5 minutes ago, blackrose said:

Smashed the last one by stepping on it!

That’d do it

 

6 minutes ago, blackrose said:

I'm just wondering if there's something wrong with the way the batteries are connected? 

Always possible I guess. Got any photos? It may well be that they require a bit of exercising. 

[dmr]

You say 3 x 135Ah so I assume these are the 12 volt Trojans, I believe that these are not nearly as good as the 6v types. Check the levels and gravity and report back.

 

What charger do you have?   Does it do a proper float mode and have the ability to occasionally recharge the batteries, ideally to 14.8 volts?

 

..............Dave

[blackrose]

Yes 12v Trojans. I don't think most 12v batteries are as good as 6v equivalents.

 

Sterling 30 amp charger, floats at about 0.6v.

Edited February 23, 2019 by blackrose

[blackrose]

Assuming I need a new set of 12v domestics, what does the panel suggest? I won't be spending good money on Trojans again. Unfortunately Hi-Faze are no longer available. I've got a feeling that at least one of those Trojans may have been faulty to start with. I did some SG readings for each cell when I first bought them and wrote the results on the top of the casing with a sharpie. They were ok, but something isn't right.

Edited February 23, 2019 by blackrose

[alan_fincher]

41 minutes ago, blackrose said:

Sterling 30 amp charger, floats at about 0.6v.

 

Please explain.

[blackrose]

Sorry 0.6a, 13.6v

Edited February 23, 2019 by blackrose

[blackrose]

Just checked the electrolyte levels and they were fine. The wiring looks fine but i might have missed something.

Edited February 23, 2019 by blackrose

[BruceinSanity]

120Ah sealed Albions are £169 apiece from MC before discounts or whatever, fit and forget for three years, claims 400 cycles to 60% discharge. I’ve no doubt Tanya or similar could beat that for an equivalent spec box.

[GUMPY]

Have you just left the batteries on float the whole time or have they been regularly equalised?

I noticed with my Crown batteries they were better if I ran an equalising charge at 15.5 volts but low current every couple of months or so.

https://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/equalizing_charge

 

Leoch Lead/Carbon batteries seem to be getting reasonable press

Mind you not cheap

https://www.alpha-batteries.co.uk/12v-leoch-pure-lead-carbon-plh-c100-deep-cycle-leisure-battery/

Edited February 23, 2019 by Loddon

[blackrose]

They've been charged and discharged fairly regularly, but I doubt they've had more than than 100 cycles. My charger only puts out 14.8v maximum, but I know others with the same charger using Trojans who swear by them.

[bizzard]

3 hours ago, blackrose said:

Yes 12v Trojans. I don't think most 12v batteries are as good as 6v equivalents.

 

Sterling 30 amp charger, floats at about 0.6v.

I agree, I once owned three pre war 6v cars, a 1936 Ford Y model, a 1938 Ford deluxe 10 and a 1939 Standard flying 10 and as far as I can remember I never had to renew a battery on any.    Like most things these days everything has a limited life span,'' built in obsolecsence'', even elastic bands have a deteriant in the mix on purpose so that they perish, rot away quite quickly and snap so you have to keep buying more.

Edited February 23, 2019 by bizzard

[dmr]

6 minutes ago, bizzard said:

I agree, I once owned three pre war 6v cars, a 1936 Ford Y model, a 1938 Ford deluxe 10 and a 1939 Standard flying 10 and as far as I can remember I never had to renew a battery on any.

I expect thats because they had no radio, no electric windows, and the headlights were made of candles.

 

................Dave

[bizzard]

26 minutes ago, dmr said:

I expect thats because they had no radio, no electric windows, and the headlights were made of candles.

 

................Dave

And no starter solenoids, relays and all that stuff. The starters were a big pull knob, that pulled a rod or cable directly to a meaty pull contact switch on the starter motor. The Standard had electric wipers AND an interior lamp. They all had starting handles too.

Edited February 23, 2019 by bizzard

[mrsmelly]

4 hours ago, blackrose said:

Assuming I need a new set of 12v domestics, what does the panel suggest? I won't be spending good money on Trojans again. Unfortunately Hi-Faze are no longer available. I've got a feeling that at least one of those Trojans may have been faulty to start with. I did some SG readings for each cell when I first bought them and wrote the results on the top of the casing with a sharpie. They were ok, but something isn't right.

I think you do well with batteries. I remember when you changed these you had got ten years out of the previous set. As a liveaboard I reckon you must be doing something right anyway. As has been said many times before you can go the 6 volt trojan way and spend half your life worrying about them and messing about topping water up or do as I and many do and fit sealed for life 12 volt jobbies and get on with life. I buy the ones from Brit marine ie Bw chandlers at Sawley. they are less than a hundred quid delivered and last me a minimum of two years even when fully off grid and often nearer three years. The only reason I know they are there is because the lights still work. I may go even cheaper and try some 70 squids jobbies next time as Ive done that in the past with good results.

[blackrose]

Well I thought I had taken care of these Trojans but I finally got around to doing some SG measurements this morning and they appear to be cream-crackered. These measurements were taken immediately after switching the charger off with the batteries "fully charged" according to my Smartgauge and BEP 12v monitor. They've been on charge from shore power/charger all the time and I moved the boat back to my summer mooring yesterday so they were topped up by the alternator and were back on the battery charger overnight.

 

Battery 1: All cells between 1260 - 1300 apart from one cell at 1210.

Battery 2: Same as battery 1. All cells between 1260 - 1300 apart from one cell at 1210. Interestingly the lower reading cell was in the same position on the end next to the negative terminal.

Battery 3: Two cells 1210 (negative battery terminal end), two cells 1260 - 1300 (middle), two cells 1100. 

Edited March 2, 2019 by blackrose

[blackrose]

On 23/02/2019 at 15:07, mrsmelly said:

I think you do well with batteries. I remember when you changed these you had got ten years out of the previous set. As a liveaboard I reckon you must be doing something right anyway. As has been said many times before you can go the 6 volt trojan way and spend half your life worrying about them and messing about topping water up or do as I and many do and fit sealed for life 12 volt jobbies and get on with life. I buy the ones from Brit marine ie Bw chandlers at Sawley. they are less than a hundred quid delivered and last me a minimum of two years even when fully off grid and often nearer three years. The only reason I know they are there is because the lights still work. I may go even cheaper and try some 70 squids jobbies next time as Ive done that in the past with good results.

Thanks. I'm seriously thinking about sealed now. I wonder if these Hancock batteries are any good and if they're really deep cycle? I bought a pair of Hancock start batteries for my BT and they're very good. Apparently they can take a maximum of 14.7v. The BT batteries only get 14.6v because of the voltage drop down the long run from the stern, I think I only ever see a max of 14.75v to my domestics and start batteries, so I perhaps I could just leave the charger & alternator controller settings as they are, or would I be safer to set the dip switches to "sealed", but then I think they'd only be getting 14.4v.  

[Momac]

Consider getting  one of these ..........

https://www.aldi.co.uk/autoxs-car-battery-charger/p/097088252113900?gclid=CjwKCAiA8OjjBRB4EiwAMZe6y5XQe7Xel4rvGiBn1oUN7AXbaG8tpUv4byO2aVi-3iny6XBX3Z7rjBoC-F8QAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds

 

I bought one a few years ago and use it to test the batteries by charging them individually and observing the state of charge and the time taken to get to fully charged.   It  pulse charges and seems to help to revive batteries that seema bit tired.  Not very scientific but it has worked for me.

 

 

[blackrose]

5 minutes ago, MartynG said:

Consider getting  one of these ..........

https://www.aldi.co.uk/autoxs-car-battery-charger/p/097088252113900?gclid=CjwKCAiA8OjjBRB4EiwAMZe6y5XQe7Xel4rvGiBn1oUN7AXbaG8tpUv4byO2aVi-3iny6XBX3Z7rjBoC-F8QAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds

 

I bought one a few years ago and use it to test the batteries by charging them individually and observing the state of charge and the time taken to get to fully charged.   It  pulse charges and seems to help to revive batteries that seema bit tired.  Not very scientific but it has worked for me.

 

 

 

Thanks, but that just looks like a cheapo car charger. I can't see the output but it must be about 4 - 6amp? Surely it's not going to do any better job of charging my batteries than my 30amp 3 stage marine charger? I can always charge the batteries individually with that if I want to but I think I've already determined that at least one is knackered.

[Momac]

17 minutes ago, blackrose said:

 

Thanks, but that just looks like a cheapo car charger. I can't see the output but it must be about 4 - 6amp? Surely it's not going to do any better job of charging my batteries than my 30amp 3 stage marine charger? I can always charge the batteries individually with that if I want to but I think I've already determined that at least one is knackered.

Sorry not to be of any help.

 

I have a 40 amp three stage marine charger fitted on the boat . However it is 2003 vintage and doesn't have  an arrangement like some modern kit that puts the batteries to some exercise every now and then.

It seems to me to be the  the volts and the pulse charging that seems to do the job of waking the battery up . The aldi charger helped me  with that.

 

 

[blackrose]

20 minutes ago, MartynG said:

Sorry not to be of any help.

 

I have a 40 amp three stage marine charger fitted on the boat . However it is 2003 vintage and doesn't have  an arrangement like some modern kit that puts the batteries to some exercise every now and then.

It seems to me to be the  the volts and the pulse charging that seems to do the job of waking the battery up . The aldi charger helped me  with that.

 

 

That's ok - I wasn't really expecting to be able to revive the batteries. I think once cells have died they've died. But what exactly has your 40 amp charger failed to do that the Aldi charger was capable of doing?

 

A proper marine charger puts out something like a 14.8v absorption charge, so unless that little charger is doing some sort of equalisation charge at a higher voltage I don't see what else it can be doing? 

Edited March 2, 2019 by blackrose