My big boat convered to electric drive

[Sea Dog]

19 minutes ago, Dr Bob said:

Too late this evening to work out how much though!

Fair enough!

 

[Dr Bob]

7 minutes ago, Sea Dog said:

Fair enough!

 

Its been a bad day after that game this morning. At least Liverpool won though!

[peterboat]

2 hours ago, Dr Bob said:

....and one way to do that is to focus on C1 chemistry (ie natural gas - methane/methanol) rather than oil based solutions (ie crude oil). BP spent a lot of money developing their C1 chemistry. Not sure where they have got to though in the last 10 years. They had huge sites producing LNG in Trinidad and the China Sea (and also methanol).

The reason for going for C1 chemistry is that for the last 50 years, the oil companies have gone round the world looking for oil. In all cases wherever they looked, gas was present but if no oil was found they just capped the well and moved on. There are thousands of this 'ignored' fields which have lots of valuable natural gas. BP's strategy in 2005 was to change their portfolio from 90% oil and 10% gas to 50/50 by 2020. Fuels from natural gas will be the future whilst we still depend on fossil fuels.

Yes you still make CO2 but you will get more energy out of burning methane (CH4) per te of CO2 made as you react twice as much hydrogen so burning a tonne of methane will release more energy than burning a tonne of diesel. Too late this evening to work out how much though!

So methane is in and Hydrogen is out?

[Sea Dog]

26 minutes ago, peterboat said:

So methane is in and Hydrogen is out?

Except for cows, where its grass in, methane out.

[peterboat]

49 minutes ago, Sea Dog said:

Except for cows, where its grass in, methane out.

Load of them in the field next door farting and burping the stuff up

[Jen-in-Wellies]

On 01/11/2019 at 17:47, ditchcrawler said:

Well they have made a start on the Broads https://www.broads-authority.gov.uk/boating/facilities/electric-boat-charging-points

A possible starting point for building electric charging infrastructure on CaRT waters would be in conjunction with the hire industry. As an example, a hire boat doing the Cheshire ring. This is 97 miles, which is 53.5hrs, or 7.5 days at 7 hours a day. A good trip for a weeks hire. At 1.5l/hr, this is about 80l of diesel, the cost of which is included in the hire of the boat. If a boat is out for say 25 weeks a year on average, then this is 2000l of diesel per boat. a substantial cost. There is also the money tied up in diesel stock, both in the boat tanks and in the storage tank at the hire base. The cost of carrying out engine services every few weeks and disposing of the used oil.

A typical fast (50kW) car charging post can be bought for £23.6k. With installation and running a three phase supply to it, depending on location, then the cost per post is probably going to be somewhere between £50k and £100k. If a boat can go two days between charges, then you could equip the Cheshire ring with perhaps four posts, including the one at the hire base so boats leave with full batts. A boat hire company has a turnover of boats. As older ones are replaced and sold on, a proportion of its new boats could be electric for the Ring. Once the posts are in place, then they are available for private boaters too. A lot of boats are used as weekend pads, with perhaps a short cruise to the pub and back and a longer cruise for a week or two. A small proportion of early adopter private boaters would see advantages in converting, or building electric. Silent boating, green bragging rights, with somewhere to cruise.

 

Using popular hire boat cruising rings could be a way of getting over the chicken and egg problem of nowhere to charge, so people don't make/buy electric boats. It builds a network one ring at a time until a critical mass of boats exist and demand comes for the less popular routes. The busy narrow canal network of the Midlands and Wales would be the ideal place to start this. At the moment, we see a vast network and no way of financing the cost of fitting it for electric boating all in one go. I'd suggest that one go isn't needed. Do routes popular with hire boats first, the Llangollen and various cruising rings, then extend out beyond those and private boaters will see the advantages in building, or converting to electric.

 

Exactly how this would be financed would need to be worked out. The division of capital cost between CaRT, the hire boat companies and government (not the current one!). The price of the electric sold and how this is divided. Some joined up standardisation on charging posts and billing method between the different navigation authorities would be needed so the small schemes build up in to a network usable anywhere.

 

Jen

Edited November 5, 2019 by Jen-in-Wellies

[Stilllearning]

2 hours ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

A possible starting point for building electric charging infrastructure on CaRT waters would be in conjunction with the hire industry. As an example, a hire boat doing the Cheshire ring. This is 97 miles, which is 53.5hrs, or 7.5 days at 7 hours a day. A good trip for a weeks hire. At 1.5l/hr, this is about 80l of diesel, the cost of which is included in the hire of the boat. If a boat is out for say 25 weeks a year on average, then this is 2000l of diesel per boat. a substantial cost. There is also the money tied up in diesel stock, both in the boat tanks and in the storage tank at the hire base. The cost of carrying out engine services every few weeks and disposing of the used oil.

A typical fast (50kW) car charging post can be bought for £23.6k. With installation and running a three phase supply to it, depending on location, then the cost per post is probably going to be somewhere between £50k and £100k. If a boat can go two days between charges, then you could equip the Cheshire ring with perhaps four posts, including the one at the hire base so boats leave with full batts. A boat hire company has a turnover of boats. As older ones are replaced and sold on, a proportion of its new boats could be electric for the Ring. Once the posts are in place, then they are available for private boaters too. A lot of boats are used as weekend pads, with perhaps a short cruise to the pub and back and a longer cruise for a week or two. A small proportion of early adopter private boaters would see advantages in converting, or building electric. Silent boating, green bragging rights, with somewhere to cruise.

 

Using popular hire boat cruising rings could be a way of getting over the chicken and egg problem of nowhere to charge, so people don't make/buy electric boats. It builds a network one ring at a time until a critical mass of boats exist and demand comes for the less popular routes. The busy narrow canal network of the Midlands and Wales would be the ideal place to start this. At the moment, we see a vast network and no way of financing the cost of fitting it for electric boating all in one go. I'd suggest that one go isn't needed. Do routes popular with hire boats first, the Llangollen and various cruising rings, then extend out beyond those and private boaters will see the advantages in building, or converting to electric.

 

Exactly how this would be financed would need to be worked out. The division of capital cost between CaRT, the hire boat companies and government (not the current one!). The price of the electric sold and how this is divided. Some joined up standardisation on charging posts and billing method between the different navigation authorities would be needed so the small schemes build up in to a network usable anywhere.

 

Jen

Eye wateringly expensive set up costs! I knew in a vague sort of way that there are hurdles in the way of having electric boats and cars, and now I know why. 

 

[cuthound]

9 minutes ago, Stilllearning said:

Eye wateringly expensive set up costs! I knew in a vague sort of way that there are hurdles in the way of having electric boats and cars, and now I know why. 

 

 

Yes, unless the government pay for the charging infrastructure I can't see it happening. Not enough boats on the system for it to be viable for a private enterprise, unless they can charge boaters £££'s to recharge.

[Stilllearning]

8 minutes ago, cuthound said:

 

Yes, unless the government pay for the charging infrastructure I can't see it happening. Not enough boats on the system for it to be viable for a private enterprise, unless they can charge boaters £££'s to recharge.

Quite. And where is all the spare electric generating capacity, may one ask?

[Jen-in-Wellies]

5 minutes ago, Stilllearning said:

Eye wateringly expensive set up costs! I knew in a vague sort of way that there are hurdles in the way of having electric boats and cars, and now I know why. 

 

Yes it is. So is any commercial work. Putting in a big diesel storage tank, with bund and HMRC compliant diesel pump will set you back tens of thousands too.

 

Just now, cuthound said:

 

Yes, unless the government pay for the charging infrastructure I can't see it happening. Not enough boats on the system for it to be viable for a private enterprise, unless they can charge boaters £££'s to recharge.

You use the recharging price to pay for them over time. The government paying could be in the form of a loan repayable at the interest rates they can get on government borrowing, rather than commercial loan rates. It doesn't have to be paid for out of a big tea chest full of cash from the government. Lots of ways of doing it.

This or something very like it either happens, or we are bow hauling our boats around in a few decades time when diesel gets banned, or paying tens of thousands for a horse and its upkeep. Or we carry on and the climate changes so much the inland network becomes unusable anyway. Not enough rain, so it is empty, or too much and it is flooded.

What do you suggest?

[peterboat]

6 minutes ago, Stilllearning said:

Quite. And where is all the spare electric generating capacity, may one ask?

Even as we are posting another wind turbine will be coming on line, its constant now with the ending of fracking another stream of energy will be needed, and the quickest and cleanest is turbines wind and water, tide, solar take your pick, it seems like carbon based energy is hitting a brick wall

[Stilllearning]

1 minute ago, peterboat said:

Even as we are posting another wind turbine will be coming on line, its constant now with the ending of fracking another stream of energy will be needed, and the quickest and cleanest is turbines wind and water, tide, solar take your pick, it seems like carbon based energy is hitting a brick wall

I’m sure you are aware of the limitations of the sources you mention.

[Jen-in-Wellies]

I hope to still be boating in two, or three decades time. Crashing in to boats Tim & Pru style. (Not Steve Heywood style!). An electric boat means they won't hear me coming.

 

Jen

[Jen-in-Wellies]

12 minutes ago, Stilllearning said:

I’m sure you are aware of the limitations of the sources you mention.

Have a look at these figures and graphs of real time grid electricity sources in the UK. Non fossil fuel sources today are not far off 50% of the total. Mostly wind and nuclear, with hydro and solar making up the rest. Fossil fuel is almost all gas, with a tiny bit of coal left. This is with a government that has banned new on-shore wind turbines for years and removed the domestic solar grants. The grid conversion to non CO₂ emitting sources is much further on than most people think.

 

Jen

[Stilllearning]

Very interesting. What is the projected demand for electricity in the years to come?

[peterboat]

2 minutes ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

Have a look at these figures and graphs of real time grid electricity sources in the UK. Non fossil fuel sources today are not far off 50% of the total. Mostly wind and nuclear, with hydro and solar making up the rest. Fossil fuel is almost all gas, with a tiny bit of coal left. This is with a government that has banned new on-shore wind turbines for years and removed the domestic solar grants. The grid conversion to non CO₂ emitting sources is much further on than most people think.

 

Jen

Exactly this^^^^^^ the good thing is that a company is taking the government to court to be allowed to put up Wind turbines on land, In lots of ways they are the perfik power plant, my mate has six on his farm at Ulley and they work well only stopping when not needed, how do you turn off coal? you cant well not quickly

2 minutes ago, Stilllearning said:

Very interesting. What is the projected demand for electricity in the years to come?

Ever increasing as gas central heating is to be banned in the UK, so it seems as if the winds of change are blowing ?

[Jen-in-Wellies]

4 minutes ago, Stilllearning said:

Very interesting. What is the projected demand for electricity in the years to come?

Short answer is dunno!

There will be major changes. Electric transport obviously, but also the ban on gas heating in new build homes from 2025. Balance that against upgrading houses with better insulation and solar panels (Labour policy). Beyond my ken.

 

Jenny

[Stilllearning]

1 minute ago, peterboat said:

Exactly this^^^^^^ the good thing is that a company is taking the government to court to be allowed to put up Wind turbines on land, In lots of ways they are the perfik power plant, my mate has six on his farm at Ulley and they work well only stopping when not needed, how do you turn off coal? you cant well not quickly

Or when the wind doesn’t blow?

A game my wife and I play when driving around is to see how many turbines are not turning on a windy day, it’s a surprisingly large number.

A local group near here got hold of a contract that a farmer had for turbines on his land, and two things stood out: firstly, the turbine company expressly forbade the farmer to let anyone see the contract, and secondly, at the end of the turbine’s useful life, cost of removal was down to the landowner.

[Alan de Enfield]

47 minutes ago, cuthound said:

Not enough boats on the system for it to be viable for a private enterprise, unless they can charge boaters £££'s to recharge.

 

37 minutes ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

You use the recharging price to pay for them over time.

As I showed in a previous post, the charging (pricing) of electricity supply (at higher than cost) to recharge electric boats is SPECIFICALLY excluded from the legislation which allows providers of car recharging 'bollards' an on-cost over their costs.

 

 

Maximum Resale Price of Gas and Electricity 
 
Under section 37 of the Gas Act 1986 and section 44 of the Electricity Act 1989, the Gas and Electricity Markets Authority (“the Authority”) may from time to time fix maximum resale prices at which gas and electricity may be resold (“maximum resale prices”).  
 
The Authority hereby makes the following direction, amending the previous direction issued by the Authority on 29 January 2002 which set the maximum resale price of gas and electricity.  
 
1. Subject to paragraph 2, a maximum resale price shall apply where gas or electricity supplied by any authorised supplier is resold by any person for domestic use, or for use in any form of accommodation (including that used for holidays). 
Exclusion  
 
2. This direction does not apply where electricity supplied by an authorised supplier is resold by any person from a charge point for use by an electric motor vehicle.

 

Definitions 
 
10. In this direction 
“authorised supplier” means a person who is authorised by licence or exemption to supply gas or electricity. 

“charge point” means any equipment, apparatus or appliance used for, or for the purpose connected with the supply of electricity solely to provide motive force for an electric motor vehicle. 
“electric motor vehicle” means a motor vehicle that uses electric drive to power or assist in the propulsion of the motor vehicle, other than an electric marine craft. 
“marine craft” includes a vessel, boat, hovercraft or any other description of water craft.  

[peterboat]

2 minutes ago, Stilllearning said:

Or when the wind doesn’t blow?

A game my wife and I play when driving around is to see how many turbines are not turning on a windy day, it’s a surprisingly large number.

A local group near here got hold of a contract that a farmer had for turbines on his land, and two things stood out: firstly, the turbine company expressly forbade the farmer to let anyone see the contract, and secondly, at the end of the turbine’s useful life, cost of removal was down to the landowner.

Most dont spin because the electric isnt needed,  or that is the case on Micks land, also the turbines are the companies problem until they get replaced with even bigger ones

[Jen-in-Wellies]

11 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

As I showed in a previous post, the charging (pricing) of electricity supply (at higher than cost) to recharge electric boats is SPECIFICALLY excluded from the legislation which allows providers of car recharging 'bollards' an on-cost over their costs.

Which will need legislation to be changed. It can be done. Does this law apply to a navigation authority? I've emailed the Broads Authority to ask how much they are charging per unit. Will post here if I get an answer.

Jen

9 minutes ago, peterboat said:

Most dont spin because the electric isnt needed,  or that is the case on Micks land, also the turbines are the companies problem until they get replaced with even bigger ones

The real reason is that wind turbines are actually powered by electricity to make wind happen, not the other way round. It is part of an effort to make weather forecasts more accurate by blowing clouds to where they are needed to match what has been predicted.?

Edited November 5, 2019 by Jen-in-Wellies

[Jen-in-Wellies]

19 minutes ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

Does this law apply to a navigation authority? I've emailed the Broads Authority to ask how much they are charging per unit. Will post here if I get an answer.

Wow, that was fast! An answer from the Broads Authority. They sell £1 cards, which give 6.66kWhr, so one kWhr costs 15p. That is about the typical cost for a domestic supply from the main suppliers, so it looks like the Broads are selling it at cost and not using it to recoup the cost of the bollards.

Jen

Edited November 5, 2019 by Jen-in-Wellies

[Alan de Enfield]

6 minutes ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

Which will need legislation to be changed. It can be done. Does this law apply to a navigation authority? I've emailed the Broads Authority to ask how much they are charging per unit. Will post here if I get an answer.

Jen

It will be interesting to see their response as (generally) a reseller (which we are) must show any of their consumers copies of the invoices / bills from their supplier to prove that they do not charge a premium.

 

I cannot imagine that Parliament would have much interest (for the next few years) in amending a bill which affects so few.

 

Have you read the "Marine 2050" documentation which outlines how they see the 'electrification' of the UK waters ?

 

The government DOES NOT see electricity paying a major part in boat propulsion.

 

By 2025 we expect that:

i. All vessels operating in UK waters are maximising the use of energy efficiency options. All new vessels being ordered for use in UK waters are being designed with zero emission propulsion capability. Zero emission commercial vessels are in operation in UK waters.

ii. The UK is building clean maritime clusters focused on innovation and infrastructure associated with zero emission propulsion technologies, including bunkering of low or zero emission fuel. By 2035 we expect that:

iii. The UK has built a number of clean maritime clusters. These combine infrastructure and innovation for the use of zero emission propulsion technologies. Low or zero emission marine fuel bunkering options are readily available across the UK.

iv. The UK Ship Register is known as a global leader in clean shipping and the UK is home to a world-leading zero emissions maritime sector, with:

a. a strong UK export industry

b. cutting-edge research and development activities

c. the global centre for investment, insurance and legal services related to clean maritime growth.

 

 

●● Under the assumptions made in the
research, ammonia is estimated to be
more cost-effective than methanol or
hydrogen for most ship types. However,
there is substantial uncertainty around
this result, so it is not possible to reach
definitive conclusions on this at present.
In addition, under these assumptions,
generation of hydrogen, methanol and
ammonia is estimated to be more cost effective
using fossil fuels (with carbon
capture and storage) rather than via
electrolysis58.
●● LNG is not estimated to be a substantial
part of the fuel mix in the future (whether
near future, around 2035, or longer-term,
around 2050) under any scenarios that
achieve the reductions in GHGs required
by the IMO GHG Strategy
●● Electricity is estimated to play a much
smaller role than that of alternative fuels,
with electric propulsion take up limited
to vessels that operate short voyages,
such as short ferry crossings. Whilst its
use is expected to be more significant
for the UK domestic fleet than the UK
international fleet, it is still estimated
to remain relatively small under all
scenarios. This conclusion is sensitive,
however, to current cost assumptions,
such as regarding the capital cost of
batteries.
●● Whether or not shipping has access
to biofuels is not estimated to result
in a significant difference in the costs
to business of delivering the reduction
in GHGs required by the IMO GHG
Strategy.

 

There are chapters on the required infrastructure and funding - worth a read.

1 minute ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

Wow, that was fast! An answer from the Broads Authority. They sell £1 cards, which give 6.66kWhr, so one kWhr costs 15p. That is about the typical cost for a domestic supply from the main suppliers, so it looks like the Broads are selling it at cost.

Jen

That is the same price as we were paying BWML.

Our new marina (in Wales) is 18p per Kwh

[cuthound]

1 hour ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

Yes it is. So is any commercial work. Putting in a big diesel storage tank, with bund and HMRC compliant diesel pump will set you back tens of thousands too.

 

You use the recharging price to pay for them over time. The government paying could be in the form of a loan repayable at the interest rates they can get on government borrowing, rather than commercial loan rates. It doesn't have to be paid for out of a big tea chest full of cash from the government. Lots of ways of doing it.

This or something very like it either happens, or we are bow hauling our boats around in a few decades time when diesel gets banned, or paying tens of thousands for a horse and its upkeep. Or we carry on and the climate changes so much the inland network becomes unusable anyway. Not enough rain, so it is empty, or too much and it is flooded.

What do you suggest?

 

I think that most boaters will baulk at the cost of a commercial electric set up, I estimate that suppliers will charge £5k upwards to install a motor and batteries. A few, like Peterboat will DIY, but the net result will be fewer people boating.

 

The government will realise the cost of installing the infrastructure and either allow boaters and other minority hobbyists to use heavily taxed carbon based fuels, or they let everyone DIY and allow the canls to decline into disuse using out the very low demand as their excuse.

[Jen-in-Wellies]

5 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Have you read the "Marine 2050" documentation which outlines how they see the 'electrification' of the UK waters ?

Will take a look. I assume this is mostly about coastal and international marine, rather than inland, which is a rounding error in comparison.

 

3 minutes ago, cuthound said:

 

I think that most boaters will baulk at the cost of a commercial electric set up, I estimate that suppliers will charge £5k upwards to install a motor and batteries. A few, like Peterboat will DIY, but the net result will be fewer people boating.

 

The government will realise the cost of installing the infrastructure and either allow boaters and other minority hobbyists to use heavily taxed carbon based fuels, or they let everyone DIY and allow the canls to decline into disuse using out the very low demand as their excuse.

So any suggestions on how to stop this happening?

Edited November 5, 2019 by Jen-in-Wellies