back boilers

[Ally Charlton]

looked at an awful lot of boats In the last few months. You know what strikes me? How few have back boilers. We are looking for a liveaboard. Our mooring does not have shore power. We both work all day. Everyone I've spoken too says a solid fuel stove (which would seem to be a must for us) is economical to keep going 24/7, but few seem to have radiators/water heating running from this. For our purposes this would seem ideal, but of all the boats we've seem only one had a back boiler, how expensive are they too install? Are they worth it? Any thoughts appreciated.

[Grace and Favour]

I suspect that it's not the cost to install that may be the cause of their rareity, (although there are one or two boaters for whom the slogan "Cheap is good" has become a mantra ( ), but the fact that if one takes an average boat stove (circa 5Kw output) - it's not really sufficiently powerful to heat the boat AND a boiler

 

If you fit an higher output stove, then a back-boiler will be perfectly feasible

[Ex- Member]

As everyone seems to rave at how hot their wood burning stoves are, I would think it madness not to attach some rads and a hot water system to them.

 

MTB would be the best person to answer your question though, I'm sure he;ll offer some advice.

[Mike Jordan]

If there is such a thing as an average in back boilers, its a steel box about the size of a cigar box ( very approximately) at the back of the firebox.

Its possible to heat a circuit of radiators from this either by gravity circulation or using a pump, it makes good sense to me to make full use of the available heat from a solid fuel stove.

The part of your suggestion that worries me is the implication that you will leave the stove to fend for itself all day every day.

Your stove is affected by the direction and strength of the wind which can make the fire burn faster or slower. In theory the modern insulated flues are safer than just a length of steel pipe as used in the past. I may be overcautious, but my preference would certainly be to trust the heating of the boat to a gas boiler when you are not on board and use the solid fuel burner while the boat is occupied. I have used this system in past years using the Alde comfort boiler which used no power to give background warmth and only uses about 2 watts to circulate water to the rads for full heating.

You will hear claims that the boiler uses a lot of gas but I have always found them as efficient as any other boiler.

Just my thoughts, I'm sure you will hear others!

[FadeToScarlet]

I suspect that it's not the cost to install that may be the cause of their rareity, (although there are one or two boaters for whom the slogan "Cheap is good" has become a mantra ( ), but the fact that if one takes an average boat stove (circa 5Kw output) - it's not really sufficiently powerful to heat the boat AND a boiler

 

If you fit an higher output stove, then a back-boiler will be perfectly feasible

A Squirrel (just try and get a Scot to say that!) is about 5kw, but it's perfectly possible to run a back boiler from it.

[bottle]

You will have to charge your batteries and with no shoreline, that will mean running a generator or the engine.

 

Running engine will give hot water (unless air cooled engine).

 

Running a generator of suitable size will run an immersion heater, usually 1Kw on boats.

 

We are CCers, live aboard and have found no reason to fit a back boiler.

 

We do have an Erbaspacher but that has only been used for about 15 (total) hours in the last 4½ years, just to see it is still working or if there is s light chill and it is not worth lighting the stove

[station tug]

one of the biggest issues with boats is that they arnt generally geared up to live on comfortably....if you use a multifuel stove as a primary heat sorce unless your there to tend it its awkward to get it right for the amount of time your away from the boat at work.....there are various options that can be used...ebaspacher (excuse spelling) these use 12v power to run them and are unreliable anything that uses 12v needs to have the power put back into your battery bank....gas heater are generally greedy on gas so your lugging gas cylinders in winter and having as little gas use on the boat is a good idea...we use a reflecks derv stove with a back boiler running a radiator and clarofier for hot water for when we are away for extended peroids, these arnt the best looking piece of kit but no smell,mess myther, when we are at home we also have a squirell multi fuel stove so we have the cosy feel of a wood burner. iv never understood why people put hours on there engines for such trivial tasks as heating water and charging batteries,excluding the hull the engine is the most expensive part of the boat...if your set up properly with solar,you can live a normal life on a boat,ie loads of light,tv on as much as you like laptop two good showers a day etc etc...when you get into inverters, posh control systems and 240v appliances you will be using more power than you need to..we had a set list of things we wanted when we did our boat...decent light...workable kitchen....full size bed...a table to eat at....a hot boat in winter..powerful shower...not having to run the engine to charge or produce hot water...a tug deck so stepping on and off the boat was easy, hatches on rollers so you dont struggle getting in and out of the boat.......a boat should fit in with your life style not you fitting in with the boat.....

[kevinl]

Factor into any offer you make the cost of fitting one. A decent stove like a boatman, (see link) is only £425 for the version with a backboiler, radiators and piping are peanuts, gustimate £600 for all the bits and a couple of days work. A cheaper option is to line the fireplace with thermal breeze blocks let them soak up the heat then they act like a night storage heater when the fire goes out. I wouldn't pass on a good boat over one issue I'd make an offer that reflected what it's worth to me.
K

 

 

http://www.boatmanstove.co.uk/boatman-stove-new-colour-range

[canals are us?]

I find my woodwarm stove most excellent and the back boiler pretty good. It heats 2 rads on gravity or 55 litres of hot water Hot water takes a while to heat from cold 2-3hours. The stove is a 4.5kw model and woodwarm quote the room heat as 3.5kw in output and the boiler 2.3kw. I will be doing a few mods to the plumbing layout and adding a 3rd small rad in my bedroom.

 

I have the rads on gravity circulation and the calorifier circuit pumped. I turn the 2 rads off to heat the water and switch the 240 volt pump on. Once the hot water is hot, I open the radiator lever valves and switch the pump off. If I was CC I would also install a 12 volt pump.

 

I find having the rads spreads the heat out evenly along the boat length as my stove is at the front of my 50ft trad and at the same time may as well use the boiler to heat the water in Winter and save either running the engine when not needed or using an immersion. I'm on shore power at a Marina.

I Installed the stove first and found the heat at the one end of the boat very hot, but installing the boiler and rads distributed it better along the boat length. If I was always cruising and the engine did the hot water I would of found a centrally placed stove more than adequate on my 50ft trad and left the bedroom door open.

 

I certainly have no concerns leaving my stove lit and unattended as it's so controllable like a gas fire and winds have no affect on the burn. It stays in no trouble on a layer of wildfire when I'm away at 10am and come back at 22.30 that day while visiting my Grandparents. Open it up and then add more fuel.

 

It works and suits my lifestyle.

 

James

[Higgs]

I've got a 60' narrowboat. It's fitted with a Squirrel Morso, with backboiler, feeding two rads. The whole run is 40'. The Squirrels can be fitted with a backboiler or bought with boiler. Mine has one, but came with printed plans to locate the positions that holes need to be cut in the rear of the stove. The boilers, I think, are made of stainless steel and cost about £240 to buy from Midland Chandlers.

 

Stoves can easilly be kept in for 24hrs, without attention.

 

Retro fitting a backboiler usually means plumbing that can be a pain to fit through various layouts to the rads, if not fitted as part of an original fitout. There's usually going to be cupboards or such like in the way.

 

The backboiler arrangement I have does not require a pump and is silent. The stove and boiler heats the boat really well. It does take a few hours for the system to heat the boat from a start. Once it's going, it easilly maintains that heating throughtout.

 

If you know someone handy, the cost is the backboiler, radiators and plumbing.

Edited December 22, 2013 by Higgs

[Mac of Cygnet]

A Squirrel (just try and get a Scot to say that!)

 

?????????????????

[Alan Saunders]

... my preference would certainly be to trust the heating of the boat to a gas boiler when you are not on board and use the solid fuel burner while the boat is occupied. I have used this system in past years using the Alde comfort boiler which used no power to give background warmth and only uses about 2 watts to circulate water to the rads for full heating.

You will hear claims that the boiler uses a lot of gas but I have always found them as efficient as any other boiler.

Just my thoughts, I'm sure you will hear others!

I believe my Alde Comfort to be 90% efficient and a gas boiler is more reliable than oil or solid fuel heatng and requires less maintenance.

But, LPG in small cylinders (typically 13Kg on a NB) is very expensive compared to red diesel and solid fuel.

 

OP

In the depth of winter, you could be using 25Kg of fuel per week. Assuming that you are not on moorings with fuel available. If you are iced in or the fuel boat is not due and/or (mostly) does not supply gas how long will your fuel last?

 

Typically,you may have 2 x 13Kg of Propane, 150 - 300 litres of diesel and, maybe, 250 - 500 Kg of coal stored on-board and you can forage for wood locally (if not legally). If you have to drag fuel along the towpath a full 13Kg Propane cylinder weighs ~20Kg.

 

A solid fuel stove is not essential but sometimes it will go out overnight or crack its glass or otherwise fail. A stove kept in overnight will only keep the chill off (maybe the same temperature as your 'fridge) and save you the trouble of lighting it in the morning.

 

Solid fuel stoves owe much of their comfort factor to their radiant heat but it can be unbearably hot within a metre or two and chilly at the other end of the boat; a back-boiler will distribute the heat through the boat and heat water.

 

As said many times on this forum, it is best to have backup systems!

 

I would look for a well-insulated boat with the minimum of single glazing. Large areas of single glass produce cold downdraughts that can only be compensated by, perhaps, a 10C higher air temperature. Retro-fitting stoves and back-boilers is often straightforward; improving insulation, double-glazing etc. is only viable on a 'project' boat.

 

HTH, Alan

Edited December 22, 2013 by Alan Saunders

[smileypete]

I suspect that it's not the cost to install that may be the cause of their rareity, (although there are one or two boaters for whom the slogan "Cheap is good" has become a mantra ( ), but the fact that if one takes an average boat stove (circa 5Kw output) - it's not really sufficiently powerful to heat the boat AND a boiler

Not so if you fit a gravity rad in the saloon next to the stove, you can then choose to have all the heat in the saloon or divert some of it else where.

 

Though a stove with back boiler may be more reluctant to 'tick over' due to the heat losses to the back boiler, maybe someone like 'canals r us' can comment one that one.

 

Running a generator of suitable size will run an immersion heater, usually 1Kw on boats.

 

We are CCers, live aboard and have found no reason to fit a back boiler.

Yeah but IIRC you have a gas free boat with inboard cocooned diesel genny and probably an unlimited budget for diesel, so not quite a typical liveaboard...

 

 

For the OP there can be issues with backboiler heating that isn't installed that well, so I'd consider it a selling point (or buying point more like) but not put huge value on it.

 

If it doesn't rely on a pump, has a decent 'open' header tank, and can be seen running with the stove at full chat without it boiling, then that all helps.

 

For summer time an instant gas water heater is a good way to heat water, they perform better anyway when the incoming water isn't toooo cold.

 

cheers, Pete.

~smpt~

Edited December 22, 2013 by smileypete

[Higgs]

 

In the depth of winter, you could be using 25Kg of fuel per week. Assuming that you are not on moorings with fuel available. If you are iced in or the fuel boat is not due and/or (mostly) does not supply gas how long will your fuel last?

 

A solid fuel stove is not essential but sometimes it will go out overnight or crack its glass or otherwise fail. A stove kept in overnight will only keep the chill off (maybe the same temperature as your 'fridge) and save you the trouble of lighting it in the morning.

 

 

I already use 40 kgs of smokeless a week - £16.40. Not a massive bill. In 12 yrs, with the same Morso, the glass has cracked once. The temperature overnight is comfortable and varies. 15 degrees, no problem. 19 degrees, no problem. Not likely to go out, unless I want it to go out.

 

By planning, you make sure you don't run out of fuel.

 

Maintenance is minimal. Clean chimney, and maybe replace a bit of sealant. Otherwise, relatively problem free. 12 yrs, replaced flue once; glass once; paint every couple of years. Not had to replace any sealant this year.

Edited December 23, 2013 by Higgs

[canals are us?]

Though a stove with back boiler may be more reluctant to 'tick over' due to the heat losses to the back boiler, maybe someone like 'canals r us' can comment one that one.

Never had any problems with keeping the fire going with the cooling affect of the back boiler. I have had 3 boiler stoves, 2 wraparound villagers and my present stove with rear slab boiler. Certainly isn't cool on board of a morning keeping the fire in overnight and I very rarely wear a jumper as I like it warm on board.

 

The other big plus as said is a SFS is very easy to DIY maintain, anyone once shown how to clean the chimney/baffle plate and change the door seals could do it. Whereas a gas/diesel boiler you get someone qualified and so a cost there.

I used to install domestic gas boilers and give me a solid fuel boiler stove any day.

Nothing really to go wrong on a solid fuel system with no fancy electronic circuit boards. Keep the door glass as a spare or get a sheet of steel cut to size. Since owning stoves since 1990 we have only ever broke one pane of glass by a log hitting it while refuelling.

 

James

Edited December 23, 2013 by canals are us?

[bottle]

SNIP>>>>

 

Yeah but IIRC you have a gas free boat with inboard cocooned diesel genny and probably an unlimited budget for diesel, so not quite a typical liveaboard...

 

<<<<SNIP

 

cheers, Pete.

~smpt~

 

Your memory is correct but even , for example a Honda 2Kw, would do.

 

 

I already use 40 kgs of smokeless a week - £16.40. Not a massive bill. In 12 yrs, with the same Morso, the glass has cracked once. The temperature overnight is comfortable and varies. 15 degrees, no problem. 19 degrees, no problem. Not likely to go out, unless I want it to go out.

 

By planning, you make sure you don't run out of fuel.

 

Maintenance is minimal. Clean chimney, and maybe replace a bit of sealant. Otherwise, relatively problem free. 12 yrs, replaced flue once; glass once; paint every couple of years. Not had to replace any sealant this year.

 

Same here but only 4½ years and no cracked glass yet. (fingers crossed)

[Bee]

It is difficult to get heat to go along the boat, it wants to rise, so heating the ends is really only possible with rads. It really is not difficult to get a system to work with or without a pump, being a luddite I would ditch the pump. As for retro fitting, well that could be a difficult job but having lived on for more than 12 winters in the past it would be an absolute essential to have a backboiler.

[bottle]

My boat 60 foot long, normal layout has a MorsØ Squirrel at the front and it runs non stop 24/7 from October to March.

 

Yes it is warmer at the front than the back but that is not a problem as we like a cool bedroom.

 

Temperature in the saloon varies from about 22°c, daytime down to 18°c overnight. different stove settings.

 

Sat in T-shirt, temperature 22°c, stove shut right down, as it has been all day.

 

Use about 50Kg (two bags) a week of Excel, have used others.

[FidoDido]

I have a 70ft boat, with Morso squirrel stove, 5 radiators, and an Alde gas boiler too.

 

What I've found is this: with Phurnacite running full whack in the Morso, it will heat the first 4 radiators to too hot to touch on gravity feed. It doesn't reach the calorifier - this is due to it being on the other side of the boat.

 

If I run the Alde pump only, you can heat the other rad, and eventually the calorifier, but it will take several days to get the clarifier hot.

 

So - run the engine for an hour or two, or run the Alde for an hour to heat the calorifier, then keep the central heating pump on all evening, and you have nice hot water. Leave the Morso banked up during the day whilst at work, and all is warm n cosy when you come back.

 

You can retrofit a Morso with a back boiler and radiators.

 

I would also highly recommend that you have an instant hot-water system too - ideal for summer, when you don't want the Morso on and aren't moving about.

Edited December 23, 2013 by FidoDido

[FadeToScarlet]

?????????????????

I've found that all my Scottish friends find the word problematic- it comes out something like "skwerrl". Something about the S and q sound, I think.

[MtB]

As everyone seems to rave at how hot their wood burning stoves are, I would think it madness not to attach some rads and a hot water system to them.

 

MTB would be the best person to answer your question though, I'm sure he;ll offer some advice.

 

I know very little about solid fuel central heating systems, other than that they are a bundle of trouble compared to gas and oil fired systems. For some reason, people seem think that as coal is the fuel, they must be simple and easy. Same with using two heat sources to supply one heating system. When they work, it's more by luck than good design. And the blindness of the user to the system's shortcomings, often caused by having invested heavily both financially and emotionally in them!

 

My view is that anyone who thinks they are easy doesn't fully understand the complex control and safety issues caused by combining controlled and uncontrolled heat sources in one system.

 

But moving on, a radiator system attached to a Squirrel either doesn't work very well, or it needs a pump. Once you add a pump, you need to maintain a guaranteed electrical supply whenever the Squirrel is alight. If the pump stops the system water may boil and ultimately dry out and crack the back boiler. Bear this in mind when thinking you want one.

 

 

MtB

[smileypete]

 

But moving on, a radiator system attached to a Squirrel either doesn't work very well, or it needs a pump. Once you add a pump, you need to maintain a guaranteed electrical supply whenever the Squirrel is alight. If the pump stops the system water may boil and ultimately dry out and crack the back boiler. Bear this in mind when thinking you want one.

 

A good easy-to-get right system is to combine the best of both and have sufficiently sized gravity heat dump rads near or next to the stove, and more distant rads and/or calorifier on a pumped circuit.

 

The systems that seem to give trouble are fully pumped, or fully gravity with rads that are undersized or a long way away from the stove.

 

For combining heat sources I've done a couple of diagrams showing the basis of a proposed layout, discussed in the following post, let me know what you think if you like :

 

http://www.canalworld.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=62250&page=4#entry1192403

 

cheers, Pete.

~smpt~

Edited December 24, 2013 by smileypete

[Higgs]

 

I know very little about solid fuel central heating systems, other than that they are a bundle of trouble compared to gas and oil fired systems. For some reason, people seem think that as coal is the fuel, they must be simple and easy. Same with using two heat sources to supply one heating system. When they work, it's more by luck than good design. And the blindness of the user to the system's shortcomings, often caused by having invested heavily both financially and emotionally in them!

 

My view is that anyone who thinks they are easy doesn't fully understand the complex control and safety issues caused by combining controlled and uncontrolled heat sources in one system.

 

But moving on, a radiator system attached to a Squirrel either doesn't work very well, or it needs a pump. Once you add a pump, you need to maintain a guaranteed electrical supply whenever the Squirrel is alight. If the pump stops the system water may boil and ultimately dry out and crack the back boiler. Bear this in mind when thinking you want one.

 

 

MtB

 

 

People have been controlling coal fired heating and power systems for centuries. It's easy. You can also use an offset pump that does not restrict the flow if it fails. There's no luck involved with running a solid stove with backboiler.

[MtB]

 

 

People have been controlling coal fired heating and power systems for centuries. It's easy. You can also use an offset pump that does not restrict the flow if it fails. There's no luck involved with running a solid stove with backboiler.

 

That's excellent news, thanks! Seems I've been worrying about nothing.

 

I imagine Ally Charlton will be fully reassured now.

 

 

MtB

 

 

 

 

(Edited to delete an inflammatory comment.)

Edited December 24, 2013 by Mike the Boilerman

[Higgs]

 

That's excellent news, thanks! Seems I've been worrying about nothing.

 

I imagine Ally Charlton will be fully reassured now.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year !

Edited December 25, 2013 by Higgs