Installing gas system

[Hannah and Jay]

I know some people may recommend getting a professional in to fit the gas supply system but we have researched it thoroughly and are planning install a simple system ourselves. In terms of appliances we have a Paloma water heater and an oven and at a later stage may incorporate a gas fidge.

 

Now a friend has recommended that we use 1/2" diameter pipe rather than the usual 3/8" standard copper pipe to ensure enough supply when using say, the oven, the shower and the fridge all at the same time... Is this really necessary or will the 3/8" stuff suffice? We have plenty of 3/8" pipe to do the job from the old fit out of the boat and would ideally like to reuse this to cut down on cost..

 

The other question is the type of fixing points to use when securing the gas pipe to the steel sides of the hull on the deck... Previously it was secured with clips that were screwed right through the hull with two screws per clip. All these have been removed and holes filled when we were working on the hull. I am aware that is is against BBS requirements to use adhesive directly onto gas pipe to secure it (and sounds like a pretty stupid thing to do anyway) but is it ok to adhere the clips for the pipe to the hull with something like sticks like s**t to avoid having to screw through the hull again?

 

Thanks for any advice in advance, I'm sure it will be invaluable as usual!

Cheers

Hannah

[MoominPapa]

We have plenty of 3/8" pipe to do the job from the old fit out of the boat and would ideally like to reuse this to cut down on cost..

I'd think twice, if I were you. Old copper pipe is likely to be work-hardened by bending and vibration and is much more likely to crack when bent again to re-install. It's quite possible that it's not the correct length either and the BSS will NOT let to use a joint just because you need to join two short lengths of pipe. In the same situation I weighted in the old pipe for scrap and bought a new length. I did re-use fittings (with new olives).

 

MP.

[Hannah and Jay]

Thanks MoominPapa (Great name!) That kind of makes sennse. Weigh in and buy new, now to convince the other half of that!

[koukouvagia]

 

The other question is the type of fixing points to use when securing the gas pipe to the steel sides of the hull on the deck... Previously it was secured with clips that were screwed right through the hull with two screws per clip. All these have been removed and holes filled when we were working on the hull. I am aware that is is against BBS requirements to use adhesive directly onto gas pipe to secure it (and sounds like a pretty stupid thing to do anyway) but is it ok to adhere the clips for the pipe to the hull with something like sticks like s**t to avoid having to screw through the hull again?

 

 

 

This pic shows how I dealt with supporting the pipe within the gas locker. I drilled and tapped the locker and screwed at batten to the sides. This then is used as a support for conventional pipe clips. Would it be possible to attach a similar batten to your hull? You would certainly cut down on the number of holes you'd need to make in your hull.

[Ex- Member]

I know some people may recommend getting a professional in to fit the gas supply system but we have researched it thoroughly and are planning install a simple system ourselves. In terms of appliances we have a Paloma water heater and an oven and at a later stage may incorporate a gas fidge.

 

Now a friend has recommended that we use 1/2" diameter pipe rather than the usual 3/8" standard copper pipe to ensure enough supply when using say, the oven, the shower and the fridge all at the same time... Is this really necessary or will the 3/8" stuff suffice? We have plenty of 3/8" pipe to do the job from the old fit out of the boat and would ideally like to reuse this to cut down on cost..

 

The other question is the type of fixing points to use when securing the gas pipe to the steel sides of the hull on the deck... Previously it was secured with clips that were screwed right through the hull with two screws per clip. All these have been removed and holes filled when we were working on the hull. I am aware that is is against BBS requirements to use adhesive directly onto gas pipe to secure it (and sounds like a pretty stupid thing to do anyway) but is it ok to adhere the clips for the pipe to the hull with something like sticks like s**t to avoid having to screw through the hull again?

 

Thanks for any advice in advance, I'm sure it will be invaluable as usual!

Cheers

Hannah

 

 

Hi Hanna

 

We fitted our own, it really isn't that difficult but you do have to be very methodical making sure every joint is sealed properly and pressure test before connecting the gas. There are special sealers you can use on the joints to help ensure a good sound connection.

 

We also knew a corgi fitter who checked our system after we fitted it.

 

I wouldn't use old pipe either, you can use either 8 or 10mm I think we used 10mm which I recall was because we might add other gas appliances. We used P clips to secure pipe that are padded with neoprene, you only need to affix them using one hole and they absorb vibration as well as protect the pipe.

 

P clips http://www.juststainless.co.uk/products/pipe_clips/p_clip.asp

 

koukouvagia's example is spot on exactly as we did. Bubble tester is a must.

 

Where we came up against the hull with no fixing points we just adhered lengths of batten, if it's possible to screw it in places as well as glue it, do so, I've had batten dislodge from steel even using the best glues, so any additional support will give peace of mind. Gluing single clips I wouldn't do.

 

If you have to go through steel bulkheads you must use the proper joint a bulkhead connector, http://etraderzleisure.co.uk/Gas_Accessories/Gas_Compression_Fittings/Gas_Compression_Bulkhead_Connector

 

Through any studding and the pipe needs sleeving. I used off cut 15mm water pipe. Most of our gas pipe runs under the gunwale internally, it has to be visible and inspectable and that applies to the bulkhead fitting. Ours is covered in panelling so the bit where the bulkhead fitting is located is removable. You also need gas cocks within a foot of each appliance for isolation purposes. Check the BSS for these distances though as I'm posting from memory, of course check everything anyway as some rules have changed since we fitted ours.

 

 

[alan_fincher]

Now a friend has recommended that we use 1/2" diameter pipe rather than the usual 3/8" standard copper pipe to ensure enough supply when using say, the oven, the shower and the fridge all at the same time... Is this really necessary or will the 3/8" stuff suffice? We have plenty of 3/8" pipe to do the job from the old fit out of the boat and would ideally like to reuse this to cut down on cost..

If by shower you mean an instantaneous water heater, and you really are feeding that, an oven, hobs, and a gas fridge down a single pipe run, to some extent the length of that pipe run also comes into play.

 

The longer it is, the more likely it is that 1/2" rather than 3/8" is the correct choice. You can't make it too big, so if in doubt I'd go 1/2"

 

I agree with comment about reusing already used pipe - definitely not a good idea, I'd say.

 

We fitted our own, it really isn't that difficult but you do have to be very methodical making sure every joint is sealed properly and pressure test before connecting the gas. There are special sealers you can use on the joints to help ensure a good sound connection.

 

Slightly worrying advice, particularly if you are talking about compression fittings.

 

Calor sites make it clear that compression fittings should not have anything extra, either "GasTite" or similar sealants, or any kind of PTFE tape.

 

People regularly do it, but it goes against Calor advice, (whether you then have the system checked by a qualified engineer, or not!....).

Edited September 4, 2011 by alan_fincher

[Ex- Member]

If by shower you mean an instantaneous water heater, and you really are feeding that, an oven, hobs, and a gas fridge down a single pipe run, to some extent the length of that pipe run also comes into play.

 

The longer it is, the more likely it is that 1/2" rather than 3/8" is the correct choice. You can't make it too big, so if in doubt I'd go 1/2"

 

I agree with comment about reusing already used pipe - definitely not a good idea, I'd say.

 

 

 

Slightly worrying advice, particularly if you are talking about compression fittings.

 

Calor sites make it clear that compression fittings should not have anything extra, either "GasTite" or similar sealants, or any kind of PTFE tape.

 

People regularly do it, but it goes against Calor advice, (whether you then have the system checked by a qualified engineer, or not!....).

 

Damn more money wasted on un-necessary items I suppose our corgi guy didn't know this as it was his advice to use it, can't remember what it was called, Grey Blue in colour, I'm sure it was wiped over the joint after connection though, maybe it was something else, but your right I found the same Calor advice on line.

 

 

 

[Timleech]

Damn more money wasted on un-necessary items I suppose our corgi guy didn't know this as it was his advice to use it, can't remember what it was called, Grey Blue in colour, I'm sure it was wiped over the joint after connection though, maybe it was something else, but your right I found the same Calor advice on line.

 

Are you sure it wasn't a leak testing fluid, rather than a sealant?

 

Tim

[Ex- Member]

Are you sure it wasn't a leak testing fluid, rather than a sealant?

 

Tim

 

Definitely not fluid, in a tube Blue Grey colour like paste, If fact as a type that the term paste seems relevant.

 

 

 

[Batavia]

I wouldn't use old pipe either, you can use either 8 or 10mm I think we used 10mm which I recall was because we might add other gas appliances. We used P clips to secure pipe that are padded with neoprene, you only need to affix them using one hole and they absorb vibration as well as protect the pipe.

 

If you have to go through steel bulkheads you must use the proper joint a bulkhead connector, http://etraderzleisu...khead_Connector

 

Two further observations:

 

(1) The wall thickness of readily-available 8 or 10mm pipe does not meet the BS requirements (by about 0.1 mm). Other wall thicknesses are available, but are difficult to find. It is much easier to stick to imperial fittings.

 

(2) The use of bulkhead fittings are no longer mandatory (unless things have changed yet again). Using a decent cable stuffing gland will not only give a reasonable seal between the two sides of the bulkhead (up to IP68, with the right gland), but also eliminates two otherwise unnecessary joints in the pipe.

 

Chris G

[ChrisPy]

for pipe clips I used standard 15mm plumbing clips with a split rubber pipe sleeve fitted over the gas pipe. Makes a lovely resilient mounting.

[MtB]

Damn more money wasted on un-necessary items I suppose our corgi guy didn't know this as it was his advice to use it, can't remember what it was called, Grey Blue in colour, I'm sure it was wiped over the joint after connection though, maybe it was something else, but your right I found the same Calor advice on line.

 

 

Your 'CORGI' guy clearly wasn't qualified to install (or check) gas in boats then. Recommending sealant on LPG compression fittings on boats is a classic mistake made by Natural Gas bods working out of scope (technical term for gas bods doing work they don't have the ticket for).

 

The poster who mentions using 8mm and 10mm pipe is also working out of scope as metric pipe does not have the wall thickness to meet BS 5482 Part III (boat installations). You MUST use imperial pipe. Only imperial pipe (with one rare exception) has the necessary wall thickness.

 

Last point is there is no good reason NOT to use your existing 3/8" pipe if the lengths are long enough and you have enough of it. Run separate lengths of it to EACH APPLIANCE from a manifold near the regulator and it will be big enough. Running all those appliances on one single, shared 3/8" pipe will definitely lead to a 'FAIL' as the pressure drop with all appliances running together will be too great to meet BS 5482 part III. (BS 5482 Part III is not the same as Boat Safety Scheme. The BSS requirements are different, and slacker, and often confused due to having similar initials).

 

Nothing to do with gas is EVER simple!

Edited September 4, 2011 by Mike the Boilerman

[smileypete]

The poster who mentions using 8mm and 10mm pipe is also working out of scope as metric pipe does not have the wall thickness to meet BS 5482 Part III (boat installations). You MUST use imperial pipe. Only imperial pipe (with one rare exception) has the necessary wall thickness.

What is the required wall thickness for say 8mm and 10mm pipe then?

 

To the OP: a Google on 'copper pipe gas sizing' will get some information to help you, but Mike's good advice on separate pipe runs will save the hassle.

 

cheers,

Pete.

Edited September 4, 2011 by smileypete

[MtB]

What is the required wall thickness for say 8mm and 10mm pipe then?

 

 

A quick read of BS5482 part III reveals the following:

 

"4 Pipework materials

The following materials should be used for installation pipework:

a) seamless copper tube conforming to BS EN 1057"

 

(And a few other irrelevant options.)

 

The wall thickness will be stated in BS EN 1057, and I know metric pipe does not comply (with one rare exception). I don't have a copy of BS EN 1057 to hand though. DOH!

 

See what I mean about nothing ever being simple with gas?!

Edited September 4, 2011 by Mike the Boilerman

[Hannah and Jay]

I wouldn't use old pipe either, you can use either 8 or 10mm I think we used 10mm which I recall was because we might add other gas appliances. We used P clips to secure pipe that are padded with neoprene, you only need to affix them using one hole and they absorb vibration as well as protect the pipe.

 

P clips http://www.juststain...lips/p_clip.asp

 

The P clips look good. Don't think we'll go for a bubble tester though, just a test end point on the system, they're pretty pricey...

 

The longer it is, the more likely it is that 1/2" rather than 3/8" is the correct choice. You can't make it too big, so if in doubt I'd go 1/2"

 

Ok good to know you can't go too big, haven't looked at the prices for 1/2" yet but should only have to buy it once..

Last point is there is no good reason NOT to use your existing 3/8" pipe if the lengths are long enough and you have enough of it. Run separate lengths of it to EACH APPLIANCE from a manifold near the regulator and it will be big enough. Running all those appliances on one single, shared 3/8" pipe will definitely lead to a 'FAIL' as the pressure drop with all appliances running together will be too great to meet BS 5482 part III.

So you think the pipe can be reused? Never seen single runs of pipe for each appliance though, seems a bit extravagant.. Think I'd rather go for the 1/2"

 

As for the gas PTFE, the same friend (non-pro) recommended using it, I certainly won't be using it now and i'll let him know this info too..

 

I wouldn't use old pipe either, you can use either 8 or 10mm I think we used 10mm which I recall was because we might add other gas appliances. We used P clips to secure pipe that are padded with neoprene, you only need to affix them using one hole and they absorb vibration as well as protect the pipe.

 

P clips http://www.juststain...lips/p_clip.asp

 

The P clips look good. Don't think we'll go for a bubble tester though, just a test end point on the system, they're pretty pricey...

 

The longer it is, the more likely it is that 1/2" rather than 3/8" is the correct choice. You can't make it too big, so if in doubt I'd go 1/2"

 

 

Ok good to know you can't go too big, haven't looked at the prices for 1/2" yet but should only have to buy it once..

Last point is there is no good reason NOT to use your existing 3/8" pipe if the lengths are long enough and you have enough of it. Run separate lengths of it to EACH APPLIANCE from a manifold near the regulator and it will be big enough. Running all those appliances on one single, shared 3/8" pipe will definitely lead to a 'FAIL' as the pressure drop with all appliances running together will be too great to meet BS 5482 part III.

So you think the pipe can be reused? Never seen single runs of pipe for each appliance though, seems a bit extravagant.. Think I'd rather go for the 1/2"

 

As for the gas PTFE, the same friend (non-pro) recommended using it, I certainly won't be using it now and i'll let him know this info too..

 

See what happens when I try and multi-quote!!!!

[blackrose]

Last point is there is no good reason NOT to use your existing 3/8" pipe if the lengths are long enough and you have enough of it. Run separate lengths of it to EACH APPLIANCE from a manifold near the regulator and it will be big enough. Running all those appliances on one single, shared 3/8" pipe will definitely lead to a 'FAIL' as the pressure drop with all appliances running together will be too great to meet BS 5482 part III. (BS 5482 Part III is not the same as Boat Safety Scheme. The BSS requirements are different, and slacker, and often confused due to having similar initials).

 

Nothing to do with gas is EVER simple!

 

Running full lengths of pipe for each appliance seems a bit over the top to me. Why not just use 1/2" pipe for the main run and then T off in the appropriate diameter for each appliance? That's what I did and it passed with flying colours.

 

It's quite difficut to give advice on pipe diameters without knowing the kw ratings of each appliance and length of pipe run.

 

Really the OP should refer to the Calor tables. I used to have a link to them somewhere but I can't find it now.

[Bob18]

You can get BS EN 1057 compliant metric pipes:

http://www.cranecopper.com.au/sizes/bsen1057.asp

 

The clue is that BS EN 1057 is the UK version of a Euronorm (EN1057) which is a harmonised standard....

 

The problem is -which table in '1057 are we talking about, there are several? I would assume its table "Y", which defines copper pipes for "Underground works and heavy duty requirements including hot and cold water supply, gas reticulation, sanitary plumbing, heating and general engineering."

 

 

It does NOT directly define any Imperial pipe sizes, but does define "near equivalent" pipe dimensions elsewhere (with options like half inch is a near miss to both 12mm and 15mm - actual metric equivalent would be 12.7mm)

 

 

 

(Strange thing is that the bsp and bsg fittings have been adopted into Euronorms, with no real metric equivalents or alternatives!)

[alan_fincher]

See what happens when I try and multi-quote!!!!

Indeed.....

 

I simply haven't the stamina to try and separate the various incorrectly done quotes from any comment you have added yourself.

 

Just too confusing, I'm afraid.

 

The comment about not using metric pipe is a valid one, despite many having done it, and some of the less well informed chandlers selling only metric, and insisting it is how all boats should be done.

 

As Mike, who does it for a living, has said, it's a mine-field, and unfortunately believe that maybe half of those who give advice on here about "having done their own gas systems, and passed with flying colours" have actually got it completely right.

 

Passing a BSS doesn't prove "correctness". Many BSS examiners are probably not going to pick up on whether joints contain sealant they shouldn't, or whether the wrong types of olive have been put in a compression fitting, (as two examples). How could they ?

[Bob18]

"Imperial pipe sizes are no longer defined within the Euronorm, thus cannot comply with the relevant standards."

 

"Near approximations" are NOT compliant equivalents, so should not be used on "new" installations - thus saith the LPGA, who advise, on behalf of the UK, the Euronorm technical committees who write the standards.

 

Its a real grade one PITA when it comes to working on old systems, where, for some sizes you can "get away with" using the nearest metric equivalent (3/8 is very close to 10mm), nut for others, and half inch is one of the worst its an absolute (rude word) to get it right.

 

I would assume that the real reason for chandlers to say "metric is the way to go" is that Imperial pipe is getting harder to source in small quantities at sensible prices (one source quotes nearly double the price for 3/8 by 0.7mm as it does for 10mm by 0.7mm, yet the Imperial pipe is the smaller o/d one!)

[Teddy Bear]

I have read all these threads with great interest and have started to lose the will to live. I’m unable to find anything on the internet that say you must use imperial pipe, can you even get imperial pipe any more. All bubble testers are in metric only and I would imagine mixing imperial and metric a definite no no, introducing adaptors will only lead to additional joints.

If metric pipe is to BS EN 1057 how can it be incorrect to use. These are just my observations from all the above comments, I'am here to learn as are most of us.

[alan_fincher]

I’m unable to find anything on the internet that say you must use imperial pipe, can you even get imperial pipe any more.

Yes,

 

Fully available. Most good chandlers, or from Internet sources like BES.

 

All bubble testers are in metric only and I would imagine mixing imperial and metric a definite no no, introducing adaptors will only lead to additional joints.

 

Not correct - Southampton Calor will sell you Alde bubble testers with imperial fittings, although they are one of the few places I have seen that does.

 

My boat is all imperial, and has a bubble tester - perfectly possible.

[system 4-50]

Yes,

 

Fully available. Most good chandlers, or from Internet sources like BES.

 

 

 

Not correct - Southampton Calor will sell you Alde bubble testers with imperial fittings, although they are one of the few places I have seen that does.

 

My boat is all imperial, and has a bubble tester - perfectly possible.

Yes, available. I have bought a full set of these quite recently, so recently that they are not yet installed.

Bubble tester a must. Cut corners elsewhere if you must but a bubble tester is just such a good solution to the problem.

Good luck!

[blackrose]

 

As Mike, who does it for a living, has said, it's a mine-field, and unfortunately believe that maybe half of those who give advice on here about "having done their own gas systems, and passed with flying colours" have actually got it completely right.

 

Passing a BSS doesn't prove "correctness". Many BSS examiners are probably not going to pick up on whether joints contain sealant they shouldn't, or whether the wrong types of olive have been put in a compression fitting, (as two examples). How could they ?

 

Having it done professionally doesn't guarantee "correctness" either Alan. I had work done by a professional on my last boat and it wasn't done very well. A BSS inspector isn't always going to pick up on those mistakes either. Personally I'd rather do it myself because I know I'll do it properly, but that doesn't mean I recommend others to do their own installations if they're not competant.

 

I have read all these threads with great interest and have started to lose the will to live. I’m unable to find anything on the internet that say you must use imperial pipe, can you even get imperial pipe any more. All bubble testers are in metric only and I would imagine mixing imperial and metric a definite no no, introducing adaptors will only lead to additional joints.

If metric pipe is to BS EN 1057 how can it be incorrect to use. These are just my observations from all the above comments, I'am here to learn as are most of us.

 

You shouldn't need to use adaptors on a bubble tester, you just put the bubble tester in a vice, crack the fittings off and replace them with imperial ones. However, if you did want to use adaptors, additional joints in the gas locker isn't really an issue.

Edited September 4, 2011 by blackrose

[alan_fincher]

Having it done professionally doesn't guarantee "correctness" either Alan. I had work done by a professional on my last boat and it wasn't done very well. Personally I'd rather do it myself because I know I'll do it properly, but that doesn't mean I recommend others to do their own installations if their not competant.

Agree entirely - I have heard some horror stories, I'll agree.

 

But to me it is obvious that when you see posts from people like "Mike the Boilerman", that their advice is solid. Generally the best of the professionals can back up what they say with the relevant regulations, standards, publications, etc - something I would struggle to do without a lot of research, and then I might still cock up.

 

For example if I trawled enough old posts, I could remind myself why the wall thickness of the generally sold metric pipe doesn't fully meet all the requirements.

 

Yes, I know it's marginal - yes, I know it's not going to kill you, and yes, I know people use it, without problems.

 

But when someone who really knows explains why strictly it should not be used, their arguments are coherent, and I'm happy to follow their good advice.

 

(Then of course we once had "TerryL" - "heating engineer" quite extrordinaire - so you do have a point!

[Bob18]

There is nothing that says you must use Imperial pipes and fitting for new installations.

However the fact that the latest version of '1057 does not define the dimensions for Imperial pipes (which previous versions did) indicates that Imperial pipes are no longer applicable for NEW works, but may be employed for the repair and maintenance of existing works. (Its worth noting that in general extending an existing system to add a new appliance is generally classed under "maintenance" not new works.)

 

So if you've got a gas installation that uses Imperial pipe and fittings and you can get suitable Imperial fittings use them.

But if you are doing a new job (new boat) then your really should be using metric pipes and fittings.