Installing gas system

[alan_fincher]

And to the poster who didn't have patience for my rather incompetant IT skills and instead of offering friendly advice (surely what this forum should be about?) on how to multiquote, was rather rude, may I suggest the sage advice of my old grannie - If you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all!

I thought you would take it as tongue in cheek, as you yourself admitted you had cocked up the quoting.

 

If I had said "nothing at all", I would not have corrected advice you were wrongly given that was quite incorrect - like inserting a sealant into the joints.

 

If you don't want proper, correct, advice, then don't ask. I don't have to tell people when they are being wrongly advised, either, and your response to me strikes me as rude as well, given the other input I have made.

[Dekazer]

I'm with Teddy on this one - this thread has so much information in it it makes me want to give up the ghost!

 

We're in the middle of some work on our boat, and have disconnected the gas cooker. Until today, I was quite happy with the plan of getting a gas engineer down who's been recommended by a pal as being reasonably good. 'Hannah and Jay', I hope you won't mind if I hijack your thread with a couple of supplementary questions of my own

 

1. Can anyone recommend the best way of finding/vetting a boat gas engineer?

 

2. Anyone got any recommendations in the West London/Middlesex/South Hertfordshire area?

 

3. When relocating a cooker (as we have done) is it worth paying a BSS examiner to check the new position before the gas is connected, or should reading BSS Guide Chapters 7 (LPG installations) and 8 http://www.boatsafetyscheme.com/downloads/BSS_Guide_chap7.pdf and 8 (Cooking, heating, refrigerating and lighting appliances) http://www.boatsafetyscheme.com/downloads/BSS_Guide_chap8.pdf be sufficient? (NB Our Safety Certificate is not due for another 2 years, so I was not planning on getting a full inspection at this stage).

 

4. Alternatively, would it be a better idea to take the hit and pay for an inspection after installation to make sure it's up to standard?

 

5. I recently found out that a good local BSS inspector is not currently taking on work, so I may also need a recommendation for someone good in the West London/Middlesex/South Hertfordshire area

 

Muchos gratitude to all, as usual

 

Lucy

[dor]

1. Can anyone recommend the best way of finding/vetting a boat gas engineer

 

The Gassafe site lists all the registered gas installers and whether or not they havce the LPG ticket.

[Bob18]

Going back to Hannah and Jay's recent question:

 

Right - by definition "1/2", "3/8" and the like are "Imperial" dimensions, likewise "4mm, 10mm, 104mm" are "Metric" dimensions.

Thus if you are using a pipe that is described as "1/2in" it is an Imperial pipe, or you use pipe that is described as "8mm" it is a Metric pipe. (I've deliberately chosen pipes of obviously different sizes here)

 

There is a problem, and while it doesn't sound a big one, its a dangerous one. Some Imperial pipes and some Metric fittings nearly fit together properly and the converse, some Metric pipes and some Imperial fittings nearly fit together properly. The key word is "nearly".

 

Ignoring all arguments about what standard applies, and what wall thickness the pipe is, the "nearly" word just is not good enough. You might be lucky using a 1/2 inch fitting on a 12mm pipe and get it to seal, you may be lucky and it won't, but you may be really unlucky and have it appear to seal, only to fall apart... The difference between 1/2in and 12mm is about 5%, which doesn't sound a lot, unless you are trying to stop gas escaping, where the tolerance is a tiny fraction of a percent.

 

Hence my comments (and no doubt a few others) about "use what's there already", and "don't mix the two". So if the boat is fitted with "Imperial", compliant, pipework, then continue to use it, or if its fitted with "Metric" complaint pipework, then use that.

 

Following from Dor's post

A serious question - is there a list of LPG/marine (inland) fitters, as there are some differences in the rules between land based and marine rules?

[Speedwheel]

 

5. I recently found out that a good local BSS inspector is not currently taking on work, so I may also need a recommendation for someone good in the West London/Middlesex/South Hertfordshire area

 

 

Roger Alsop.

[ChrisPy]

useful website:

 

http://www.calormarinegas.co.uk/Installation

 

 

by the way, Socal/Calor has a special offer on 8mm (5/16") bubble testers: usual price £50, on offer for .......................... wait for it ....................... FIFTY POUNDS

Edited September 5, 2011 by ChrisPy

[WotEver]

All bubble testers are in metric only...

So how did I fit one to 3/8 pipe a couple of months ago then?

 

You can get the correct tails for just about any pipe to fit a bubble tester if you go to the right places.

 

By the way, some BSS testers will knock £10 off the test if you have a bubble tester fitted. I know Radiomariner (member here) does.

 

Tony

[MtB]

The Gassafe site lists all the registered gas installers and whether or not they havce the LPG ticket.

 

ARRRRRRGGHHHHHHHHH.........!!! There is not one 'LPG ticket', there are loads. Only one (or perhaps two) qualifies an LPG gas bod to work on boats.

 

Apologies for shouting but boat LPG plumbing is COMPLETELY DIFFERENT from domestic (i.e. house) LPG plumbing, and domestic gas bods whether LPG or not are NOT NECESSARILY QUALIFIED to work on boats. Thie Gas Safe Register ID card lists on the back the categories of LPG they are qualified to fit and if it doesn't say 'Boats', they may not fit gas on boats.

 

Addressing the question of how to vet a LPG bod, I suggest the following:

 

1) Look at their GSR ID card. Look on the back. Does it say they are qualified to install LPG ON BOATS? If yes, move to step two:

 

2) Does this gas bod own his own boat? Yes = book him or her up. No = reject, and keep on looking.

 

Not foolproof and definitive, but loads the dice in your favour I suggest.

 

Mike

[Bob18]

Thanks Mike - that answered my question about "is there a list with boat (I said marine) gassafe fitters"

 

 

Look hard,

 

Look harder

 

Look even harder

[MtB]

Ever feel like your post has been hijacked so people can have a dig at each other??!

 

Thanks for all the USEFUL advice but as for the rows about metric pipe, even what is a pipe, how about starting separate threads for these rather dull arguments!

 

Only dull until you get your installation failed because you thought these dull arguments irrelevant....

 

 

And to the poster who didn't have patience for my rather incompetant IT skills and instead of offering friendly advice (surely what this forum should be about?) on how to multiquote, was rather rude, may I suggest the sage advice of my old grannie - If you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all!

 

If you can't multi-quote it's best not to try. The board for learning about stuff like multi-quoting is the Technical and Account Support board. Ask over there. It's probably been discussed there to death anyway - hope you don't find the detail of how to do it too dull....

 

 

I'd really like to see these Calor tables that have been mentioned, I'll try and google them, to figure out whether 3/8" or 1/2" would be more suited to our purposes (PLease note - I did not even mention the word imperial!!)

 

Here it is from the horse's mouth. A screenprint of the table in BS5482:2005 Part III. Shhhh don't tell anyone I published it....

[the grinch]

2) Does this gas bod own his own boat? Yes = book him or her up. No = reject, and keep on looking.

 

 

Mike

 

what a completely rubbish answer! i have LPG boats and have been gas fitting boats since 1983! i don't currently have a boat! yet i probably have 3 times the experience of those that do. including building gas fired water heaters from component parts! oh and i owned my own boat for many years.

[rjasmith]

what a completely rubbish answer! i have LPG boats and have been gas fitting boats since 1983! i don't currently have a boat! yet i probably have 3 times the experience of those that do. including building gas fired water heaters from component parts! oh and i owned my own boat for many years.

 

Well that was your 1000th post and this is my 500th so maybe we should congratulate each other!

 

I think Mike was trying to give a simple and helpful suggestion that boat owning experience would be a good feature when choosing someone to advise on/get involved in boat gas installation work. (In addition to them having the right Gas Safe ticket, naturally!)

 

I don't think he meant to exclude someone who had considerable past experience of boat owning as you have, perhaps just suggesting that it might be as well to think carefully about someone who had never owned a boat!

 

Richard

[MtB]

what a completely rubbish answer! i have LPG boats and have been gas fitting boats since 1983! i don't currently have a boat! yet i probably have 3 times the experience of those that do. including building gas fired water heaters from component parts! oh and i owned my own boat for many years.

 

 

I know, but it was the best I could come up with in answer to the poster's question. How to select a Gas Safe Registered installer who will do it properly and not screw it up when there is plenty of evidence around of crap installations by Gas Safe bods.

 

I did continue by suggesting this is not foolproof, just loads the dice in the boater's favour. I know there are exceptions (like you!)

 

How would YOU suggest to the poster they go about finding a decent, knowledgeable and competent gas installer then, given that GSR is no guarantee? I put my own idea up and you shot it down. Your turn to suggest something constructive!

 

Mike

[alan_fincher]

How would YOU suggest to the poster they go about finding a decent, knowledgeable and competent gas installer then, given that GSR is no guarantee? I put my own idea up and you shot it down. Your turn to suggest something constructive!

Actually there is a huge dilemma here for a boat owner who does not consider themselves particularly technical, wants gas work done by a professional, and wants it done right.

 

So far as I can see, this thread has had people who claim to understand all the many requirements and standards still disagreeing completely over interpretation.

 

I think I am seeing one camp amongst the professionals arguing that even for a complete new installation imperial is still the way to go, whereas others are saying, (I think, again!), that the standards have been revised to the point where metric is now the correct solution.

 

Both can't be right, so how do I, as a mere mortal, with no easy access to documents costing three figure sums, make an informed decision about who to employ.

 

I at least think I can understand the issues, and can see the possible pitfall of trying to combine parts that "nearly" fit, but maybe not exactly. The average punter looking to find someone is probably more clueless than I am.

[WotEver]

I agree completely with Alan here. The certified folk appear to be saying that you can only use imperial, whereas Bob says that the new regs state metric. So which is it?

 

If the GSR bods don't know, what chance do us mere mortals have?

 

Tony

[the grinch]

the problems are not just on LPG but on NG as well too many 6 week course merchants out there that "have all the gear and no idea" the simple answer is PD5842 gives the definate requirements for pipe as laid out in section 6.2

Mike has already said the dimension above, there is absolutely no reason that metric has to used and many chandlers still stock imperial sized tube and fittings it is all down to the thickness of the tube being used. sadly the DIYer still thinks he can go to B&Q on a sunday for all he wants (their pipe is not suitable as thin wall)

and sorry mike not jumping on you, just pointing out that not all boat owners are competent gas engineers and not all non owners are "not yet competent" gas fitters

the best way is to ask around and see who gets recommended and who doesn't, between us we have conciderable experience, but none of us know everything!

richard that was a strange coincidence! who would have thought 2 people would get 1,000 & 500 simultaneously and both be from the same canal trust!!

[Bob18]

I've just done a search to get an idea of how many potential registered fitters, with "boats" in their scope, there may be in my area.

There's a few, but I'm confused

Those that I've checked (not all of them by any means) have the phrase "Pipework Boats LPG (CORE)" against their entry for "boats". The gassafe website is "less than helpful" in providing a definition or explanation (and am I surprised?)

[smileypete]

Ever feel like your post has been hijacked so people can have a dig at each other??!

 

Thanks for all the USEFUL advice but as for the rows about metric pipe, even what is a pipe, how about starting separate threads for these rather dull arguments!

Don't know if you're still reading, but one other thing well worth considering is to get a few extra soft copper olives and practice a doing compression joints a few times with some short offcuts of pipe.

 

If you look down the inside of the pipe while tightening, it's easier to see/feel how much force to use to get the olive to bite into the pipe a little.

 

cheers,

Pete.

[the grinch]

I've just done a search to get an idea of how many potential registered fitters, with "boats" in their scope, there may be in my area.

There's a few, but I'm confused

Those that I've checked (not all of them by any means) have the phrase "Pipework Boats LPG (CORE)" against their entry for "boats". The gassafe website is "less than helpful" in providing a definition or explanation (and am I surprised?)

 

thats because most of us do both LP and NG and have CCN1 for pipework and CONGLP1 for conversion from NG to LP categories so no need for the LP equivalent of CCN1 but if you only do lp gas then you need core lpg before you do boats.

[Jay and Hannah]

Don't know if you're still reading, but one other thing well worth considering is to get a few extra soft copper olives and practice a doing compression joints a few times with some short offcuts of pipe.

 

If you look down the inside of the pipe while tightening, it's easier to see/feel how much force to use to get the olive to bite into the pipe a little.

 

cheers,

Pete.

 

Yes we are still reading! although this is precisely the reason i prefer Hannah to post than myself!!

I think we thought it was going to be as simple as what size pipe is generally used and safety certified..... PLENTY of head scratching going on this end. Some good advice all the same (i think) but still a degree of unsurity going on!

[smileypete]

Yes we are still reading! although this is precisely the reason i prefer Hannah to post than myself!!

I think we thought it was going to be as simple as what size pipe is generally used and safety certified..... PLENTY of head scratching going on this end. Some good advice all the same (i think) but still a degree of unsurity going on!

OK, what appliances do you have and how far in meters do the pipe runs from the gas regulator need to be? Also what tees and elbows to get round tight bends are needed?

 

If you can post a diagram that would be ideal, someone may then give a recommendation on pipe sizing based on the information given.

 

The guidelines on the web page Chris P posted in post #56 are well worth following, also see the Boat Safety Scheme guide.

 

Getting compression joints right is a must, that use soft copper olives, are leak free (using proper leak testing spray) without needing sealant, and not over or under tightened.

 

The advice on gluing/screwing wooden battens securely to the hull and then fixing the pipe clips to the batten is good.

 

Bubble testers and CO alarms are strongly recommended, an LPG alarm would give some more peace of mind.

 

I'm sure the professionals and competent DIYers can add to the above.

 

cheers,

Pete.

Edited September 6, 2011 by smileypete

[Jay and Hannah]

Well i think we have decided for 1/2 inch pipe. We have the Paloma/cooker/fridge (at a later date) to connect. 3xTee's/ 3x Stopvalves/ 1x Testvalve/ 2x Bulkhead connector (1 coming from the gas locker,the other through the cabin). Haven't measured the meterage as yet.May supply a diagram laters!

[NBMike]

Well i think we have decided for 1/2 inch pipe. We have the Paloma/cooker/fridge (at a later date) to connect. 3xTee's/ 3x Stopvalves/ 1x Testvalve/ 2x Bulkhead connector (1 coming from the gas locker,the other through the cabin). Haven't measured the meterage as yet.May supply a diagram laters!

The only thing I would add is that ½" pipe is difficult to bend by hand to small radius. I managed to find a small imperial bender for a model engineering site, but it took a lot of searching. Also ½" copper saddles are difficult to find. I make my own 'cos I think it looks nicer than electricians galvanised clips or P-clips.

Mike

[larkshall]

Mike obviously knows his stuff here, and perhaps should be persuaded to write a small treatise for the forum members.

 

I have done a large number of gas pipe installations, (oxygen) in hospitals, and the regs there are even worse, but thats another story altogether.

 

I agree with Mike re using separate gas feeds for the load the OP is thinking of using. I have a gas hob, oven, and gas boiler to go onboard, all will be separately fed from a manifold in the gas locker.

[WotEver]

No different to many houses. Our gas fire, gas hob and gas boiler all have their own feeds direct from the meter.

 

Tony