High Speed Rail Link

[Giggetty]

Looking at the published route (HS2 link) I see that there are to be GUC crossings at Paddington, Northolt,Denham, and Bascote.

 

The Oxford Canal is seemingly crossed at Wormleighton. The HS2 may also cross the route of the proposed Litchfield restoration. Has anyone any further information?

Edited December 20, 2010 by Giggetty

[PeterG]

I thought that the route was to be published again some time today with some major revisions.

 

However it does not sort out the real issue of why bother spending the money on it at all?

[CV32]

It just seems a huge waste of money and will further ruin the wonderful countryside - no one benefits between London and Birmingham - the ministers statement of the existing lines being at capacity in 2020 is utter tosh when it is not going to stop in between its start and end point.

[Guest]

Looking at the published route (HS2 link) I see that there are to be GUC crossings at Paddington, Northolt,Denham, and Bascote.

 

The Oxford Canal is seemingly crossed at Wormleighton. The HS2 may also cross the route of the proposed Litchfield restoration. Has anyone any further information?

 

The info is presented in a way that makes it extremely hard to follow, the cynic would say this was deliberate but I would have thought they could have come up with a much better way of presenting the maps - anybody on a dongle I would say forget it the files are too big you'll be there all night just to download one section,

[Mrs Tawny Owl]

The route runs less than 1/2 mile behind our back garden across a field, so we will be able to see and hear it (at least it did in the last version, haven't downloaded this one).

 

We are not particularly in favour of it, but prepared to accept it if we can see there is a good case for the country.

 

We have a local action group against it here as you can imagine, but the problem is we are just not sure if what they are saying is scaremongering, and being overly dramatic, or if it is likely to be the case. They have one member who puts his opinions forward as fact in all the local press, but says so much that is just plain stupid that we are inclined to dismiss it all as rubbish.

 

However, Richard has tried to find out more about what good the railway might bring, and it is difficult to find. He's been to a meeting of the local chamber of commerce, (we are members) and was very disappointed as most of the presentations seemed to come from protest groups, and very little from the business community about the economic advantages.

 

The man from HS2 was apparently rubbish, and would only talk factually about the route etc, not what good it might do, or where it might go in the future.

 

The business case was not discussed or put forward in a convincing way.

 

If it is really that good for the country, and lets face it the same arguments were probably put forward when they were thinking of building the canals, then the first railways, and more recently the motorways, then they really need to sell it a lot better.

 

To make an informed decision you need to have information from both sides of the argument, and the government are just being useless at getting people on side. (Yes I did vote conservative and no I don't regret it)

 

Quote

The info is presented in a way that makes it extremely hard to follow, the cynic would say this was deliberate but I would have thought they could have come up with a much better way of presenting the maps - anybody on a dongle I would say forget it the files are too big you'll be there all night just to download one section,

Quote

 

The maps might be very big and cumbersome to download, but when you have them they do give a huge amount of detailed information, the exact route including heights, cuttings etc so do help with working out the impact it might have.

 

For example the first iteration had the track about 3/4 of a mile behind the house, but 20 in the air to go over an existing railway line, and the second rout is close, but in a cutting to go under the existing line, and that does makes a huge difference, which we wouldn't know without the very detailed maps.

 

Sue

[Guest]

 

Quote

The info is presented in a way that makes it extremely hard to follow, the cynic would say this was deliberate but I would have thought they could have come up with a much better way of presenting the maps - anybody on a dongle I would say forget it the files are too big you'll be there all night just to download one section,

Quote

 

 

I could be wrong Sue but I don't recall having the same issue with the routes for HS1 - I did eventually download it though and noticed how close it passed to Kenilworth and wondered how close it was to your spot...

[NB Alnwick]

It just seems a huge waste of money and will further ruin the wonderful countryside - no one benefits between London and Birmingham - the ministers statement of the existing lines being at capacity in 2020 is utter tosh when it is not going to stop in between its start and end point.

 

The real benefit will be in the improved land route between mainland Europe and the Midlands and most centres north thereof. Such traffic is forecast to increase significantly and the alternative to the HS rail link (that will enable through trains to the Midlands and north from Brussels, Paris and other European cities) is more airports, more flights and more roads.

 

A Eurostar train carrying nearly 800 passengers (the next generation of rolling stock may carry 1,000 passengers) city centre to city centre is far more friendly to the environment than trying to find ways of cramming the same number of people into a super 'Airbus' - with all the attendant new runways and additional air pollution - not to mention the fact that the new airports will be many miles from the cities they serve and will need their own road or rail connections . . .

[Giggetty]

I thought that the route was to be published again some time today with some major revisions.

 

However it does not sort out the real issue of why bother spending the money on it at all?

I'm watching the ministerial statement in the Commons. "The preferred route is that of the March proposal" i.e. that given in the link. It does not include any HS route much further N of Birmingham. It is now to go out to consultation in February.

 

Labour is questioning its affordability in the present financial climate. Phase 1, I think, is £0.75bn (Old Oak access tunnel). They have pointed out to this that Thames Crosslink, West Coast line and new rolling stock programmes have all been curtailed or cut to pay for this.

 

No mention of the effect upon canals,though.

Edited December 20, 2010 by Giggetty

[cotswoldsman]

The real benefit will be in the improved land route between mainland Europe and the Midlands and most centres north thereof. Such traffic is forecast to increase significantly and the alternative to the HS rail link (that will enable through trains to the Midlands and north from Brussels, Paris and other European cities) is more airports, more flights and more roads.

 

A Eurostar train carrying nearly 800 passengers (the next generation of rolling stock may carry 1,000 passengers) city centre to city centre is far more friendly to the environment than trying to find ways of cramming the same number of people into a super 'Airbus' - with all the attendant new runways and additional air pollution - not to mention the fact that the new airports will be many miles from the cities they serve and will need their own road or rail connections . . .

 

I guess that is provided there is no snow!!! Think Eurostar has come to a halt

Graham it is all very well knocking the new runways but think building new rail line causes more disruption that a few runways. Also you are assuming that the people using the service from say the Midlands all live close to Birmingham I think you would have a problem filling these trains with people just living in the cities so road travel train v plane would surely be about the same. Also where do they all park there cars in the city center.

[greywolf]

I do not remember the people of Birmingham being asked if we want to become a Dorma town for London.

[Dominic M]

In principle I think HS rail is a good development. In France the success of the TGV network has seen the internal air flights disappear. The objections are a NIMBY issue. Completely understandable of course. I lived very close to the route where it slices through rural Warwickshire close to Southam. The greatest affliction on that relatively rural area is the M40, a 24/7 racket that should never gave been built. If HS2 does anything to alleviate that, then bring it on. Trains are not silent, but they are a brief intrusion, not a constant one. I believe the line should be built. It will bring undoubted economic benefit to the Midlands, and will be the first stage in a new rail system that will provide high speed links to the North and Scotland.

 

There were huge objections to the Eurostar HS link. It is now a valuable and vital transport connection to Northern Europe. It is struggling right now because of huge demand from people who can't fly there in this cold weather.

[magpie patrick]

I do not remember the people of Birmingham being asked if we want to become a Dorma town for London.

 

It will only be so for the very well heeled.

 

My peak return ticket to London is £155, something that former HQ did not realise until I made them buy me the ticket to get there. As they are still a client they now book meetings 11-3 so I can travel both ways off-peak

 

Cross Rail is the big win, as London seriously gets in the way of reaching the international stations (I'm sorry Londoners, it does!). I can cover the 120 miles Bath to Paddington in an hour and a half, it then takes nearly as long to get to St Pancras, and longer to get to Stratford International.

[cotswoldsman]

In principle I think HS rail is a good development. In France the success of the TGV network has seen the internal air flights disappear. The objections are a NIMBY issue. Completely understandable of course. I lived very close to the route where it slices through rural Warwickshire close to Southam. The greatest affliction on that relatively rural area is the M40, a 24/7 racket that should never gave been built. If HS2 does anything to alleviate that, then bring it on. Trains are not silent, but they are a brief intrusion, not a constant one. I believe the line should be built. It will bring undoubted economic benefit to the Midlands, and will be the first stage in a new rail system that will provide high speed links to the North and Scotland.

 

There were huge objections to the Eurostar HS link. It is now a valuable and vital transport connection to Northern Europe. It is struggling right now because of huge demand from people who can't fly there in this cold weather.

 

I think it makes sense for the type of distances in France and also in France far more freight moves by train once again because of the distance. I know what you mean about the M40 having been stuck at Kings Sutton for a couple of weeks with the M40 on one side and the rail on the other, hardly noticed the rail but the noise from the M40 was 24 hours.

[Dominic M]

It will only be so for the very well heeled.

 

My peak return ticket to London is £155, something that former HQ did not realise until I made them buy me the ticket to get there. As they are still a client they now book meetings 11-3 so I can travel both ways off-peak

 

Cross Rail is the big win, as London seriously gets in the way of reaching the international stations (I'm sorry Londoners, it does!). I can cover the 120 miles Bath to Paddington in an hour and a half, it then takes nearly as long to get to St Pancras, and longer to get to Stratford International.

Pricing is a different issue. In France the average tcket cost is one fifth per kilometre compared to the UK. But the UK can change; that's a political matter. BTW, you can walk from Paddington to St P in 30 mins.

 

And to able to get to London, Britain's most culturally rich conurbation, from Birmingham, the place that gave us, er, Neville Chamberlain, Noddy Holder and the Balti, in less than one hour; cheap at half the price!

 

Only kidding (ducks quickly).

Edited December 20, 2010 by Dominic M

[cotswoldsman]

Pricing is a different issue. In France the average tcket cost is one fifth per kilometre compared to the UK. But the UK can change; that's a political matter. BTW, you can walk from Paddington to St P in 30 mins.

 

 

 

I think that might be because in France the rail is still nationalised and the government puts large investment into rail and subsidises the tickets, unfortunately here the rail was sold off with very little thought to the future. Most of the rail companies are now owned by foreign companies. Ariva is owned by Deutsche Bahn a nationalised German Company and the profits from there UK operation are used to keep fares in Germany low.

 

Edited for spelling once again

Edited December 20, 2010 by cotswoldsman

[RLWP]

<snip>

Ariva is owned by Deutsche Bahn a nationalised German Company and the profits from there UK operation are used to keep fairs in Germany low.

 

 

 

That's hardly fare, is it?

 

Richard

 

DB own EWS, the rail freight company too, and some others

Edited December 20, 2010 by RLWP

[sociable_hermit]

The real benefit will be in the improved land route between mainland Europe and the Midlands and most centres north thereof. Such traffic is forecast to increase significantly and the alternative to the HS rail link (that will enable through trains to the Midlands and north from Brussels, Paris and other European cities) is more airports, more flights and more roads.

 

A Eurostar train carrying nearly 800 passengers (the next generation of rolling stock may carry 1,000 passengers) city centre to city centre is far more friendly to the environment than trying to find ways of cramming the same number of people into a super 'Airbus' - with all the attendant new runways and additional air pollution - not to mention the fact that the new airports will be many miles from the cities they serve and will need their own road or rail connections . . .

I'm sorry, but I simply don't agree. The biggest drain on capacity is having trains on the same line that run at different speeds - freight, stopping passenger, semi-fast and express. They all tend to bunch and when the railway reaches capacity all traffic is forced to travel at the rate of the slowest train. That is where the problems lie.

 

The WCML upgrade has done a good job of separating traffic flows to avoid those problems, but it all falls apart in the congested City areas i.e. London and Birmingham. The ECML is far worse in this respect and is at capacity despite a relatively spartan service north of Peterborough.

 

So, why not concentrate the enormous amounts of money being suggested on improving the City centre junctions and arterial routes and providing decent diversionary routes for freight, such as the old GCR main line? HS2 looks good until you start looking at the other things which could be achieved with the money. It is only being championed by politcians because it is a self-contained sexy project which they can take the credit for (though if it fails it will undoubtedly be Network Rail's fault).

 

I notice the old chestnut about French high speed lines has come up again, too. Yes, the French have a very good high speed network. Unfortunately their local services are utterly abysmal, but you won't hear the British press talking about that.

[cotswoldsman]

 

That's hardly fare, is it?

 

Richard

 

DB own EWS, the rail freight company too, and some others

 

Silly me..........

[carlt]

Birmingham, the place that gave us, er, Neville Chamberlain, Noddy Holder and the Balti, in less than one hour;

I think it took a bit more than an hour, to give us all three.

[Dominic M]

John, that is absolutely right. The French government does heavily subsidise its rail network. And it encourages a lot of freight on to it. They've probably done the maths and worked out the cost savings to their health service by reducing the chance of road casualties, the cost of highway maintenance, the cost of dealing with the environmental consequences of road transport, the indirect consequences and cost to health of increased asthma among the young. The list is considerable.

 

I think it took a bit more than an hour, to give us all three.

Yeah, up cock in the grammar department.

 

I'm sorry, but I simply don't agree. The biggest drain on capacity is having trains on the same line that run at different speeds - freight, stopping passenger, semi-fast and express. They all tend to bunch and when the railway reaches capacity all traffic is forced to travel at the rate of the slowest train. That is where the problems lie.

 

The WCML upgrade has done a good job of separating traffic flows to avoid those problems, but it all falls apart in the congested City areas i.e. London and Birmingham. The ECML is far worse in this respect and is at capacity despite a relatively spartan service north of Peterborough.

 

So, why not concentrate the enormous amounts of money being suggested on improving the City centre junctions and arterial routes and providing decent diversionary routes for freight, such as the old GCR main line? HS2 looks good until you start looking at the other things which could be achieved with the money. It is only being championed by politcians because it is a self-contained sexy project which they can take the credit for (though if it fails it will undoubtedly be Network Rail's fault).

 

I notice the old chestnut about French high speed lines has come up again, too. Yes, the French have a very good high speed network. Unfortunately their local services are utterly abysmal, but you won't hear the British press talking about that.

I simply don't agree with that. You are seeking to patch up an outdated network where a new on needs to be built.

 

My sister has lived in France for 25 years. The local network of railways is extremely good, and as they weren't visited by le bon Docteur Beeching, pretty comprehensive too. Not a vieux marron at all.

[RLWP]

<snip>

 

And to able to get to London, Britain's most culturally rich conurbation, from Birmingham, the place that gave us, er, Neville Chamberlain, Noddy Holder and the Balti, in less than one hour; cheap at half the price!

 

<snip>

 

And ME!

 

Richard

[sociable_hermit]

I simply don't agree with that. You are seeking to patch up an outdated network where a new on needs to be built.

 

My sister has lived in France for 25 years. The local network of railways is extremely good, and as they weren't visited by le bon Docteur Beeching, pretty comprehensive too. Not a vieux marron at all.

No, that's the point, a new one doesn't need to be built. HS2 will benefit relatively few people and cost a lot more than other less-sexy schemes achieving the same thing would do.

 

The main capacity issues occur in city centre bottlenecks, with passenger services, and in the middle of nowhere with freight. So why not build the city centre improvements and more freight routes and do away with the rest of HS2 which doesn't actually achieve much?

 

Railways are only as good as their weakest point. Tackle one or two key areas and the whole network improves, often significantly.

 

The geographic spread of rural lines in France is impressive, yes. But have you looked at their timetables? Many lines have only two or three trains a day with rubbish connections and are effectively useless for the majority of the population. If your Sister's line isn't like that, she's been lucky. Have a look at the specialist press (particularly Modern Railways) for a more balanced and knowledgable view of the situation than that presented by the tabloid press.

[Dominic M]

No, that's the point, a new one doesn't need to be built. HS2 will benefit relatively few people and cost a lot more than other less-sexy schemes achieving the same thing would do.

 

The main capacity issues occur in city centre bottlenecks, with passenger services, and in the middle of nowhere with freight. So why not build the city centre improvements and more freight routes and do away with the rest of HS2 which doesn't actually achieve much?

 

Railways are only as good as their weakest point. Tackle one or two key areas and the whole network improves, often significantly.

 

The geographic spread of rural lines in France is impressive, yes. But have you looked at their timetables? Many lines have only two or three trains a day with rubbish connections and are effectively useless for the majority of the population. If your Sister's line isn't like that, she's been lucky. Have a look at the specialist press (particularly Modern Railways) for a more balanced and knowledgable view of the situation than that presented by the tabloid press.

OK. How, without building new HSR, do you connect, say, Glasgow to London, and beyond to Northern Europe offering travel times that make it more practical than flying or driving?

 

My sister can get from Cassis, with one change of train, to Paris, in less than 4 hours. Over a distance that is greater than London to Glasgow.

Edited December 20, 2010 by Dominic M

[furnessvale]

I thought that the route was to be published again some time today with some major revisions.

 

However it does not sort out the real issue of why bother spending the money on it at all?

 

They managed to install TWO six lane motorways between London and Birmingham so why the problem with a twin track railway? One thing is certain, if they don't build a new railway they will need to build another motorway. As long as it is on exactly the same route as the proposed railway let's see which the protesters prefer.

 

George ex nb Alton retired

[matty40s]

paddington - st pancras - 13 minutes by tube, 15 by bike.

 

The main issue with this very expensive link is that it stops just North of Birmingham, therefore making it no quicker for anyone from the North. The Virgin Pendolino's cannot reach their maximum speeds north of Stafford as the WCML has not been improved sufficiently to allow this.

a far better use of funds would be to improve the WCML to Glasgow and provide benefits to all the users, not just the Brummy-Londoner commuters.