What is it No.1?

[sharpness]

 

I hope I've got this right as it is the first time I've used Photobucket.

 

What is it?

 

I thought that this is a water seperator in the fuel line from tank to engine. Everycouple of months I remove the plug in the bottom of the bowl & drain out water, perhaps a thimbleful, perhaps an eggcupful depending on how much weve used the boat.

I was recently reading another, old thread that suggested that there is/may be a replacable filter element in the body and now I'm puzzled whether I should be doing more to this bit.

I've not had any fuel problems in just over 1000 hours running & there is a replacable fuel filter, cartridge type which has been changed at the proper intervals on the Beta engine.

Shall I just leave well alone or should I be changing something else as well?

 

Thanks

 

Steve

[Liam]

If you undo the bolt thats in the middle at the top, you'll notice it comes in half. The bottom ally bit comes apart from the white bit. Make sure you have a bowl under it when you do this to catch any spillages.

 

You'll need to get a replacement, this is the white part with the numbers on. Once you have got it, make sure you've fitted the replacement O rings, and have removed the old ones before tightening up the bolt in the top, which runs nearly all the way through the whole thing.

 

You'll need to fill the filter up with diesel before trying to bleed it.

[alan_fincher]

The bit you should be replacing looks like.....

 

eBay link

[John C]

Is that a plastic drain plug? Just thinking of the resistance to fire.

 

John

[Hairy-Neil]

This is a combined filter and water trap.

 

Is the other filter on the engine itself? If so it's best to service the one pictured above at the regular intervals and leave the other one put. Keep on draining the water off as previous.

[carlt]

When are you going to post the "What is it No.2" thread?

[churchward]

When are you going to post the "What is it No.2" thread?

Easy Tiger, these things need to be rationed!

[ditchcrawler]

 

I hope I've got this right as it is the first time I've used Photobucket.

 

What is it?

 

I thought that this is a water seperator in the fuel line from tank to engine. Everycouple of months I remove the plug in the bottom of the bowl & drain out water, perhaps a thimbleful, perhaps an eggcupful depending on how much weve used the boat.

I was recently reading another, old thread that suggested that there is/may be a replacable filter element in the body and now I'm puzzled whether I should be doing more to this bit.

I've not had any fuel problems in just over 1000 hours running & there is a replacable fuel filter, cartridge type which has been changed at the proper intervals on the Beta engine.

Shall I just leave well alone or should I be changing something else as well?

 

Thanks

 

Steve

I have one of these and suggest you get a genuine Delphi unit as the equivalent from my local motor factor is completely different

 

 

edit to make the photo work

Edited January 26, 2010 by ditchcrawler

[Tony Brooks]

I have one of these and suggest you get a genuine Delphi unit as the equivalent from my local motor factor is completely different

 

 

edit to make the photo work

 

 

The Lucas/Delphi/CAV one is known as a pocket filter and it has a greater dirt capacity and in my view less risk of allowing water that has been agglomerated to pass on through the system - although in this incarnation it would not matter because the engine filter should trap it.

 

The other one is a pleated filter and I suspect that either patents or cost of manufacture ensure its continued use.

 

As the primary filter I would always advise using a pocket filter because of its dirt capacity but I am assured by the technical people from the group that make Crossland filters are adamant that there is no danger of water passing on.

 

Mann & Hummel plus another rarer make produce the CAV 296 element as pocket filters as well as Delphi/Lucas/CAV.

[Tony Brooks]

snip name & image

 

What is it?

 

I thought that this is a water seperator in the fuel line from tank to engine. Everycouple of months I remove the plug in the bottom of the bowl & drain out water, perhaps a thimbleful, perhaps an eggcupful depending on how much weve used the boat.

I was recently reading another, old thread that suggested that there is/may be a replacable filter element in the body and now I'm puzzled whether I should be doing more to this bit.

I've not had any fuel problems in just over 1000 hours running & there is a replacable fuel filter, cartridge type which has been changed at the proper intervals on the Beta engine.

Shall I just leave well alone or should I be changing something else as well?

 

Thanks

 

Steve

 

 

It's a form of water separator known as an agglomerator. There is another form of water trap called a sedimentor. The Lucas/CAV/Delphi version is very similar except instead of the filter it has an inverted cone.

 

In an ideal world there would be a sedimentor fitted just before the agglomerator to trap most of the water and the larger particles of dirt. They do it by centrifuging the fuel and throwing the heavier particles to the outside, however they allow about 20% of any water to pass in finely divided droplets. That is where the agglomerator comes in. The gap around the inverted cone is extremely large in fuel terms so it is difficult to block a sedimentor hence my preference to fit one first.

 

The engine filter is also an agglomerator so in theory you do not need another one BUT any water removed form the fuel is trapped in the bottom of the unit and there is nothing but gravity stopping the water from finding its way to the clean fuel exit. If you rely upon an engine mounted agglomerator there is a possibility (not certainty) the engine jumping about on its mounts could shake the trapped water about enough to break it up into small droplets again so I would rather try to trap it before it gets to the engine.

 

If you buy expensive I think you can get a sedimentor and agglomerator combined into one unit (possibly Racor).

 

I do not understand why builders fit agglomerators there rather than a sedimentor but anything is better than nothing and apart from the possibility of blocking it actually does a better job then a sedmentor on its own.

 

Eddited to add:-

 

I would advise you change the filter when you do the engine filter because its the first one that will trap most dirt.

Edited January 26, 2010 by Tony Brooks

[Mac of Cygnet]

Here are the two types side by side with prices. One is SEVEN TIMES the price of the other! Inline Filters

 

The more expensive one is described as 'rolled paper'. Is this the same as 'pocket' and is it really seven times better? i.e. can the filter be left on for seven times as long?

 

Mac

[Tony Brooks]

Here are the two types side by side with prices. One is SEVEN TIMES the price of the other! Inline Filters

 

The more expensive one is described as 'rolled paper'. Is this the same as 'pocket' and is it really seven times better? i.e. can the filter be left on for seven times as long?

 

Mac

 

 

Probably its the same. Pocket filters do look like a Swiss Roll.

 

Now there is no way I would pay more than about £4 for a 296 type pocket filter and I would probably pay less but I use Mann & Hummel based on the premise that the Germans are less likely to cock up than the Yanks - probably wrongly

 

I notice that ASAP Supplies are listing Champion versions of that CAV/Delphi filter and the picture shows a pocket filter at £2.96 which is much what I would expect to pay for one from a motor factors.

 

Thornycroft list a pack of 10 for £18 so I would suggest that the supplier on the link is pushing his luck.

 

Personally even if it was £7 I would buy it because its only once a year and a breakdown could cost a lot more in either money or loss of fun.

 

And no they are not seven times better but I can not find my reference book at the Moment so I can not tell you how much better they are.

[churchward]

The Lucas/Delphi/CAV one is known as a pocket filter and it has a greater dirt capacity and in my view less risk of allowing water that has been agglomerated to pass on through the system - although in this incarnation it would not matter because the engine filter should trap it.

 

The other one is a pleated filter and I suspect that either patents or cost of manufacture ensure its continued use.

 

As the primary filter I would always advise using a pocket filter because of its dirt capacity but I am assured by the technical people from the group that make Crossland filters are adamant that there is no danger of water passing on.

 

Mann & Hummel plus another rarer make produce the CAV 296 element as pocket filters as well as Delphi/Lucas/CAV.

You can get a Champion pocket filter cartridge just like the Delphi one. I think it is Champion L131

[nb Innisfree]

It's a form of water separator known as an agglomerator. There is another form of water trap called a sedimentor. The Lucas/CAV/Delphi version is very similar except instead of the filter it has an inverted cone.

 

In an ideal world there would be a sedimentor fitted just before the agglomerator to trap most of the water and the larger particles of dirt. They do it by centrifuging the fuel and throwing the heavier particles to the outside, however they allow about 20% of any water to pass in finely divided droplets. That is where the agglomerator comes in. The gap around the inverted cone is extremely large in fuel terms so it is difficult to block a sedimentor hence my preference to fit one first.

 

The engine filter is also an agglomerator so in theory you do not need another one BUT any water removed form the fuel is trapped in the bottom of the unit and there is nothing but gravity stopping the water from finding its way to the clean fuel exit. If you rely upon an engine mounted agglomerator there is a possibility (not certainty) the engine jumping about on its mounts could shake the trapped water about enough to break it up into small droplets again so I would rather try to trap it before it gets to the engine.

 

If you buy expensive I think you can get a sedimentor and agglomerator combined into one unit (possibly Racor).

 

I do not understand why builders fit agglomerators there rather than a sedimentor but anything is better than nothing and apart from the possibility of blocking it actually does a better job then a sedmentor on its own.

 

Eddited to add:-

 

I would advise you change the filter when you do the engine filter because its the first one that will trap most dirt.

 

Doesn't adding fuel treatments such as Fortron make agglomerators redundant by passing water harmlessly into the combustion chambers?

[alan_fincher]

Here are the two types side by side with prices. One is SEVEN TIMES the price of the other! Inline Filters

 

The more expensive one is described as 'rolled paper'. Is this the same as 'pocket' and is it really seven times better? i.e. can the filter be left on for seven times as long?

 

Mac

The "expensive one" is surely the same as the £2.35 one I posted from e-Bay ?

 

I didn't even try to find cheapest.

 

OK at bit of postage to add, but presumably you could buy several, (and maybe some for the engine), and save postage costs, and be ready for next few changes ?

[churchward]

The "expensive one" is surely the same as the £2.35 one I posted from e-Bay ?

 

I didn't even try to find cheapest.

 

OK at bit of postage to add, but presumably you could buy several, (and maybe some for the engine), and save postage costs, and be ready for next few changes ?

Yup. There is no reason to be paying more than £2-£3 per filter with these things.

 

I think it may be more to do with In-line's pricing policy and making the Baldwin unit (£1.24 plus vat) a good buy. Nothing wrong with the Baldwin filters either I have used them many times over the years and they are very good.

 

It does make sense to buy 6 or a dozen at once from In-line as they add on a fiver or so postage whether you buy 1 or a dozen.

Edited January 26, 2010 by churchward

[casper ghost]

I'd like to fit one of these filters and water traps in my fuel line. What sort should I get, any ideas on price?

[churchward]

I'd like to fit one of these filters and water traps in my fuel line. What sort should I get, any ideas on price?

I think you will get them for around £50 from chandlers. You may be able to get cheaper elsewhere. However, you must (for BSS reasons) get a unit which is all metal including the water trap bowl underneath and the drain tap. There are ones about that use plastic or glass bowls and plastic drain taps these are no good for passing the BSS on a boat.

 

The Lucas/Delphi/CAV one is known as a pocket filter and it has a greater dirt capacity and in my view less risk of allowing water that has been agglomerated to pass on through the system - although in this incarnation it would not matter because the engine filter should trap it.

 

The other one is a pleated filter and I suspect that either patents or cost of manufacture ensure its continued use.

 

As the primary filter I would always advise using a pocket filter because of its dirt capacity but I am assured by the technical people from the group that make Crossland filters are adamant that there is no danger of water passing on.

 

Mann & Hummel plus another rarer make produce the CAV 296 element as pocket filters as well as Delphi/Lucas/CAV.

Another oddity possibly of the FRAM and coopers pleated filter cartridge as shown in Ditchcrawlers pic on the right is that according to a friend who has a Landrover running on bio diesel. The Bio diesel attacks the resin/glue the use in the construction of the filter (rendering it ineffective) but the Delphi/Lucas/Cav pocket type is constructed in a different way and is OK with Bio. Probably not an issue on narrowboats as there won't be many/any that run on anything like pure BIO diesel.

 

Doesn't adding fuel treatments such as Fortron make agglomerators redundant by passing water harmlessly into the combustion chambers?

No these additives are not 100% effective.

[Tony Brooks]

Doesn't adding fuel treatments such as Fortron make agglomerators redundant by passing water harmlessly into the combustion chambers?

 

 

Probably yes if you are just worried about "normal" build up but what about a failed rudder tube or hull weld, someone mistaking the water filler (yes, I know they are marked), deliberate sabotage from either water or um urine, the filler being left off for a long period during rain (I actually had an example of this on a boat that was being painted) or leaking upper rudder bearing securing screws. In fact anything you can think of that puts a comparatively large amount of water in the tank in a short time.

 

Unless you clean the tank to start with I suspect most fuel treatments will take several months to remove all the water and in the meantime a bit of rough water or bumping might stir it up enough to get into the system.

 

Its just another insurance. In fact I think the sedimentor and agglomerator are the important parts and the additive is the insurance.

[ditchcrawler]

I'd like to fit one of these filters and water traps in my fuel line. What sort should I get, any ideas on price?

 

ASAP Supplies do one for £35-50 + VAT and P&P

 

http://www.asap-supplies.com/toc.php?manage=3&group=CAV TYPE FILTERS&sub_group=CAV_Type_Filters&toc=disp&asap=2efc8332325846cf3acf6114a52b5f9d

[casper ghost]

ASAP Supplies do one for £35-50 + VAT and P&P

 

Hello.

 

I've found one, item number 302006 at ASAP Supplies, looks about right, though I'm certainly no expert. My Ruston has a filter but it's not very easy..

 

Gary

[sharpness]

Is that a plastic drain plug? Just thinking of the resistance to fire.

 

John

 

Thanks for the thought but no, definitely a metal plug, it was supplied by the builders with a plastic plug but I changed it before the first BSS examination.

 

Steve

 

When are you going to post the "What is it No.2" thread?

Dont get too excited, it'll be along later. Its not that exciting anyway.

 

Steve

[sharpness]

Thanks for all the very helpful information and advice.

I now understand what it is & what to do with it. In view of the minimal cost its not worth the aggravation or " loss of fun" so I'll get a couple of replacement filters and change it with the engine one. I wouldnt want the filter blocking when we venture out on the Severn, it can be choppy!, though I suppose the boat rocking on a mooring might have the same effect!!

 

Thanks again

 

Steve

 

Edited to add that Thorneycroft engines, the link that Alan added in post No 3 do 10 of these for £18-00 + £9 p&p or 1 for

£2-35 plus £1-75 p&p.

 

Edited again to add - and blooming quick too, ordered 10-00pm Tuesday evening, received Thursday morning, 3 for £10-30 including P&P, I'm happy with that.

Edited January 28, 2010 by sharpness

[Pengalanty]

I have one of these and suggest you get a genuine Delphi unit as the equivalent from my local motor factor is completely different

 

 

edit to make the photo work

 

I looked at the filter photos. I have a combination "Primary" filter of this type. This is the one I have to change regularly. It keeps my Beta 1903 (Greenline 43) diesel filter very clean.

For anyone interested, I purchase the Mann filter No: P917x from AllParts Hemel (Car Autoparts) and it costs me less than £2.00 for this cheap filter. It has similar holes in it to the Delphi one.

I changed the plastic drain plug in the unit for a metal one. The replacement only costs a few pence.

 

Water/Diesel Combination unit - Mann P917x

 

If anyone has a Beta 43 Greenline (1903) the diesel filter, (On the engine has a Cooper equivalent and is much cheaper than buying from Beta Marine or the chandlers. The number is: Cooper Z532A