A CC question with a difference

[KenK]

A gentleman called Ralph Freeman posted on NBW a question which is a little different from the normal CC type.

Ralf moors for the winter in a marina and he pays for the time he spends there, before he leaves to spend the rest of the year cruising he arranges his winter mooring for the next year in the same marina, as an addition to the winter mooring he can, if he wishes or needs to, return to the marina at any time and pay on an ad hoc basis.

 

He believes he can declare that he has a home mooring, he also thinks that C&RT believe he is a CC’er.

 

As it happens he moors in the same marina I use and from what I have observed of his boating practice he seems to move every few days and keeps a log book so is obeying the CC guidelines, but does he need to?

 

In my opinion he does have a home mooring even if he only pays for it when he actually uses it, has he managed to have his cake and eat it?

 

Ken

[Guest]

I would say if he is not paying for a mooring when he is not cruising then he does not have a home mooring.

 

But the definitions page on the CRT site seems to have fallen over at the moment so can't confirm this.

[jenlyn]

A gentleman called Ralph Freeman posted on NBW a question which is a little different from the normal CC type.

Ralf moors for the winter in a marina and he pays for the time he spends there, before he leaves to spend the rest of the year cruising he arranges his winter mooring for the next year in the same marina, as an addition to the winter mooring he can, if he wishes or needs to, return to the marina at any time and pay on an ad hoc basis.

 

He believes he can declare that he has a home mooring, he also thinks that C&RT believe he is a CC’er.

 

As it happens he moors in the same marina I use and from what I have observed of his boating practice he seems to move every few days and keeps a log book so is obeying the CC guidelines, but does he need to?

 

In my opinion he does have a home mooring even if he only pays for it when he actually uses it, has he managed to have his cake and eat it?

 

Ken

I do similar, but I declare cc. There are actually quite a few that do this.

[mayalld]

A gentleman called Ralph Freeman posted on NBW a question which is a little different from the normal CC type.

Ralf moors for the winter in a marina and he pays for the time he spends there, before he leaves to spend the rest of the year cruising he arranges his winter mooring for the next year in the same marina, as an addition to the winter mooring he can, if he wishes or needs to, return to the marina at any time and pay on an ad hoc basis.

 

He believes he can declare that he has a home mooring, he also thinks that C&RT believe he is a CC'er.

 

As it happens he moors in the same marina I use and from what I have observed of his boating practice he seems to move every few days and keeps a log book so is obeying the CC guidelines, but does he need to?

 

In my opinion he does have a home mooring even if he only pays for it when he actually uses it, has he managed to have his cake and eat it?

 

Ken

 

It is an interesting twist, but I think that the answer to the question "does he have a home mooring" is actually "no", on the basis that the mooring will not always be available to him (it is unlikely that the marina will keep a mooring free for him all year round), and that as such if he declared it as his home mooring, CRT would suddenly find that there were more boats claiming that marina as a mooring than space in the marina.

 

It would be a paper mooring.

[carlt]

In my opinion he does have a home mooring even if he only pays for it when he actually uses it, has he managed to have his cake and eat it?

 

I suspect the ability to ring a marina and take a berth does not constitute having a home mooring otherwise we've all got one.

[Chris Pink]

A gentleman called Ralph Freeman posted on NBW a question which is a little different from the normal CC type.

Ralf moors for the winter in a marina and he pays for the time he spends there, before he leaves to spend the rest of the year cruising he arranges his winter mooring for the next year in the same marina, as an addition to the winter mooring he can, if he wishes or needs to, return to the marina at any time and pay on an ad hoc basis.

 

He believes he can declare that he has a home mooring, he also thinks that C&RT believe he is a CC’er.

 

As it happens he moors in the same marina I use and from what I have observed of his boating practice he seems to move every few days and keeps a log book so is obeying the CC guidelines, but does he need to?

 

In my opinion he does have a home mooring even if he only pays for it when he actually uses it, has he managed to have his cake and eat it?

 

Ken

 

All that really shows is that the concept of 'continuous cruising' is fundamentally flawed (as well as being a semantic oxymoron). If you, or Mr Freeman or even, god forbid, CRT go and read Section 17 iii (c ) of the 1995 Waterways Act you will see that his cruising pattern is exactly in accordance with that law.

Edited March 12, 2013 by Chris Pink

[matty40s]

CaRT think he is a CC'er as he has signed a declaration when purchasing his licence that states this. No one at CaRT signed this, he did.

He effectively has a winter mooring and CC's the rest of the year. I can use a mooring in say, Barby Moorings, every week of the year if I wish, this does not mean I have a mooring there as I have declared CC.

 

I guess this is the chap who also posted the article about CaRT trying to get the marina owner to give them his moorings patterns and status.

[Higgs]

I think - If he has a mooring on an occasion and wishes CRT to accept he has a home mooring, he should probably accept that CRT can hold a contrary view with equal justification. CRT, being the controlling authority, I would say, has the weight.

 

If the chap would like to inform CRT every time he wishes to change his mind, I'm sure the problem would be sorted.

Edited March 12, 2013 by Higgs

[Paul C]

The answer is 5/12.

 

(As in, the unusual agreement he has with the marina is, he is allowed approximately 5 months in every year of moorings - any more than this and he has to pay further, on a pro rata basis).

[KenK]

All that really shows is that the concept of 'continuous cruising' is fundamentally flawed (as well as being a semantic oxymoron). If you, or Mr Freeman or even, god forbid, CRT go and read Section 17 iii (c ) of the 1995 Waterways Act you will see that his cruising pattern is exactly in accordance with that law.

 

Yes Chris I did, hence why I believe he can declare a home mooring.

 

Ken

[matty40s]

Yes Chris I did, hence why I believe he can declare a home mooring.

 

Ken

so why does he continue to sign the declaration every licence renewal then??

[KenK]

CaRT think he is a CC'er as he has signed a declaration when purchasing his licence that states this. No one at CaRT signed this, he did.

He effectively has a winter mooring and CC's the rest of the year. I can use a mooring in say, Barby Moorings, every week of the year if I wish, this does not mean I have a mooring there as I have declared CC.

 

I guess this is the chap who also posted the article about CaRT trying to get the marina owner to give them his moorings patterns and status.

 

As far as I understand it he declared that he did have a home mooring.

 

Yes, C&RT did question the marina. His arguement is that as long as the marina are happy with the arangement it is no business of C&RT's.

 

Ken

[Guest]

As far as I understand it he declared that he did have a home mooring.

 

Yes, C&RT did question the marina. His arguement is that as long as the marina are happy with the arangement it is no business of C&RT's.

 

Ken

 

The marina is not the licencing authority though, so his argument is flawed if he ever has to rely on that as a valid reason. It is very much CRT's business.

[Chris Pink]

Exactly, if the marina say "you can leave your boat here when you are not cruising" that is exactly what is required by the Act.

 

If they wish to hold out and say "what if the marina if full?" then it would have to be shown that it was likely, when Mr Freeman intends to stop cruising, that they would have to turn him away. As a marina is private land they could, legally, put him anywhere they like so 'full' is a very difficult thing to define.

 

the usual nay-sayers can wriggle and squirm as much as they like but the fact remains that this gentleman's use of the canal system is explicitly allowed by law.

 

As far as I understand it he declared that he did have a home mooring.

 

Yes, C&RT did question the marina. His arguement is that as long as the marina are happy with the arangement it is no business of C&RT's.

 

Ken

[Higgs]

Exactly, if the marina say "you can leave your boat here when you are not cruising" that is exactly what is required by the Act.

 

the usual nay-sayers can wriggle and squirm as much as they like but the fact remains that this gentleman's use of the canal system is explicitly allowed by law.

 

The water inside the marina is a continuation of CRT 'territory'. Would this same use of a mooring or accommodation be allowed for End of Garden moorings.

Edited March 12, 2013 by Higgs

[Zayna]

So if you leave your 'home mooring' and go off for the summer and then during the summer look for a new 'home mooring' for winter, what are you then?

[Guest]

So if you leave your 'home mooring' and go off for the summer and then during the summer look for a new 'home mooring' for winter, what are you then?

 

A continuous cruiser with a winter mooring.

[KenK]

The water inside the marina is a continuation of CRT 'territory'. Would this same use of a mooring or accommodation be allowed for End of Garden moorings.

 

The marina pays a connection fee and a percentage based on the number of berths but that doesn't give C&RT any rights over the water in the marina.

 

Chris Pink is right, C&RT have to abide by the Waterways Acts and all that is required is that he has to have a place where the boat may be lawfully kept, he has. It doesn't say he has to pay for it and as long as the marina is happy with the arrangement I do not see what C&RT can do about it.

 

If for example you had a friend who had a mooring and said you could use it whenever you wished to and only pay for when you were there, what's wrong with that?

 

Ken

 

So if you leave your 'home mooring' and go off for the summer and then during the summer look for a new 'home mooring' for winter, what are you then?

 

Instead of leaving and looking, what if you look arrange a new mooring which you start paying for when you arrive. You have a mooring, you are just not paying for it until you get there, which is exactly what we did last year incidently with the same marina.

 

In some parts of the country there are more spaces than boats, deals are available.

 

Ken

[Higgs]

The marina pays a connection fee and a percentage based on the number of berths but that doesn't give C&RT any rights over the water in the marina.

 

Chris Pink is right, C&RT have to abide by the Waterways Acts and all that is required is that he has to have a place where the boat may be lawfully kept, he has. It doesn't say he has to pay for it and as long as the marina is happy with the arrangement I do not see what C&RT can do about it.

 

If for example you had a friend who had a mooring and said you could use it whenever you wished to and only pay for when you were there, what's wrong with that?

 

Ken

 

Would you please write a letter to CRT for me. I seem to have to pay a licence fee, wether I venture out onto the canal or not. I'd have to say CRT do have rights.

 

On the friends mooring - If it was a single mooring for a single boat, both boats could not use the mooring at the same time. Otherwise, 50 boats could claim a possible mooring. Paper moorings.

 

The non payment of mooring fees does not work with End of Garden moorings, even if I wanted to be generous to the moorer. CRT will want what ?, 50% of what you might expect to pay for a local mooring.

 

So if you leave your 'home mooring' and go off for the summer and then during the summer look for a new 'home mooring' for winter, what are you then?

 

You have left a mooring and stopped paying for it. ?

 

And, you want to drift until the mood takes you and you decide you would like another mooring. I'd say you hadn't got a home mooring and were CC'ing, in effect.

Edited March 12, 2013 by Higgs

[arpeeuk]

I seem to have to pay a licence fee, wether I venture out onto the canal or not. I'd have to say CRT do have rights.

 

 

This is because the connection agreement between CRT (formally BW) and the marina requires that all boats have a license. There are marinas that have very old agreements where this doesn't apply and so you don't need a license until you leave the marina.

 

There are also sections of river that connect to the canal where you don't need a license and no part of any mooring fee is paid to CRT.

 

Rik

[GUMPY]

 

The non payment of mooring fees does not work with End of Garden moorings, even if I wanted to be generous to the moorer. CRT will want what ?, 50% of what you might expect to pay for a local mooring.

 

Actually you only have to pay for an EOG mooring when you are there.

I used to pay my landlord 12 months but BW 6 months as we had to pay EOG/farmers Field on top of what we paid to the landlord.

BW didnt like it but as I was off cruising April-Sept there was nothing they could do.

And no I didnt declare CC as the mooring spot was kept for me.

 

Also with the other boat we had a winter mooring most years and the licence was due in Dec so as We had a home mooring at the time of The licence we didnt declare cc.

[Higgs]

This is because the connection agreement between CRT (formally BW) and the marina requires that all boats have a license. There are marinas that have very old agreements where this doesn't apply and so you don't need a license until you leave the marina.

 

There are also sections of river that connect to the canal where you don't need a license and no part of any mooring fee is paid to CRT.

 

Rik

 

Old rights do exist with some marinas. I am not in one, though. Most, I'd guess, do not have these rights.

 

The mooring fee I pay has a percentage that includes payment for servicing this connection fee. Not sure, is it about 9%? I don't know how the figure to the marina is worked out - berth numbers in the marina or as a per moored boat, moored.

[Lesd]

A gentleman called Ralph Freeman posted on NBW a question which is a little different from the normal CC type.

Ralf moors for the winter in a marina and he pays for the time he spends there, before he leaves to spend the rest of the year cruising he arranges his winter mooring for the next year in the same marina, as an addition to the winter mooring he can, if he wishes or needs to, return to the marina at any time and pay on an ad hoc basis.

 

He believes he can declare that he has a home mooring, he also thinks that C&RT believe he is a CC’er.

 

As it happens he moors in the same marina I use and from what I have observed of his boating practice he seems to move every few days and keeps a log book so is obeying the CC guidelines, but does he need to?

 

In my opinion he does have a home mooring even if he only pays for it when he actually uses it, has he managed to have his cake and eat it?

 

Ken

 

Apart from being another interesting debate does it actually make any difference ? If he is boater with a home mooring or a cc'r his cruising pattern will be the same surely ? Or does he not want to be associated with us CC'ers ?? lol

[Chris Pink]

So if you leave your 'home mooring' and go off for the summer and then during the summer look for a new 'home mooring' for winter, what are you then?

 

The scum of the earth.

 

Not even an honest freeloader.

[Higgs]

Actually you only have to pay for an EOG mooring when you are there.

I used to pay my landlord 12 months but BW 6 months as we had to pay EOG/farmers Field on top of what we paid to the landlord.

BW didnt like it but as I was off cruising April-Sept there was nothing they could do.

And no I didnt declare CC as the mooring spot was kept for me.

 

If CRT allow that, like it or not, it does make CRT's argument against the OP's friend, weaker.

Edited March 12, 2013 by Higgs