How to value a boat...?

[alan_fincher]

Strange,

I didn't get the scrolling pictures at first.

It was built by Don Pride, apparently, (whoever he was!)

There is 1 record that matches your query

---

Joan Built by Don Pride - Length : 21.488 metres ( 70 feet 6 inches ) - Beam : 2.083 metres ( 6 feet 10 inches ) - Draft : 0.61 metres ( 2 feet ). Metal hull N/A power of 999 HP. Registered with Canal & River Trust number 62773 as a Powered Motor Boat.  ( Last updated on Wednesday 22nd May 2013 )

 

I'm not quite sure what I'm seeing.

The roof is apparently completely flat, both inside and out.  Is there any chance it is actually a wooden top?  (I can't see much obvious framing internally.)

There apperas to be a solid bulkhead at the rend of the main bedroom, meaning you can't pass through the whole boat.  At the moment I'm not seeing any bvious means of escape from that bedroom, though I think the absence of one would be a BSS fail, so I guess there must be?

[Athy]

13 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

 

Well I can see NINE photos on that advert!

 

Not a clue how old it is or the builder though. Other than VERY old judging by the sliding windows 

...and the Lister SR3.

But the 2017 blacking and anode replacement suggest that it's been looked after.

[jetzi]

15 minutes ago, Richard10002 said:

Why not post the link and get some proper focussed advice?

Sure, @alan_fincher guessed correctly - this one: https://www.gumtree.com/p/boats-kayaks-jet-skis/70ft-liveaboard-narrowboat-based-in-london/1304038666

 

7 minutes ago, alan_fincher said:

If it is this one, I don't think Forum members will be able to advise much.

Almost no useful information given, and just one picture!

However I agree, from what I can see, I don't think OP needs to worry about anybody racing to buy it.

 

I wasn't intending to be cagey, I was just wanting to ask the question of value more generally as she is representative of the size of narrowboat we want. As I said, we've made a list of every 70' boat on the market that we could find (19 in all) and we're working our way through them. I'd rather learn what to look for than bother the forum with each of those boats!

 

We've been to see her and the owners showed us the survey done by MarSurv Elliott Berry Marine Surveys in September 2016. She has apparently had a little overplating done but the survey doesn't describe that. I can answer questions about her if there are any that will help. For what it's worth, we get a good vibe from the sellers, we like them and trust them to tell the truth.

 

32 minutes ago, David Mack said:

Have you looked at Apolloduck.com which is probably the largest online boat ad site? Also boatsandoutboards.co.uk? 

Yes, these are the sites I used to compile my list:

• abcboatsales.com
• apolloduck.com
• devizesmarina.com
• boatsandoutboards.co.uk
• ebay.co.uk
• gumtree.com
• whiltonmarina.co.uk

 

1 hour ago, TheBiscuits said:

Why is a second hand Rolls Royce more than a second hand Lada?

Sure - but conversely you don't normally ask or care who built a house when looking for a new brick and mortar home. Narrowboats seem to be somewhere between a car and a house in these matters!

 

26 minutes ago, alan_fincher said:

However I don't think any of this list will be particularly relevant to the OP, who says their budget is definitely less than £37K for a full length boat.

Can you (or someone) suggest decent builders in the mid price range? We definitely have 30K, there is a small chance we could push beyond that if we can borrow some money from family.
 

[Athy]

2 minutes ago, ivan&alice said:

 

 

 

 

Can you (or someone) suggest decent builders in the mid price range? We definitely have 30K, there is a small chance we could push beyond that if we can borrow some money from family.
 

See post 14!

[alan_fincher]

What steel specs, (thicknesses) were used for the boat originally?
Where has it been overplated?
What steel spec was used for that?
What is the top made of?
Why it the roof apparently dead flat, rather than arched?
Who was Don Pride?

All those things are worth fully answering before any idea can be given if it is worth anything close to £37K

[David Mack]

If the survey has failed to note overplating, I don't think you can place much faith in it. Unless the plating was done as a result of the survey, in which case I would expect to see it in the surveyor's recommendations. 

[alan_fincher]

2 minutes ago, David Mack said:

If the survey has failed to note overplating, I don't think you can place much faith in it. Unless the plating was done as a result of the survey, in which case I would expect to see it in the surveyor's recommendations. 

Absolutely!

I would also expect to see it having been resurveyed to state that the surveyor was happy with the work done.

Sounds most irregular, whatever the truth of the matter!

[jetzi]

4 minutes ago, alan_fincher said:

Strange,

I didn't get the scrolling pictures at first.

It was built by Don Pride, apparently, (whoever he was!)

There is 1 record that matches your query

---

Joan Built by Don Pride - Length : 21.488 metres ( 70 feet 6 inches ) - Beam : 2.083 metres ( 6 feet 10 inches ) - Draft : 0.61 metres ( 2 feet ). Metal hull N/A power of 999 HP. Registered with Canal & River Trust number 62773 as a Powered Motor Boat.  ( Last updated on Wednesday 22nd May 2013 )

 

I'm not quite sure what I'm seeing.

The roof is apparently completely flat, both inside and out.  Is there any chance it is actually a wooden top?  (I can't see much obvious framing internally.)

There apperas to be a solid bulkhead at the rend of the main bedroom, meaning you can't pass through the whole boat.  At the moment I'm not seeing any bvious means of escape from that bedroom, though I think the absence of one would be a BSS fail, so I guess there must be?

Awesome, where did you get that record look up data from?

The roof is steel. Is it unusual that it's flat? The owners don't know all the history but they said they believe it might be a converted tug?

 

Yes there is a solid bulkhead in the bedroom, it's the only boat we've seen that doesn't have an exit on the rear end of the boat. There is an engine room behind that bulkhead. I didn't ask about BSS (boat safety certificate?) - it makes sense that it could be a safety concern...

 

The hull thicknesses range from 4.8mm to 6mm with an average of 5.3mm. The seller said the previous owner had some overplating done but the survey was done about the same time they bought the boat. So I'm actually wondering if the seller is mistaken about the overplating as it doesn't appear in the (comprehensive) survey. The survey did kick up some recommendations which the seller says have been addressed, most notably some cracked welds and a hole or two that have been filled in. And blacking early last year.

Not sure if I'll be able to find answers to the other questions - "what steel specs were used orginally" and "who was Don Pride"!

Post 14! Sorry, so the list we have of decent mid-range manufacturers sits at:

• Springer
• Les Allens
• Mindon
• Hancock & Lane
• ColeCraft
• Liverpool Boats

 

 

[alan_fincher]

Even if it were not a BSS requirement, (and from memory only, I believe it is), would you want to be trapped in that bedroom if there was a major fire between you and any feasible way of getting out of the boat?

If the answer to that question is "no", only consider this boat if it can be reasonably modified to provide a second escape route from the bedroom.

[rusty69]

7 minutes ago, ivan&alice said:

Awesome, where did you get that record look up data from?

The roof is steel. Is it unusual that it's flat? The owners don't know all the history but they said they believe it might be a converted tug?

 

Yes there is a solid bulkhead in the bedroom, it's the only boat we've seen that doesn't have an exit on the rear end of the boat. There is an engine room behind that bulkhead. I didn't ask about BSS (boat safety certificate?) - it makes sense that it could be a safety concern...

 

The hull thicknesses range from 4.8mm to 6mm with an average of 5.3mm. The seller said the previous owner had some overplating done but the survey was done about the same time they bought the boat. So I'm actually wondering if the seller is mistaken about the overplating as it doesn't appear in the (comprehensive) survey. The survey did kick up some recommendations which the seller says have been addressed, most notably some cracked welds and a hole or two that have been filled in. And blacking early last year.

Not sure if I'll be able to find answers to the other questions - "what steel specs were used orginally" and "who was Don Pride"!

Post 14! Sorry, so the list we have of decent mid-range manufacturers sits at:

• Springer
• Les Allens
• Mindon
• Hancock & Lane
• ColeCraft
• Liverpool Boats

 

 

https://canalplan.org.uk/boats/boats.php

 

 

Not sure i would class springer as mid range 

[David Mack]

4 minutes ago, alan_fincher said:

Even if it were not a BSS requirement, (and from memory only, I believe it is), would you want to be trapped in that bedroom if there was a major fire between you and any feasible way of getting out of the boat?

If the answer to that question is "no", only consider this boat if it can be reasonably modified to provide a second escape route from the bedroom.

And do the back cabins in your two boats have a second exit into the engine room? They do have a stove right next to the main entrance.

Edited July 22, 2018 by David Mack

[MtB]

4 minutes ago, rusty69 said:

https://canalplan.org.uk/boats/boats.php

 

 

Not sure i would class springer as mid range 

 

Nor Les Allen

[jetzi]

3 minutes ago, David Mack said:

do the back cabins in your two boats have a second exit into the engine room?

No. The only entrance to the stern bedroom is through the bathroom/kitchen/living area through to the bow entrance. There is a large hatch midships that could be used as an escape route - but you would still have to get out of the bedroom and there is only one way out.

[George and Dragon]

37 minutes ago, ivan&alice said:

Sure - but conversely you don't normally ask or care who built a house when looking for a new brick and mortar home.

 

You may not. I worked in the building trade for a while...

[70liveaboard]

Coming on this forum and asking about buying boats isn't such a good idea, as I found out. But I have long experience in boats and the building of them. I came on to ask out of curiosity having read the forum. And yes, not to my surprise, the lack of real knowledge, was astounding. They tend to go off name really, and some of the ones mentioned in here, I wouldn't have bought a boat from. A few I have, but its an honest boat you want, not fake rivets, filler, lack of internal strength and so on..

 

Many names hold their price and indeed some increase. High end boats, or perceived high end, tend to depreciate like a brick.

Todays market down south, especially London is not a good guide to buying.

 

I knew the builder of this house boat, unusual style, but great for a houseboat. I know for a fact it cost around £32,000 brand new. Its now in London with a mooring.

https://london.boatshed.com/wide_beam_40ft_with_london_mooring-boat-244221.html

So the market is haywire at the moment.

 

Have you thought of shorter boats, or is 70' a must. There are plenty of 50'-60' around.

https://narrowboats.apolloduck.co.uk/boat.phtml?id=575242

 

Go with your gut feeling, your the one going to live on it. Obviously an out of water survey would be a good idea.

Chances are its not a bad buy, offer £26,000 and tell them its cash and you can do the deal straight away.

[jetzi]

7 minutes ago, 70liveaboard said:

Coming on this forum and asking about buying boats isn't such a good idea, as I found out.

I will be honest: I know next to nothing about boats, so I consider this one part of my education. The users on this forum have been extremely welcoming, helpful and responsive, and given that they willingly spend their free time either on a boat or on this forum, I feel that their opinions are certainly better than nothing - and certainly better than anyone who is actively trying to sell me a boat!

 

The 40' widebeam on a London Poplar mooring - I'd not be surprised at her near 6 figure price tag even if she was underwater! We aren't considering a mooring for the time being.

 

We were considering a 57' boat (and have looked at several) so we'd be able to get around more of the network, but having been on a few, the 70'ers are just a whole nother level of space. It's important to us because both of us work from home most of the time. It also doesn't seem like you pay more for the extra 13 feet, so why not!

[Boater Sam]

1 minute ago, ivan&alice said:

It also doesn't seem like you pay more for the extra 13 feet, so why not!

Oh but it does, its more boat to black, more to paint, more windows to leak, more insurance, more licence a hell of a lot more to overplate if necessary. Considerably more mooring fees. And it won't go everywhere. A 58' boat will stand more chance of being rigid and sound, poor 70' boats flex like a stick of rhubarb.

[Paul C]

There is one 100% assured way of valuing the boat you're interested in: buy it. 

[rusty69]

1 minute ago, Boater Sam said:

Oh but it does, its more boat to black, more to paint, more windows to leak, more insurance, more licence a hell of a lot more to overplate if necessary. Considerably more mooring fees. And it won't go everywhere. A 58' boat will stand more chance of being rigid and sound, poor 70' boats flex like a stick of rhubarb.

More elbow room if working from home with wife, so less likely to divorce, therefore cheaper in the long run

 

Good 70' boats don't flex like rhubarb. 

[Boater Sam]

You are looking at buying in London at London's inflated  prices, get out and look further afield.

[alan_fincher]

1 hour ago, David Mack said:

And do the back cabins in your two boats have a second exit into the engine room? They do have a stove right next to the main entrance.

You know the answer to that, I think!

 

Doesn't make it acceptable for a residential boat in the modern age though, does it.

 

As you know historic boats are allowed BSS exemptions that would be fails for more modern boats.

[jetzi]

6 minutes ago, Boater Sam said:

You are looking at buying in London at London's inflated  prices, get out and look further afield.

We're planning to rent a car and look at boats in the midlands this weekend.

The inflated prices in London seem to mostly in the case of boats with moorings. I've been looking at ads all over the country and I haven't noticed a big difference in price. Sample size is tiny though - we've only found one 70 foot narrowboat in London.

 

25 minutes ago, Boater Sam said:

Oh but it does, its more boat to black, more to paint, more windows to leak, more insurance, more licence a hell of a lot more to overplate if necessary. Considerably more mooring fees. And it won't go everywhere. A 58' boat will stand more chance of being rigid and sound, poor 70' boats flex like a stick of rhubarb.

 

True, maintenance costs will be higher (22% higher than a 57' if it's done per-foot). We can cope with the ongoing costs - at the moment though we're mainly concerned with the purchase price because we can't get more than 25K in finance (and at 14.4% APR at that, yikes).

 

23 minutes ago, rusty69 said:

More elbow room if working from home with wife, so less likely to divorce, therefore cheaper in the long run

 

@rusty69 gets it!

 

3 minutes ago, alan_fincher said:

As you know historic boats are allowed BSS exemptions that would be fails for more modern boats.

I'm not sure what implications failing the Boat Safety Scheme certification would have. From the sounds of it on their website certain waterways and moorings would not allow you on them, and it could make it hard to get them insured.

 

And of course there is the undesirable outcome of dying in a fire. Or sinking and drowning in canal water in your sleep.

 

We could theoretically cut a hole in the bedroom - make a hatch into the engine room or perhaps install a skylight? It seems like a solvable problem rather than a dealbreaker.

 

[Boater Sam]

Look at what is available further out, 

https://www.theyachtmarket.com/boats_for_sale/1570662/?utm_source=newsnow.co.uk

 

Yes its under offer, but how low is the offer? Its not sold so less than the asking price.

R&D are mid range, early ones had 8mm bottoms instead of 10mm I think.

[MtB]

1 hour ago, ivan&alice said:

Awesome, where did you get that record look up data from?

The roof is steel. Is it unusual that it's flat? The owners don't know all the history but they said they believe it might be a converted tug?

 

Yes there is a solid bulkhead in the bedroom, it's the only boat we've seen that doesn't have an exit on the rear end of the boat. There is an engine room behind that bulkhead. I didn't ask about BSS (boat safety certificate?) - it makes sense that it could be a safety concern...

 

The hull thicknesses range from 4.8mm to 6mm with an average of 5.3mm. The seller said the previous owner had some overplating done but the survey was done about the same time they bought the boat. So I'm actually wondering if the seller is mistaken about the overplating as it doesn't appear in the (comprehensive) survey. The survey did kick up some recommendations which the seller says have been addressed, most notably some cracked welds and a hole or two that have been filled in. And blacking early last year.

Not sure if I'll be able to find answers to the other questions - "what steel specs were used orginally" and "who was Don Pride"!

Post 14! Sorry, so the list we have of decent mid-range manufacturers sits at:

• Springer
• Les Allens
• Mindon
• Hancock & Lane
• ColeCraft
• Liverpool Boats

 

 

 

 

I'd also cross Liverpool Boats off your list of mid-range builders. Liverpool boats were the cheapest boats money could buy, before they went bust. Every expense spared in their manufacture to try to wring a profit out of each sale!

[70liveaboard]

5 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

 

I'd also cross Liverpool Boats off your list of mid-range builders. Liverpool boats were the cheapest boats money could buy, before they went bust. Every expense spared in their manufacture to try to wring a profit out of each sale!

This confirms my revious post.. Complete rubbish. Liverpool boats are good boats on the whole.