Battery SG readings.

[canals are us?]

I have just fully charged my batteries and current going in was 0.1amp according to the NASA BM2.

I turned off all loads and all power sources like charger and solar and let the batteries rest for 1 hour. The start voltage before resting was 13.4v and after an hour and taking readings was down to 12.9volts.

Should I of taken the readings immediately after charging?

Anyway these are the readings.

Battery 1

1 = 1.230

2 = 1.225

3 = 1.240

Battery 2.

4 = 1.230

5 = 1.230

6 = 1.250

What are your thoughts are they ok to add 2 more? Need equalising? They are 3.5 years old.

Many thanks. James

[Phil.]

They are all low I believe if batteries are fully charged. You haven't said whether you compensated for temperature in your readings. This will also effect the readings. When were they last equalised.

 

edited to add, just had a quick look at temp compensation chart. They are all low so yes equalise.

http://www.trojanbattery.com/tech-support/faq/

Edited March 5, 2018 by Phil.

[canals are us?]

I have never equalised them as my charger didn't have that function. Original charger was a 3 stage 30amp fairstone 1230D.  I now have a Victron Combi and will try again the equalise video clip  on youtube by operating the main switch. I tried with a pen and couldn't do it! I'll try a pencil with rubber on the end!

Looking online at SG charts it says the batteries are approximately 75% charged or is that 100% charged but 25% sulphated?

James.

Edited March 5, 2018 by canals are us?

[Phil.]

9 minutes ago, canals are us? said:

I have never equalised them as my charger didn't have that function. Original charger was a 3 stage 30amp fairstone 1230D.  I now have a Victron Combi and will try again the equalise video clip  on youtube by operating the main switch. I tried with a pen and couldn't do it! I'll try a pencil with rubber on the end!

Looking online at SG charts it says the batteries are approximately 75% charged or is that 100% charged but 25% sulphated?

James.

They would be 100% charged of their remaining capacity which has been reduced due to sulphation. If they have not been equalised in 3.5 years they are definitely due it. 

Edited, just noticed you have solar. It maybe easier to use this to equalise if it is programmable. I know nothing about victron but mastervolt equalise mode is a royal pain so I use the solar to do it.

Edited March 5, 2018 by Phil.

[canals are us?]

4 hours ago, Phil. said:

They would be 100% charged of their remaining capacity which has been reduced due to sulphation. If they have not been equalised in 3.5 years they are definitely due it. 

Edited, just noticed you have solar. It maybe easier to use this to equalise if it is programmable. I know nothing about victron but mastervolt equalise mode is a royal pain so I use the solar to do it.

My victron multiplus  can do an equalisation charge by toggling the main switch as shown in the youtube video. Trouble is I can't do it with a pen. I'll try with a pencil with eraser on end as he uses that, but looks quite a knack to it.

My tracer 40A MPPT Controller for solar can have the equalisation settings altered but needs the lead and software to do it the same as the victron. A laptop, lead and software required for both! Why didn't Victron just fit a switch!

Hoping to master the youtube video! Once I manage to do a equalisation charge I'll take the SG readings again.

James

[TheBiscuits]

2 hours ago, canals are us? said:

My tracer 40A MPPT Controller for solar can have the equalisation settings altered but needs the lead and software to do it

Find someone with the Tracer monitor screen who will lend it to you, or buy one from Bimble.

You don't need the software and computer lead to change the settings, but you do need the display so you can see and change the settings.

http://www.bimblesolar.com/offgrid/mppt/MT50-meter

The settings are stored in your tracer unit, so you can plug one of these in, alter the settings and give it back if you don't want to buy one yourself.

Edited March 5, 2018 by TheBiscuits

[canals are us?]

1 hour ago, TheBiscuits said:

Find someone with the Tracer monitor screen who will lend it to you, or buy one from Bimble.

You don't need the software and computer lead to change the settings, but you do need the display so you can see and change the settings.

http://www.bimblesolar.com/offgrid/mppt/MT50-meter

The settings are stored in your tracer unit, so you can plug one of these in, alter the settings and give it back if you don't want to buy one yourself.

I have the remote MT50 meter and have tried to alter the settings on the MT50 but haven't managed to, only the battery type and AH capacity. How do you alter the equalisation voltage settings with the MT50 Meter?

 It seems from the meter instructions if I'm right I need a cable like this https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Communication-cable-CC-USB-RS485-150U-USB-to-PC-RS485-for-EPSolar-Tracer-A-BN-MO/152305757560?hash=item2376216d78:g:p-gAAOSwal5YHKk0 and download the software on epsolar website. This will enable me to alter the equalisation voltage on my laptop.

This is far cheaper than the victron enabler at £60 for the box of tricks and cable.

James

 

 

[dmr]

Fine to take SG right after charging, or after resting.

Three readings per battery so I assume these are Trojans or similar?

SGs are quite low, might recover from a good long equalisation, but if they have been like this for 3 years it might be too late to save them.

I do suspect, from my own limited observations, that sulphated batteries appear to drop to about 12.225 and then stay there without getting much worse. I think mtb has observed similar, so these might be at the end of their lives. If you are full time off grid then 3.5 years is an ok life for a Trojan, but with care you could probably get a fair bit more.

............Dave

[TheBiscuits]

7 minutes ago, canals are us? said:

I have the remote MT50 meter and have tried to alter the settings on the MT50 but haven't managed to, only the battery type and AH capacity. How do you alter the equalisation voltage settings with the MT50 Meter?

 It seems from the meter instructions if I'm right I need a cable like this https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Communication-cable-CC-USB-RS485-150U-USB-to-PC-RS485-for-EPSolar-Tracer-A-BN-MO/152305757560?hash=item2376216d78:g:p-gAAOSwal5YHKk0 and download the software on epsolar website. This will enable me to alter the equalisation voltage on my laptop.

This is far cheaper than the victron enabler at £60 for the box of tricks and cable.

James

 

 

There is a custom battery type option which allows you to set everything.  Have you got the manual?

[canals are us?]

2 hours ago, dmr said:

Fine to take SG right after charging, or after resting.

Three readings per battery so I assume these are Trojans or similar?

SGs are quite low, might recover from a good long equalisation, but if they have been like this for 3 years it might be too late to save them.

I do suspect, from my own limited observations, that sulphated batteries appear to drop to about 12.225 and then stay there without getting much worse. I think mtb has observed similar, so these might be at the end of their lives. If you are full time off grid then 3.5 years is an ok life for a Trojan, but with care you could probably get a fair bit more.

............Dave

Yes Trojan T105's. If I can't get the SG to improve, I should bin them and buy new ones? Was hoping I can revive these. What SG readings should I be looking for after an, or several equalisation charges? 

I was hoping to add them to 2 new ones? They have been on charger for most of their life on shore hook up at a Marina.

2 hours ago, TheBiscuits said:

There is a custom battery type option which allows you to set everything.  Have you got the manual?

Yes, have the manual I'll have another go!

EDIT. Had another go and found if I put the battery type to user I could enter the voltage settings. I have managed to put the equalisation charge to 15.5 volts and 180 minutes of time, anything higher comes up as parameter error. Probably needs other settings higher but don't know which to alter.

James

Edited March 6, 2018 by canals are us?

[canals are us?]

When will the solar controller do an equalisation charge? I presume on a sunny day?

James

[Sir Nibble]

Full charge SG should be 1.280. Looks like sulphation to me.

[Tony Brooks]

8 minutes ago, Sir Nibble said:

Full charge SG should be 1.280. Looks like sulphation to me.

My thoughts a well but I let the "equalise it" brigade have their say.

Not that equalising them sill not help, it will, but I doubt it will make a significant difference if he batteries have been like that for any time.

Anyway the OP has a testing procedure problem in my view. I think they should have put a small load on the bank after all charging had stopped rather than wait just an hour. I suppose the good thing is that from those readings and the way the voltage held up there is every chance there is not a cell staring to short internally.

[nicknorman]

6 hours ago, canals are us? said:

Yes Trojan T105's. If I can't get the SG to improve, I should bin them and buy new ones? Was hoping I can revive these. What SG readings should I be looking for after an, or several equalisation charges? 

I was hoping to add them to 2 new ones? They have been on charger for most of their life on shore hook up at a Marina.

Yes, have the manual I'll have another go!

EDIT. Had another go and found if I put the battery type to user I could enter the voltage settings. I have managed to put the equalisation charge to 15.5 volts and 180 minutes of time, anything higher comes up as parameter error. Probably needs other settings higher but don't know which to alter.

James

You say on shore hookup but the consequences of that depend on charging voltages etc. 15.5v for 3 hrs will be worth trying if there’s enough sun. You will be able to see if there is any upward trend on the sg, which should be 1.277. Of course the batteries should be fully charged before starting to equalise.

[MtB]

2 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

Of course the batteries should be fully charged before starting to equalise.

 

How fully charged is necessary? Tail current of say 4%? Or 2%? Orr 1%?

Is there any harm or problem with starting to equalise before fully charged? Say 99% on a correctly calibrated smartgauge?

[WotEver]

14 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

Is there any harm or problem with starting to equalise before fully charged?

No

Assuming that the ‘not fully’ means ‘almost full’

[MtB]

Just now, WotEver said:

No

 

Why the advice to wait until fully charged then? I'm fishing for the boundary. Or can a battery be desulphated in any state of charge?

[WotEver]

16 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

Say 99% on a smartgauge?

How many more times...?  Although it’s a maximum error, SmartGauge can be 10% out when charging, so you shouldn’t rely on it to tell you when you’re at 99.9%. 

2 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

Why the advice to wait until fully charged then? I'm fishing for the boundary.

High 90’s. 

[MtB]

2 minutes ago, WotEver said:

High 90’s. 

 

Ok thanks!

3 minutes ago, WotEver said:

so you shouldn’t rely on it to tell you when you’re at 99.9%. 

 

Check again what I wrote. It wasn't 99.9%

And Nick disagrees with you. He says his SG reports pretty accurately 100% SoC when using tail current to measure. So does my recalibrated SG. 

[WotEver]

2 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

And Nick disagrees with you. He says his SG reports pretty accurately 100% SoC when using tail current to measure. So does my recalibrated SG. 

It has nothing to do with agreeing or disagreeing. In Nick’s installation (and most others including yours) SmartGauge will be within a couple of percent at 99.9% SoC. however it might, depending on the Batteries and charge source, be up to 10% adrift. 

If experience shows you that in your particular case SmartGauge is accurate at 100% then great, use it to let you know. But don’t rely on that until you know. 

[MtB]

34 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

Not that equalising them sill not help, it will, but I doubt it will make a significant difference if he batteries have been like that for any time.

 

This is consistent with my own experience. Once my undercharging problem was finally understood my new Yuasas had been undercharged for about three months, and no amount of desulphating would bring them back to badge specification. 

In fact my solar equalises them for about half an hour every day for 8 months of the year with no effect on the old suphation.

[WotEver]

1 minute ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

This is consistent with my own experience. Once my undercharging problem was finally understood my new Yuasas had been undercharged for about three months, and no amount of desulphating would bring them back to badge specification. 

In fact my solar equalises them for about half an hour every day for 8 months of the year with no effect on the old suphation.

This is well documented. Hardened sulphate (or sulfate if you prefer) once really hard will never be removed. You would do more damage to the batteries through plate erosion than you’d ever gain by sulphate reversal. 

[nicknorman]

16 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

This is consistent with my own experience. Once my undercharging problem was finally understood my new Yuasas had been undercharged for about three months, and no amount of desulphating would bring them back to badge specification. 

In fact my solar equalises them for about half an hour every day for 8 months of the year with no effect on the old suphation.

However, the quality of your batteries was questionable. They were not Trojans, they were some kind of replica.

25 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

And Nick disagrees with you. He says his SG reports pretty accurately 100% SoC when using tail current to measure. So does my recalibrated SG. 

Make a note: MtB says his correctly functioning SG is pretty accurate at 100% on charge!

[MtB]

5 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

However, the quality of your batteries was questionable. They were not Trojans, they were some kind of replica.

 

Yes that is a big unknown. Cuthound holds the brand in high regard though. In addition I was too ignorant on the day I purchased them to think of measuring the SG and terminal voltage before buying them, so I may have been sold a pup. 

Edited March 6, 2018 by Mike the Boilerman
Missing word

[WotEver]

36 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

Make a note: MtB says his correctly functioning SG is pretty accurate at 100% on charge!

I assumed that it was a temporary aberration and that normal service would be resumed shortly.