mtb's Trojanoids

[dmr]

Have just seen this on Facebook (hope I'm not breaking any laws by copying a FB post)

=================================

Hi xxxxxxxx - I finally got a reply of sorts from Yuasa UK about their T105 replicas (Yuasa DCB105). They "estimate" as follows:

100% DoD approx. 500 cycles down to 60% battery capacity
50% DoD >700 cycles down to 60% battery capacity
30% DoD >1000 cycles down to 60% battery capacity
20% DoD >1100 cycles down to 60% battery capacity

===============================

So, these look significantly inferior to Trojans. The 50% cycle life is only 700 compared with something like 1700 for the Trojans, and also the Yuassa "end of life" is a dodgy 60% whilst I think the Trojans are 80%.

If these figures are right than the Yuassa are closer to a "cheapo" than a Trojan. I wonder if they are standard leisure type plates in the Trojan form factor?.

...............Dave

[WotEver]

47 minutes ago, dmr said:

these look significantly inferior to Trojans

They certainly do, and those figures would go a long way towards explaining why they’ve behaved so poorly. 

[cuthound]

I wonder how much cheaper they were thsn genuine Trojans?

In my experience with batteries you always get exactly what you pay for.

Having said that if you don't use the correct charging regime no battery will last long, irrespective of cost.

Edited October 27, 2017 by cuthound
To add the last sentance.

[keith.]

1 minute ago, cuthound said:

I wonder how much cheaper they were thsn genuine Trojans?

In my experience with batteries you always get exactly what you pay for.

Right now with Tayna including the carriage charges they are not cheaper. £131.85 + £37.99 for Yuasa and £139.95 + £10.38 for Trojan. I do wonder why the difference in carriage charges for essentially the same battery.

 

Could someone post the equivalent Trojan figures to make a direct comparison please.

[dmr]

The Yuassa figure are described as an "estimate" so might of course be totally wrong. It won't be the first time that a manufacturer, or their local agent, have got stuff like this badly wrong. And if you scan the www there are two quite different sets of cycle life figures for Trojans.

................Dave

[WotEver]

2 hours ago, keith. said:

Could someone post the equivalent Trojan figures to make a direct comparison please.

Graph here: 

http://www.trojanbattery.com/pdf/datasheets/T105RE_TrojanRE_Data_Sheets.pdf

Over 1000 cycles at 80% DoD!!

Edited October 27, 2017 by WotEver

[nicknorman]

Well those are the RE version, which are pricey!

these are the normal ones:

Edited October 27, 2017 by nicknorman

[nicknorman]

Anyway, sounds like MtB bought a pup, even before he was cruel to them.

[Alan de Enfield]

27 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

Well those are the RE version, which are pricey!

these are the normal ones:

Only suitable for CMers then

(Stationary   Applications)

[mrsmelly]

I have just googled Trojan batteries and they actualy do some a similar size 12 volt to proper leisure batteries except they are 84 million pounds each and weigh 5 kilos more than my cheapos. In all honesty would they last 84 years if I bought them and " looked after them? " I used to have on one bought some REAL traction batteries that were 2 volts each weighing 54 kilos and Mr Trojan calls his traction batteries at only 30 kilos!! is this because everything in America is " bigger and better ?"

[MtB]

On 27/10/2017 at 16:04, dmr said:

Have just seen this on Facebook (hope I'm not breaking any laws by copying a FB post)

=================================

Hi xxxxxxxx - I finally got a reply of sorts from Yuasa UK about their T105 replicas (Yuasa DCB105). They "estimate" as follows:

100% DoD approx. 500 cycles down to 60% battery capacity
50% DoD >700 cycles down to 60% battery capacity
30% DoD >1000 cycles down to 60% battery capacity
20% DoD >1100 cycles down to 60% battery capacity

===============================

So, these look significantly inferior to Trojans. The 50% cycle life is only 700 compared with something like 1700 for the Trojans, and also the Yuassa "end of life" is a dodgy 60% whilst I think the Trojans are 80%.

If these figures are right than the Yuassa are closer to a "cheapo" than a Trojan. I wonder if they are standard leisure type plates in the Trojan form factor?.

...............Dave

 

Well that's all very interesting, thanks Dave. 

The Yuasas were roughly 15% cheaper than the Trojans and the salesman was very insistent they sold tons of them with no complaint at all. He assured me they were the same weight as a Trojan and this is the factor that swayed me. I decided to buy them to see how they panned out. Looks like my gut feeling (which I ignored out of curiosity) that I should really buy the Trojans was right. But I am ever curious and it could well have paid off. Just that it didn't. 

Same with the Whispergen. It's an experiment to see what happens. Tonight it has been running two hours now and the SGs say 95% SoC and 83% respectively. The tail current is currently(!) 8.2A at 28.85 charging voltage. Dave's mantra of "watch the SG during discharge, watch the ammeter during charging" is breathtakingly and remarkably simple and wise. This should be quoted at the top of all "battery problems" threads and posts IMO. Or maybe I'm finally getting it.

[WotEver]

17 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

Or maybe I'm finally getting it.

I think it’s this. We’ve been saying “Use the SmartGauge to know when to start charging, or at the very least stop discharging” followed by “Charge until tail current at Absorption voltage is around 1% of capacity and has remained static for about 45 minutes” for a very, very long time. 

‘Dave’s Mantra’ is a shorter way of saying the same thing. 

[dmr]

As I said, I am not convinced that these Yuassa figures are based on anything more than a guess. Its hard to believe but a lot of big name engineering companies are just low tech manufacturers who have very little real technical knowledge about what they make.

But, if the figure of 700 cycles at 50% is correct, I reckon this roughly corresponds to only 525 cycles mapped to the more conventional "end of life" at 80% capacity.

................Dave

[Gareth E]

I've had my 12v Trojan for a year now, the improvement over cheapos is startling. With the old ones I used to wake up in the morning, after a bit of telly and internet the previous evening with the battery at anything between 12.2 and 12.4. With the Trojan the lowest it's been is 12.6, it's usually 12.7. 

Edited October 28, 2017 by Gareth E

[cuthound]

11 hours ago, dmr said:

As I said, I am not convinced that these Yuassa figures are based on anything more than a guess. Its hard to believe but a lot of big name engineering companies are just low tech manufacturers who have very little real technical knowledge about what they make.

But, if the figure of 700 cycles at 50% is correct, I reckon this roughly corresponds to only 525 cycles mapped to the more conventional "end of life" at 80% capacity.

................Dave

I'd agree, Certainly for commercial use (critical power applications) in Europe Yuasa are the largest supplier, and they didn't get into that position by supplying batteries that are not fit for purpose.

If the cycle information is correct, then I suspect that are aimed at the market for mobility scooters and the like.

[nicknorman]

11 minutes ago, cuthound said:

I'd agree, Certainly for commercial use (critical power applications) in Europe Yuasa are the largest supplier, and they didn't get into that position by supplying batteries that are not fit for purpose.

If the cycle information is correct, then I suspect that are aimed at the market for mobility scooters and the like.

No, but the usage pattern and hence optimum design for critical power application is quite different from that of a leisure battery.

[Alan de Enfield]

16 minutes ago, Gareth E said:

I've had my 12v Trojan for a year now, the improvement over cheapos is startling. With the old ones I used to wake up in the morning, after a bit of telly and internet the previous evening with the battery at anything between 12.2 and 12.4. With the Trojan the lowest it's been is 12.6, it's usually 12.7. 

What was the capacity of your 'old ones', and what is the capacity of your Trojans ?

If you replaced 'like with like' (Ahr) then what you say is not possible, if you doubled your Ahr capacity you could have achieved the same with 'cheapos'.

You are still using the 'same amount of power', and still need to replace exactly the same amount as you did previously.

[cuthound]

1 minute ago, nicknorman said:

No, but the usage pattern and hence optimum design for critical power application is quite different from that of a leisure battery.

Exactly, Trojan and presumably Mike's Trojanoids (can't you get a cream for that?) Are marketed as "semi-traction", which means the plates will be fewer and thicker than a pure leisure battery, but no where near as thick as those on a proper traction battery. Proper traction batteries will use a different plate construction, active material and probably use more antimony in their construction than leisure batteries. 

No battery will be built specifically for the leisure boat and recreational vehicle markets - they are too small, so these markets use a product designed for another market. Typically engine starter batteries or golf cart batteries.

[nicknorman]

2 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

What was the capacity of your 'old ones', and what is the capacity of your Trojans ?

If you replaced 'like with like' (Ahr) then what you say is not possible, if you doubled your Ahr capacity you could have achieved the same with 'cheapos'.

You are still using the 'same amount of power', and still need to replace exactly the same amount as you did previously.

It is possible if the old ones were way way down on capacity. Which they probably were if my experience of cheapo leisures is anything to go by.

[Alan de Enfield]

6 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

It is possible if the old ones were way way down on capacity. Which they probably were if my experience of cheapo leisures is anything to go by.

In which case replacing them with new cheapos would have the same effect.

[MtB]

On 28/10/2017 at 09:45, Alan de Enfield said:

In which case replacing them with new cheapos would have the same effect.

 

Initially perhaps, but Trojans will tolerate more abuse than el cheapos, yes? 

Interestingly Gareth E says he has a "12v Trojan" in the singular, so he must have something other than a conventional set of 4 x 6v T105s.

[Alan de Enfield]

2 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Initially perhaps, but Trojans will tolerate more abuse than el cheapos, yes? 

Interestingly Gareth E says he has a "12v Trojan" in the singular, so he must have something other than a conventional set of 4 x 6v T105s.

He also states 'old battery' (in the singular)

Agreed that the Trojans should last longer, but he seems amazed by the difference now (as new, compared to the old).

He would have had the same improvement by replacing cheapo with cheapo.

[MtB]

On 28/10/2017 at 10:09, Alan de Enfield said:

He also states 'old battery' (in the singular)

Agreed that the Trojans should last longer, but he seems amazed by the difference now (as new, compared to the old).

He would have had the same improvement by replacing cheapo with cheapo.

 

Well he's had the Trojan for a year now, so the difference persists beyond "as new".

[Alan de Enfield]

3 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Well he's had the Trojan for a year now, so the difference persists beyond "as new".

But until we know if he replaced 1 elderly 100Ahr battery with 4x 225Ah 6v Trojans we do not know if he is comparing apples & oranges.

[MtB]

On 28/10/2017 at 10:21, Alan de Enfield said:

But until we know if he replaced 1 elderly 100Ahr battery with 4x 225Ah 6v Trojans we do not know if he is comparing apples & oranges.

Well we know he didn't. 

He says he bought a 12v Trojan. Not 4 six volt Trojans.