Gas connections

[nicknorman]

And the point is that both engineers and technicians are valuable members of society, but with completely different roles. I suppose it is similar to the difference between doctors and nurses. When you are ill in hospital, both are invaluable.

[jddevel]

3 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

I think you are taking offence too easily

No offence taken I quote now from my earlier comment

Boy have I missed the banter.

[MtB]

Totally agree with Nick. I too am on a mission to highlight the difference.

I am proud of my spanner-wielding abilities. When I worked in an office with loads of qualified engineers as a teenager I was shocked at how clueless they all were about how to do stuff like rebuild an engine. 

[jddevel]

6 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

Easy to lose your balance with your head upside down in a gas locker and shining a torch.

This is of course why bubble testers never get used.

Installed by an engineer or a technician or just someone with no common sense perhaps?

[nicknorman]

2 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

Totally agree with Nick. I too am on a mission to highlight the difference.

I am proud of my spanner-wielding abilities. When I worked in an office with loads of qualified engineers as a teenager I was shocked at how clueless they all were about how to do stuff like rebuild an engine. 

Of course. It is not an engineer's job to rebuild an engine.

[MtB]

5 minutes ago, jddevel said:

Installed by an engineer or a technician or just someone with no common sense perhaps?

 

Installed by a technician in accordance with BSS drafted, probably, by engineers.

(Yes, no common sense mandating it to be inside the dark and dinghy gas locker.)

Edited September 2, 2017 by Mike the Boilerman

[nicknorman]

1 minute ago, jddevel said:

Installed by an engineer or a technician or just someone with no common sense perhaps?

Installed by a technician - or a boat owner. Common sense is not the issue. The issue is perhaps that a bubble tester is not the best way to check for a gas tight system. A test point and manometer is. Bubble testers might be considered as a bit of a shortcut to avoid having to use a GS-qualified BSS person for a live-aboard boat's BSC check. Which is silly, because in my experience a GS qualified BSS examiner is no more expensive than a non-GS qualified one. 

5 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Installed by a technician in accordance with BSS drafted, probably, by engineers.

(Yes, no common sense mandating it to be inside the dark and dinghy gas locker.)

Well I'm unconvinced that the BSS was drawn up by engineers!

[Tom Richmond]

Well hasn't this thread been a wild read! 

Through all of it though, what do people actually advise in a new gas installation? Advise from my local BSS examiner was to fit a bubble tester. Other opinions on this thread (which didn't seem to be refuted) was that a bubble tester could throttle my gas supply. People don't seem to think they are so great, so what is the alternative? Just a test point? Is that gonna be ok with the BSS inspection? Do I just need to find a Gsr inspector? 

[rusty69]

10 hours ago, Dylan said:

Do you fit the buble testing thing or use monammeter?

Is a monammeter used for measuring current flow in French rivers ? 

Edited September 3, 2017 by rusty69

[Athy]

8 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Please carry on. I too find it intensely irritating to be called an 'engineer' when I am a technician. 

I correct people at every available opportunity.

Where does the commonly used expression "gas fitter" come in? I would think that it's the equivalent of "gas technician" but I' not sure.

[Alan de Enfield]

8 hours ago, jddevel said:

I`m afraid you will have to please elaborate on the mistake

Not a 'mistake' just possibly not the best option for a liveaboard

 

If you have a bubble tester fitted, then ANY BSSC examiner can test and certify your boat.

Without a bubble tester unless your examiner is also Gas Safe Registered then you will also have to employ a Gas Safe Registered person so the BSS examiner can witness the tests being done.

 

Taken from the Guidance Notes for Examiners :

keeping on the right side of the law

Boats used for residential purposes as well as hire boats* and floating businesses* (such as cafés or shops) all fall within scope of the Gas Safety [Installation and Use] Regulations (GSIUR) and as such any LPG 'work' must be undertaken by Gas Safe registered installers.

As the definition of 'work' covers the removal and replacement of a screw nipple on a gas test point, the scope of the GSIUR includes carrying out BSS LPG tightness test.

So, on a boat in scope of GSIUR, examiners who are not Gas Safe registered can only complete check 7.12.2 by either:

• undertaking a gas tightness test using a bubble tester where fitted and correctly located; or,
• observing the tightness test conducted by a (LPG boats-competent) Gas Safe registered installer

It is important to be aware that people who are prosecuted and found guilty of contravening the GSIUR, can face fines of up to £5000 for each offence or even jail terms for very serious breaches. The HSE and local authorities are active in pursuing people not complying with the regulations, especially where hazards have arisen.

Check in advance

If you are not Gas Safe registered, as part of your initial dealings with owners when booking the examination, please try to protect yourself by tackling the issue in advance of turning up at the mooring.

Ask if the boat has a gas system, then find out whether the boat's use will put it in scope.  We suggest the following questions:

1. Is the boat hired out in the course of a business (This may include timeshare/shared-ownership boats where there is letting involved in some of the timeslots)?
2. Is the boat used primarily by anyone for domestic or residential purposes (In this matter, it makes no difference to you if it is owner-occupied or rented-out)?
3. Do you invite people on board your boat in the course of a business, e.g. is it a café or shop?

If the answer to any of the above questions is yes, then in order to carry out the BSS gas tightness test you will either have to use a fitted bubble tester, or observe a Gas Safe registered installer carrying out the test with a manometer. 

Even if the answer to all the questions above is 'no', you are recommended to make a brief record that you have asked the questions and received the negative answers

*NB. Remember that in the event the boat is a hire boat, third-party managed share-owned boat, trip boat, rented residential boat or floating business, you must also have been trained and assessed to the 2002 BSS requirements.

[jddevel]

53 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Not a 'mistake' just possibly not the best option for a liveaboard

It seems I did not interpret the threads direction properly. I`m not a liveaboard just leisure but following salt water boats/yacht and over 50 years of virtually annual holidays on narrowboats decided to own one. However like all walks of life I have discovered that experts, bureaucrats, technicians,engineers,law makers and obviously everyone involved in the world of canals has a view. Some views, some theories some as taught and then those through experience. However as in life it is difficult to the layman to recognize the difference between many of the above especially those who "talk the good talk".  I have a personal current example in my fit out. I suggested my battery wiring for balancing purposes be as per Smart Guages` advice to the marina "technician". He said no, in series, as everyone else does and confirmed this and it was agreed by the qualified narrowboat electrician the marina uses. This is a very large and well reviewed marina. Frustrated and wanting the work dealt with for craft use/BSS I said just go ahead. I realize some will say my money then my way. But it is something I can deal with later and you will have to believe me when I say I consider myself reasonably intelligent and practical but you will have to believe me when I say without going into detail under my circumstances I`m taking the currently (excuse pun) best way forward.

So if I fit a bubble tester it`s so I can "keep an eye" on potential early indications of a problem

[MtB]

1 hour ago, Athy said:

Where does the commonly used expression "gas fitter" come in? I would think that it's the equivalent of "gas technician" but I' not sure.

 

It doesn't come in any longer, the term is falling into disuse. We are now widely referred to in the building industry as 'gas engineers', as demonstrated by jddevel (a building developer) in his post 65:

"Not sure what your getting at. My gas safe engineer has  fitted a point at which he said a qualified engineer can test for gas leakage."

The term 'gas technician' is my own invention for what I do. Most proper engineers agree with me but I've never met a gas technician who agrees. I have never seen the term used anywhere other than here. Its a little crusade of mine, a futile attempt to hold back the tide.

Prior to being known as gas engineers we were known colloquially as 'gas fitters', and more formally 'gas installers'. 

[rusty69]

6 minutes ago, jddevel said:

He said no, in series, as everyone else does and confirmed this and it was agreed by the qualified narrowboat electrician the marina uses

Our are connected in parallel but they are 12V batteries on a 12V system. 

Edited September 3, 2017 by rusty69

[jddevel]

Now I want to take this in a slightly different direction and it may be in the wrong topic however it`s gas related. I`ve just ordered a Honda EU20i generator converted to LPG by a professional source. I propose to keep the gas bottle in the gas locker in the bow and am considering fitting the generator in a locker in the bow with a cable connection to the sterns electric cupboard. If this is OK what would the forum advise I should look out for?

[Alan de Enfield]

8 minutes ago, jddevel said:

He said no, in series, as everyone else does and confirmed this and it was agreed by the qualified narrowboat electrician the marina uses

 

4 minutes ago, rusty69 said:

Our are connected in parallel. 

Assuming you have not miss heard, and are not wiring up your boat for 24v you had better get out of that marina quickly and find a new electrician

 

[rusty69]

6 minutes ago, jddevel said:

Now I want to take this in a slightly different direction and it may be in the wrong topic however it`s gas related. I`ve just ordered a Honda EU20i generator converted to LPG by a professional source. I propose to keep the gas bottle in the gas locker in the bow and am considering fitting the generator in a locker in the bow with a cable connection to the sterns electric cupboard. If this is OK what would the forum advise I should look out for?

Read the manual and boat safety requirements very carefully. 

[MtB]

5 minutes ago, jddevel said:

Now I want to take this in a slightly different direction and it may be in the wrong topic however it`s gas related. I`ve just ordered a Honda EU20i generator converted to LPG by a professional source. I propose to keep the gas bottle in the gas locker in the bow and am considering fitting the generator in a locker in the bow with a cable connection to the sterns electric cupboard. If this is OK what would the forum advise I should look out for?

 

You will probably find the generator instruction manual specifically mandates against going this. I would get written advice from Honda on how to extend the exhaust and ensure the engine cooling and air supply are adequate too if I were your. 

Permanently installing a portable genny is an idea which occurs to boaters on a  regular basis as a genny actually designed to be permanently installed seems to cost about £4k, plus the installation work.

[Alan de Enfield]

13 minutes ago, jddevel said:

Now I want to take this in a slightly different direction and it may be in the wrong topic however it`s gas related. I`ve just ordered a Honda EU20i generator converted to LPG by a professional source. I propose to keep the gas bottle in the gas locker in the bow and am considering fitting the generator in a locker in the bow with a cable connection to the sterns electric cupboard. If this is OK what would the forum advise I should look out for?

 Where will it draw its air from ?

Where will the exhaust vent to ?
Can the exhaust gasses possibly blow back into the well deck and cabin ?

It is not an ideal position.

I was reading a 'warning document' only 2 day ago (In Lowestoft Marina) stating that portable generators must not be run on deck and only ever used 'on-shore'.

There was a couple on a boat killed (last year)  by O2 CO when the exhaust extension on their portable generator cracked

Edited September 3, 2017 by Alan de Enfield

[MtB]

1 minute ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

There was a couple on a boat killed (last year)  by O2 when the exhaust extension on their portable generator cracked

 

That seems a little unlikely.

CO was the cause IIRC.

[Alan de Enfield]

Just now, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

That seems a little unlikely.

CO was the cause IIRC.

Oooooooops !

 

[MtB]

The 'exhaust extension' cobbled up by the owner came off the engine and the boat cabin filled with exhaust gas, containing CO.

Just now, Alan de Enfield said:

Oooooooops !

 

 

A wide open goal!!!!!

[cuthound]

27 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

There was a couple on a boat killed (last year)  by O2

Maybe that hadn't paid their mobile phone bill? 

[MtB]

2 minutes ago, cuthound said:

Maybe that hadn't paid their mobile phone bill? 

 

Very droll.

Greenied!

[nicknorman]

57 minutes ago, jddevel said:

... the qualified narrowboat electrician the marina uses. 

As far as I'm aware, there is no recognised qualification for a narrowboat electrician. Of course this doesn't stop people describing themselves as "marine electrical engineers" etc. But be quite clear, anyone can do that, and therein lies the problem for someone like you.

On the subject of the genny, a friend had a gas (barbecue-type) connection fitted in the welldeck. He would put the lpg genny on the towpath and plug the pipe into this outlet. This seems to me to be the only sensible way to do it.