Gas connections

[cuthound]

11 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Yes totally agree this is the way to do it, but I suspect Honda would respond with a blank refusal to inspect and test your extended exhaust, unless you agree to cover their R&D costs. These would probably run to several tens of £k, if not more. 

They do to need to test of inspect it, (or at least non of the manufacturers ive been involved with have, providing you show detailed plans, backpressure calcs etc and use a professional company with experience of installing generators to undertake the installation. 

Certainly won't cost 10's of £k to put plans in for approval, maybe £1k. Installation would probably be another £1k.

[MtB]

1 minute ago, cuthound said:

They do to need to test of inspect it, (or at least non of the manufacturers ive been involved with have, providing you show detailed plans, backpressure calcs etc and use a professional company with experience of installing generators to undertake the installation. 

Certainly won't cost 10's of £k to put plans in for approval, maybe £1k. Installation would probably be another £1k.

 

You've been involved with custom alterations that need manufacturer approval for a BSS pass?

I suspect Honda would see no upside for them in approving an exhaust extension design other than perhaps one generator sale. And a considerable downside for them should there be an incident for which they are held responsible, for approving the mod.

Consequently I think they are highly likely to 'just say no'. 

[cuthound]

1 minute ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

You've been involved with custom alterations that need manufacturer approval for a BSS pass?

I suspect Honda would see no upside for them in approving an exhaust extension design other than perhaps one generator sale. And a considerable downside for them should there be an incident for which they are held responsible, for approving the mod.

Consequently I think they are highly likely to 'just say no'. 

Not for a BSS pass, but to meet approval of local authorities (London section 20 building regs being more onerous than anywhere else in the country),  or specific client requirements.

The engineering company making the mods become responsible for their design, provided it has been approved by Honda, in much the same way that after market modifications on cars are usually approved by the manufacturer, but responsibility remains with the modifier for their future performance. 

[Alan de Enfield]

9 minutes ago, cuthound said:

They do to need to test of inspect it, (or at least non of the manufacturers ive been involved with have, providing you show detailed plans, backpressure calcs etc and use a professional company with experience of installing generators to undertake the installation. 

Certainly won't cost 10's of £k to put plans in for approval, maybe £1k. Installation would probably be another £1k.

So you pay :

£2000 for the generator

£500 for a gas convesion

£1000 to have someone design a new exhaust system (with all calcs for back pressure etc)

£1000 to Honda for approval

£xxx ? to fabricate new exhaust system

£1000 to a professional generator installer

 

It looks to a simpleton like myself that that you are almost better off having a 'marine generator' installed giving 4x the output of the Honda.

[WotEver]

36 minutes ago, cuthound said:

... a car which is designed to be in high speed accidents...

They undoubtedly get involved in high speed accidents but I don't think the manufacturers actually design them to be...

[cuthound]

Just now, Alan de Enfield said:

So you pay :

£2000 for the generator

£500 for a gas convesion

£1000 to have someone design a new exhaust system (with all calcs for back pressure etc)

£1000 to Honda for approval

£xxx ? to fabricate new exhaust system

£1000 to a professional generator installer

 

It looks to a simpleton like myself that that you are almost better off having a 'marine generator' installed giving 4x the output of the Honda.

Yup, and that why the "quiet marine gemerators" cost so much, there is no real competition.

It would be interesting to approach a standard day generator manufacture in the UK, give them a spec for something similar to the Betagen silenced set in terms of output and noise, and see how much they would charge.

2 minutes ago, WotEver said:

They undoubtedly get involved in high speed accidents but I don't think the manufacturers actually design them to be...

 Pedant, you knew what I meant 

[Alan de Enfield]

8 minutes ago, cuthound said:

Yup, and that why the "quiet marine gemerators" cost so much, there is no real competition.

Not one of the best but £4000 + VAT for 4kva 

 

https://www.advanceyacht.co.uk/marine-generators-paguro/paguro-4-sy?gclid=Cj0KCQjw0K7NBRC7ARIsAEaqLRF49XmE0AI1E8CP1MqMGqRen19SFF07ZvuFn9ltXNobVqdAmhOR_0caAuuSEALw_wcB

[cuthound]

2 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Not one of the best but £4000 + VAT for 4kva 

 

https://www.advanceyacht.co.uk/marine-generators-paguro/paguro-4-sy?gclid=Cj0KCQjw0K7NBRC7ARIsAEaqLRF49XmE0AI1E8CP1MqMGqRen19SFF07ZvuFn9ltXNobVqdAmhOR_0caAuuSEALw_wcB

Quite noisy for an encapsulated genet at 53dBA atb7 metres, about the same as an unenapsulated Honda 2kVA set, but has a Yanmar diesel engine, say £6-7k fitted.

[WotEver]

28 minutes ago, cuthound said:

Quite noisy for an encapsulated genet at 53dBA atb7 metres, about the same as an unenapsulated Honda 2kVA set

Yup, exactly what I was thinking. I remember seeing a cocooned Beta engine at Crick a few years back. I couldn't hear it running. I'd expect similar from a built-in genny but maybe that's why it's only £4k. 

[MtB]

2 minutes ago, WotEver said:

Yup, exactly what I was thinking. I remember seeing a cocooned Beta engine at Crick a few years back. I couldn't hear it running. I'd expect similar from a built-in genny but maybe that's why it's only £4k. 

 

I see from the pics it is air cooled, not water cooled as the previous model was. This will be why it is noisy.

[jddevel]

1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Then be 'surprised

But my thoughts are that the cylinder is stored in the dedicated gas locker which must be suitable for the on board appliances-in my case cooker. It`s only the generator which being converted to LPG that`s portable and never even has any residual gas in it if the cylinder is turned off to stop the generators operation which I believe would be good practice. But I could stand corrected

[jddevel]

1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

£2000 for the generator

£500 for a gas convesion

In my case £1199 for a converted new EUHondai converted to LPG and I quote from their website

"We are dealers for a wide range of well know quality brand names such as Honda" plus

"and any warranty repairs for all of the equipment that we supply."

I`m NOT a live aboard as frequently stated and therefore unless assisting other occupants  on the site feel 4Kva is  a bit over the top.

[Alan de Enfield]

8 minutes ago, jddevel said:

But my thoughts are that the cylinder is stored in the dedicated gas locker which must be suitable for the on board appliances-in my case cooker. It`s only the generator which being converted to LPG that`s portable and never even has any residual gas in it if the cylinder is turned off to stop the generators operation which I believe would be good practice. But I could stand corrected

Following your suggestion that storing gas was safer than storing petrol, I was simply pointing out that in the eyes of the BSS, the storage requirements are identical.

The ‘issue’ is your proposal to use the generator on board and several of us have suggested that ‘mackling up’ an exhaust to add to a generator not designed to have an exhaust extension is potentially not only a BSS failure, but a proven life threatening modification.

 

If you don’t want to, or are unable to, lift a generator onto the bank-side, then you should give serious consideration to waiting and fitting a ‘built in’ generator.

There is another thread ‘ongoing’ where the OP would rather spend £5000 on a toilet and ‘put-off’ buying a suitable generator.

Its your boat, its your (families) life, its your choice, we are just pointing out the potential problems and requirements.

[cuthound]

35 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

I see from the pics it is air cooled, not water cooled as the previous model was. This will be why it is noisy.

It says it "features twin circuit cooling". Is that not water cooled? 

 

Edit, oh I see from the last picture it has exposed pipes as a heat exchanger. 

Edited September 3, 2017 by cuthound

[MtB]

3 hours ago, cuthound said:

It says it "features twin circuit cooling". Is that not water cooled? 

 

Edit, oh I see from the last picture it has exposed pipes as a heat exchanger. 

 

Well yes 'air cooled' was the wrong term. It does not have fins on the cylinder. It is actually water cooled with the water being pumped through an air cooled radiator inside the big white case, judging by the photos. This means there must be a dirty great hole in the white case to let the airflow in (and out) to the radiator through which noise will escape in spades. 

[Phil Ambrose]

On ‎01‎/‎09‎/‎2017 at 17:01, Steve@iwabss-limited.co.uk said:

Ahh. Well there you go! The expert amateur shoots his other foot off. 

As as much as I like this sort of sport, it gets rather tiresome after a while. 

Education ....... The GI(US)P also known in the trade by Bona Fide Gas Engineers (which you aren't) as L56, is the Gas Installation (Unsafe Situations) Procedures. 

That is what Gas Engineers are guided by when we come to a boat that has been 'cobbled together' by a well meaning expert amateur when we Disconnect the supply, issue a warning notice, if necessary report the issue to the HSE and then walk away, content in the knowledge that we have strengthened the gene pool by prolonging its population by one (at least) amateur expert to help all us qualified guys out! 

Done with you now, only to offer one last bit of advice (which you are bound to ignore).......

Never, ever, enter into a battle of wits with someone when you are so obviously half armed!

you will get that in a bit  

TTFN!

 

 

your last comment is rather trite and shows that you are a man not to be trusted. 

You have no idea of the collective knowledge of members of this forum, I for one was heavily involved in making the first artificial heart valves, Concorde flew courtesy of my work and I did not make silicon chips, I did the clever stuff and made the  machines that made the chips.

There may well be idiot or two about but for the  main part the members here are pretty smart.

Phil

[jddevel]

4 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

The ‘issue’ is your proposal to use the generator on board and several of us have suggested that ‘mackling up’ an exhaust to add

I`m afraid by not making myself clear you have made assumptions that are untrue. I stated that the generator could be FITTED in a purpose built locker when what I actually meant was it could be STORED in a purpose made secure locker. It would be removed or the locker partially dissembled when in use. Obviously to allow for the dispersal of toxic fumes and a supply of air for combustion. What I had not thought of but was kindly pointed out was that the proximity of an opening into the vessels interior under certain weather conditions could result in those toxic fumes entering the interior. Hence my comment in post 112.

[Alan de Enfield]

9 hours ago, jddevel said:

.........locker partially dissembled when in use.

This is the 'killer'.