Gas connections

[MtB]

6 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

 

On the subject of the genny, a friend had a gas (barbecue-type) connection fitted in the welldeck. He would put the lpg genny on the towpath and plug the pipe into this outlet. This seems to me to be the only sensible way to do it.

 

I suspect that might have been a separate standalone gas installation, separate from the domestic gas that is. I investigated running a genny many years ago from the 37mb gas service and at the time it could not be done IIRC. The regulator in a genny conversion kit runs at a higher gas pressure than 37mb, or did on conversions at the time.

Did he happen to say?

[Dylan]

3 hours ago, rusty69 said:

Is a monammeter used for measuring current flow in French rivers ? 

Very good! I make silly mistake about manmeter  I dont ave girlfiend to type me now as she sleap with gas enginear. I laugh on other side of head now as Enlish like to say! I get new girl soon on net. I get one who can type me good.

[jddevel]

So it is both not good practice and indeed possibly a definite hazard to run the generator in the foredeck. Even if whilst stored in a locker there it was placed outside that locker whilst in use? My Permanent mooring -not where work to complete the craft is taking place- has no shore supply so it will be used as necessary and within the local club rules. (yet to be ascertained on the subject). or whilst cruising and say on a bankside mooring for a couple of days. It was seeing how I could avoid having to lift the bottle and generator off the boat and running the cable aboard where as a 240 volt connection point could be fitted in the bow for generation purposes. One will be in the stern via the IT transformer.

1 minute ago, Dylan said:

 I get one who can type me good.

Why worry about typing if they look as good as those in the pictures from Russia etc I sometimes get!!! Mind you my wife would probably require a male one Mmmm.

[nicknorman]

26 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

I suspect that might have been a separate standalone gas installation, separate from the domestic gas that is. I investigated running a genny many years ago from the 37mb gas service and at the time it could not be done IIRC. The regulator in a genny conversion kit runs at a higher gas pressure than 37mb, or did on conversions at the time.

Did he happen to say?

Nor sure. The boat is Sarah Kay, the one being advertised for £180k. If a higher pressure were required, surely this could be achieved by fitting a second regulator with higher pressure onto the same gas bottle supply as the domestic one (inside the gas locker). Or if for some reason that was not acceptable, having one bottle for domestic use and the other bottle via its dedicated regulator, for the genny. This means the gas bottle remains in the locker and one doesn't have to eg run a pipe from the bottle via an open gas locker lid. I am presuming the genny can be made to run from gaseous lpg and doesn't require a liquid feed as fork lift trucks etc do?

[MtB]

35 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

Nor sure. The boat is Sarah Kay, the one being advertised for £180k. If a higher pressure were required, surely this could be achieved by fitting a second regulator with higher pressure onto the same gas bottle supply as the domestic one (inside the gas locker). 

 

Technically yes it could, but this would make a nervous BSS inspector (e.g. the one who popped up earlier in this thread) have a complete meltdown.

A second bottle in the gas locker with a 'leisure' bayonet connector would be fine provided the (higher pressure) regulator is on the bottle, not at the genny end.  Even then, the bayonet will be running at higher than design pressure so might get failed. 

Genny adaptor kits don't take a liquid supply. If the did, different i.e. horizontal LPG bottles would be needed. 

All this pre-supposes genny kits all run at more than 37mb, a point on which I am unsure. 

Edited September 3, 2017 by Mike the Boilerman

[Boredrider]

12 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

All this pre-supposes genny kits all run at more than 37mb, a point on which I am unsure. 

I have recently converted a Honda Eu 2.0i to run on LPG, using a kit from Edge Technology   The regulator supplied with the kit is 37 mbar.

[MtB]

16 minutes ago, Boredrider said:

I have recently converted a Honda Eu 2.0i to run on LPG, using a kit from Edge Technology   The regulator supplied with the kit is 37 mbar.

 

Thanks, that's helpful info.

So provided the whole gas installation (pipework, regulator etc) is sized to suit the genny and all the other gas appliances together, a leisure bayonet fitting CAN be connected to the existing gas system.

Assuming the genny engine runs at about 30% efficiency and the leccy generation side of it is over about 80%, the whole thing will be drawing about 7kW from the gas supply. A little more than a Morco running at full chat.  

[jddevel]

1 hour ago, Boredrider said:

I have recently converted a Honda Eu 2.0i to run on LPG, using a kit from Edge Technology   The regulator supplied with the kit is 37 mbar.

Mines being done by someone who offers the 5 year after sales guarantee which I`m lead to believe may be "queried" by Honda if ancillaries have been added not of Honda manufacture and standard

[Alan de Enfield]

3 hours ago, jddevel said:

 It was seeing how I could avoid having to lift the bottle and generator off the boat and running the cable aboard where as a 240 volt connection point could be fitted in the bow for generation purposes. One will be in the stern via the IT transformer.

 

You can have a fully BSSC system even leaving the gas bottle in the boat.

Simply have a bayonet and a length of pipe to the bank-side and connect up your Jennifer.

 

From the BSS :

Portable appliances :

All portable appliance connection points must be  fitted with an isolation valve

All hose connections to the isolation valves of portable appliances  must be made with a bayonet, plug‐in or screwed fitting. 
 
All bayonet, plug‐in or screwed fittings must not be missing any  components and must be free of corrosion, signs of damage or  deterioration. 

[jddevel]

4 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

ou can have a fully BSSC system even leaving the gas bottle in the boat.

Simply have a bayonet and a length of pipe to the bank-side and connect up your Jennifer.

So what is the reasoning behind the generator not being able to remain on the vessel. My " off the cuff" thought is a say collapsible container that doubles as for example a seat/step to aid boarding in which the generator is normally stored and connected to the gas locker cylinder. When in use then say side and top are removed? 

[nicknorman]

11 minutes ago, jddevel said:

So what is the reasoning behind the generator not being able to remain on the vessel. My " off the cuff" thought is a say collapsible container that doubles as for example a seat/step to aid boarding in which the generator is normally stored and connected to the gas locker cylinder. When in use then say side and top are removed? 

If it's not a petrol genny, then that is one less concern. But gennies emit CO which is of course insidiously toxic to the point of being fatal. If you run the genny on the boat eg in the well deck, you can be pretty sure that at some point you or someone else will leave the doors open and a light breeze in a certain direction will bring CO into your boat. You do see people running gennies on boats, you also hear of people dying or becoming very ill as a result of it. In terms of the overall hazard/risk, it's a much higher risk than say not having an RCD.

[jddevel]

2 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

But gennies emit CO which is of course insidiously toxic to the point of being fatal.

Valid point and understood.

[cuthound]

One way to minimise the CO problem with a petrol genie ilocated in the well deck would be to take the exhaust above roof level.

[alan_fincher]

3 minutes ago, cuthound said:

One way to minimise the CO problem with a petrol genie ilocated in the well deck would be to take the exhaust above roof level.

Isn't the main point though that very few portable generators are designed to have the exhaust modified or lengthened in any way.

I am staggered by the number of generators I see running on fore decks, rear decks and even in the "cratch" spaces of canal boats, (or even worse!).  It always seems to me that those doing it may due to unexpected circumstances end up being considered for a Darwin award.

[cuthound]

4 minutes ago, alan_fincher said:

Isn't the main point though that very few portable generators are designed to have the exhaust modified or lengthened in any way.

I am staggered by the number of generators I see running on fore decks, rear decks and even in the "cratch" spaces of canal boats, (or even worse!).  It always seems to me that those doing it may due to unexpected circumstances end up being considered for a Darwin award.

Yes, but as someone who has project managed the installation of hundreds of standby generators,  I cannot see that it would difficult for a robust solution to be engineered.

[alan_fincher]

1 minute ago, cuthound said:

Yes, but as someone who has project managed the installation of hundreds of standby generators,  I cannot see that it would difficult for a robust solution to be engineered.

In some form or another, portable generators seem to me to be probably one of the biggest causes of serious mishap, (and sometimes serious injury or death), aboard boats.

Personally I don't think I would want to have a petrol powered generator anywhere on board, even if not running, other than in a secure locker vented overboard.

I would suggest there have been many serious refuelling incidents.  In my mind, any attempt to place one on board, coupled up in some way to a modified / extended exhaust system, would make it even more likely that people attempted to refuel on the boat, rather than on the bank.

I have regularly seen people trying to add petrol to the tanks of their running generators, actually on board their boats.

It is hardly surprising there are so many incidents, given people's apparent propensity for attempted self destruction.

[cuthound]

6 minutes ago, alan_fincher said:

In some form or another, portable generators seem to me to be probably one of the biggest causes of serious mishap, (and sometimes serious injury or death), aboard boats.

Personally I don't think I would want to have a petrol powered generator anywhere on board, even if not running, other than in a secure locker vented overboard.

I would suggest there have been many serious refuelling incidents.  In my mind, any attempt to place one on board, coupled up in some way to a modified / extended exhaust system, would make it even more likely that people attempted to refuel on the boat, rather than on the bank.

I have regularly seen people trying to add petrol to the tanks of their running generators, actually on board their boats.

It is hardly surprising there are so many incidents, given people's apparent propensity for attempted self destruction.

All of the above risks except operator stupidity can be minimised by good engineering practice.

I agree any petrol or gas powered generator permanently mounted in a boat should be in a dedicated compartment which vents overboard, allows adequate air for engine aspiration and cooling, and ensures that the exhaust fumes cannot enter the cabin.

[MtB]

11 minutes ago, alan_fincher said:

In some form or another, portable generators seem to me to be probably one of the biggest causes of serious mishap, (and sometimes serious injury or death), aboard boats.

Personally I don't think I would want to have a petrol powered generator anywhere on board, even if not running, other than in a secure locker vented overboard.

I would suggest there have been many serious refuelling incidents.  In my mind, any attempt to place one on board, coupled up in some way to a modified / extended exhaust system, would make it even more likely that people attempted to refuel on the boat, rather than on the bank.

I have regularly seen people trying to add petrol to the tanks of their running generators, actually on board their boats.

It is hardly surprising there are so many incidents, given people's apparent propensity for attempted self destruction.

 

Do you have a source of stats for your assertion there are "so many incidents" Alan? My perception is there are surprisingly few.

Given the frequency with which people on here come up with the idea of 'installing' a portable genny on the boat, I think it must be a widespread practice out there once you include the many 1,000s of boaters rather than just the 100 or so who post here. 

[jddevel]

12 minutes ago, alan_fincher said:

Personally I don't think I would want to have a petrol powered generator anywhere on board,

When commenting in this topic I specifically referred to a LPG converted generator based on recommendations and the increased safety over petrol ones. I realize it too gives off carbon monoxide but the handling and storage is in my opinion safer

[Alan de Enfield]

1 minute ago, jddevel said:

LPG converted generator based on recommendations and the increased safety over petrol ones. I realize it too gives off carbon monoxide but the handling and storage is in my opinion safer

I am not sure I would agree with this- they are certainly both treated  in much the same way for the BSS

[jddevel]

1 minute ago, Alan de Enfield said:

I am not sure I would agree with this- they are certainly both treated  in much the same way for the BSS

I must say I`m surprised at this comment.

[MtB]

I would expect a portably genny permanently installed to fail a BSS regardless of how high the standard of the engineering. 

Appliances have to be installed in compliance with the installation instructions, and you won't find any for a EU20i.

[cuthound]

1 minute ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

I would expect a portably genny permanently installed to fail a BSS regardless of how high the standard of the engineering. 

Appliances have to be installed in compliance with the installation instructions, and you won't find any for a EU20i.

You may well be correct, the BSS makes some strange decions, for example not allowing the original manufacturers plastic spill pipes on automotive based diesel engines, when they are clearly more at risk in a car which is designed to be in high speed accidents, unlike a boat.

In thevreal world you would submit your proposals for the installation to the manufactuer for approval, but I'm not sure whether this would meet the BSS requirements.

[MtB]

3 minutes ago, cuthound said:

You may well be correct, the BSS makes some strange decions, for example not allowing the original manufacturers plastic spill pipes on automotive based diesel engines, when they are clearly more at risk in a car which is designed to be in high speed accidents, unlike a boat.

In thevreal world you would submit your proposals for the installation to the manufactuer for approval, but I'm not sure whether this would meet the BSS requirements.

 

Yes totally agree this is the way to do it, but I suspect Honda would respond with a blank refusal to inspect and test your extended exhaust, unless you agree to cover their R&D costs. These would probably run to several tens of £k, if not more. 

[Alan de Enfield]

10 minutes ago, jddevel said:

I must say I`m surprised at this comment.

Then be 'surprised ' - BSS Section 5:2:2

BSS storage requirements for petrol :

Portable petrol tanks which are not connected to the engine must be  stored in the open where any leaked petrol would flow overboard  unimpeded, or in a suitable locker. 
 
Any locker used to store portable petrol tanks must be: 
 
•  drained to the outside of the hull from, at, or close to the bottom of  the locker; and, 
 
•  secure and constructed of a material of the required thickness, in  good condition; and, 
 
•  free from objects that could block the drain, damage the petrol tank  or cause petrol vapour to ignite; and, 
 
•  fuel‐tight to an equal or greater height that the top of the cap for the  petrol tank; and, 
 
•  self‐draining and the drain hole must have a minimum internal  diameter of 12mm (½in) and must not be blocked; and, 
 
The locker must not open into any engine, battery or electrical  equipment space. 
 
The drain line material including connections must be complete and in  good condition.

NOTE ‐ these are identical storage arrangements for LPG cylinders the detail of which is to be found in  Part 7 sections 7.1–7.5.