What is the purpose of these gates?

[X Alan W]

18 hours ago, dor said:

Not sure Mike.  They do  seem to 'float' so probably wouldn't take much flow to get them to close.  Once they started then they would pick up the current.  Perhaps someone on the T&M might have a better understanding.

Have no idea about now, but back in the 60's most were chained & locked in the open position, the nowadays lack of lengths men/ lock keepers probably means a longer time period to get to in case of a breach. I do wonder about them being free to close by water flow & the fact of passage of boats with the problem they could be drawn closed & with not much showing above water a collision waiting to happen, + the local "yoof"would possibly enjoy causing problems by closing them if they were free to be able to do so.For the same reasons Stop Planks were kept in their special containers & kept locked.

[AMModels]

Theres a set at Wolverhampton boat club under the footbridge, one each side of the canal hinged at opposite ends so that each gate would stop the flow depending which side the breach was.

[Drayke]

Lots of them on the K&A but none look to be operational.

[colmac]

Aa you approach Norbury junction from the south there is a narrow bit with a gate and a wee hut beside this. The hut is now all boarded up, however, according to Nicholsons this gate was closed every evening during WW2 by a wee man on a byke for the reasons as stated, i.e. a breach in cut due to enemy action.  Mind you, I would imagine the bomb aiming chappie would need to be very good to hit a narrow stretch of water from several thousand feet up in the sky.

[ditchcrawler]

Here is a nice new set on the Bridgewater canal

[AMModels]

11 hours ago, colmac said:

Aa you approach Norbury junction from the south there is a narrow bit with a gate and a wee hut beside this. The hut is now all boarded up, however, according to Nicholsons this gate was closed every evening during WW2 by a wee man on a byke for the reasons as stated, i.e. a breach in cut due to enemy action.  Mind you, I would imagine the bomb aiming chappie would need to be very good to hit a narrow stretch of water from several thousand feet up in the sky.

I think thats close to where the little road passes under the canal on the embankment, the height of the embankment around there shows just how damaging a breach would have been.

They tended to drop bombs in the hundreds if not thousands so you only need one of them to hit or get close, also bombers which were damaged dropped to a lower level and would jettison their bombs on any target of opportunity, a lovely moonlit ribbon of water is easy to follow and drop bombs along its length too.

[colmac]

11 hours ago, AMModels said:

I think thats close to where the little road passes under the canal on the embankment, the height of the embankment around there shows just how damaging a breach would have been.

They tended to drop bombs in the hundreds if not thousands so you only need one of them to hit or get close, also bombers which were damaged dropped to a lower level and would jettison their bombs on any target of opportunity, a lovely moonlit ribbon of water is easy to follow and drop bombs along its length too.

Yes I suppose that would work. I grew up in the shadow of the Forth railway bridge and was often told the stories of the Germans trying to bomb the bridge for obvious tactical reasons. They never managed to hit it though. Mind you, having flown over it many time on approach to Edinburgh I can see why.

[magpie patrick]

23 hours ago, colmac said:

Aa you approach Norbury junction from the south there is a narrow bit with a gate and a wee hut beside this. The hut is now all boarded up, however, according to Nicholsons this gate was closed every evening during WW2 by a wee man on a byke for the reasons as stated, i.e. a breach in cut due to enemy action.  Mind you, I would imagine the bomb aiming chappie would need to be very good to hit a narrow stretch of water from several thousand feet up in the sky.

Totterdown lock in Bristol was filled in casr it was hit by a bomb aimed at Temple Meads Station. They weren't necessarily aiming at the canal: this is Banbury lock after a bomb hit it.

[furnessvale]

13 hours ago, AMModels said:

I think thats close to where the little road passes under the canal on the embankment, the height of the embankment around there shows just how damaging a breach would have been.

They tended to drop bombs in the hundreds if not thousands so you only need one of them to hit or get close, also bombers which were damaged dropped to a lower level and would jettison their bombs on any target of opportunity, a lovely moonlit ribbon of water is easy to follow and drop bombs along its length too.

Sounds easy enough but I recall a figure of 2,  or perhaps 5, miles as the average "on target" bomb aiming during WWII.

Even in the Falklands, to be sure of hitting the runway at Stanley, the Vulcan sent to bomb it straddled the runway at 90 degrees rather than running long its length to be sure of getting one bomb on target!

George

[RLWP]

21 minutes ago, furnessvale said:

Even in the Falklands, to be sure of hitting the runway at Stanley, the Vulcan sent to bomb it straddled the runway at 90 degrees rather than running long its length to be sure of getting one bomb on target!

George

I think you have your angle wrong. If they bombed at 90 degrees he would be passing across the width

Thirty degrees looks about right:

Richard

https://canalrivertrust.org.uk/news-and-views/blogs/heritage-team/safeguarding-london-in-wartime-air-raid-protection-gates

Richard

[furnessvale]

22 minutes ago, RLWP said:

I think you have your angle wrong. If they bombed at 90 degrees he would be passing across the width

Thirty degrees looks about right:

Richard

 

Fair enough.  I had read that they didn't bomb down the length of the runway which the photo demonstrates.  Maybe I, or someone else, added the 90 degrees mentally (in the 1980s).

I wonder if modern smart bombs would make a difference.  We often see scenes of 100% accuracy but do we get shown the misses?  After all, WWII had some spectacular successes like the Turpitz and Bielefeld viaduct.

George

[RLWP]

7 minutes ago, furnessvale said:

We often see scenes of 100% accuracy but do we get shown the misses?

George

I very much doubt it!

I was surprised it was as wide as 30 degrees, I was expecting a much shallower angle. Looks like only one did any significant damage. Mind you, one was all they needed

Richard

[mark99]

11 minutes ago, RLWP said:

I very much doubt it!

I was surprised it was as wide as 30 degrees, I was expecting a much shallower angle. Looks like only one did any significant damage. Mind you, one was all they needed

Richard

One was the damage and the rest were piles of rubble left for backfilling runway quickly by those thoughtfull Germans.

Edited July 16, 2017 by mark99

[RLWP]

6 minutes ago, mark99 said:

One was the damage and the rest were piles of rubble left for backfilling runway quickly by those thoughtfull Germans.

I think you might be a couple of wars out

Richard

[furnessvale]

14 minutes ago, RLWP said:

I think you might be a couple of wars out

Richard

Maybe it was those who escaped to Argentina after WWII.

George

[mark99]

2 hours ago, RLWP said:

I think you might be a couple of wars out

Richard

lol true!

 

Did not read the previous stuff. Black and white image caught me out. 

Edited July 16, 2017 by mark99

[AMModels]

3 hours ago, furnessvale said:

Sounds easy enough but I recall a figure of 2,  or perhaps 5, miles as the average "on target" bomb aiming during WWII.

Even in the Falklands, to be sure of hitting the runway at Stanley, the Vulcan sent to bomb it straddled the runway at 90 degrees rather than running long its length to be sure of getting one bomb on target!

George

ah but the vulcan was a single bomber dropping just 21 bombs on its run. The Germans sent over 50+ bombers on a trip, used the bomb master system and also the radio beams to guide their bombers on target. I would imagine any bombs dropped on canals out of the cities would be by a damaged bomber from low level as I described looking for targets of opportunity and any within a city would be multiple bombers dropping on factories in general with canal hits being collateral damage, none the less effective for that.

[AMModels]

3 hours ago, furnessvale said:

Fair enough.  I had read that they didn't bomb down the length of the runway which the photo demonstrates.  Maybe I, or someone else, added the 90 degrees mentally (in the 1980s).

I wonder if modern smart bombs would make a difference.  We often see scenes of 100% accuracy but do we get shown the misses?  After all, WWII had some spectacular successes like the Turpitz and Bielefeld viaduct.

George

Smart bombs definitely but they rely on a second aircraft 'painting' the target with lasers to guide in the munitions, in Iraq Tornadoes carried the bombs and Buccaneers did the target selection guidance bits, most bombs being 'dumb' bombs converted with JDAM kits into smart munitions. The JDAM kits were the fins and adjustable fiddly bits at the end to enable the bomb to steer itself down the laser beam onto the target. In some cases the SAS or other special forces did the laser guiding from the ground, Im sure it sounds more dangerous than was..... 

 

[Theonlymalewhodoesthelocks]

I saw one of these in Birmingham suburbs under a bridge I was wondering the same

[Derek R.]

On 16/07/2017 at 15:09, AMModels said:

Smart bombs definitely but they rely on a second aircraft 'painting' the target with lasers to guide in the munitions, in Iraq Tornadoes carried the bombs and Buccaneers did the target selection guidance bits, most bombs being 'dumb' bombs converted with JDAM kits into smart munitions. The JDAM kits were the fins and adjustable fiddly bits at the end to enable the bomb to steer itself down the laser beam onto the target. In some cases the SAS or other special forces did the laser guiding from the ground, Im sure it sounds more dangerous than was..... 

 

I think some of that guidance - even deployment of laser guided missiles - is now done from drones guided from an air base in Texas.