Am I Stupid? (lenghtening a 70' x 12' widebeam)

[widebeamboy]

Slightly rhetorical question.........looking for the pro's and cons of lengthening an already long and fat boat. Currently it is 70x12 cruiser stern Viking canal boat.

 

We love the boat, its fit out, its interior style and design however with a wife and two greyhounds and possible family addition(s) it isn't what we are going to want in relation to internal size inside.

 

Backstory. Live in a marina on a residential mooring. I can put a maximum length up to 29m (limited by the size of the sealock). We hardly ever take it out. Twice in the 14 months we have owned it and only for a trip up and down the river, no overnight mooring. This isn't likely to change a lot in the imminent future.

 

Pro's:

- we get a boat that already love extended to accommodate the extra space

- we know all of the onboard systems and so are not getting anything "unknown" in relation to electrics, plumbing and the such like

- possibly cheaper in long run than buying a dutch and refitting it

- once the steel work is done the rest is relatively "simple" (extending plumbing and circuits and the such like)

- who knows what it will do to resale value?

 

Con's:

- never going to be able to utilise it on the canals/local rivers other than the Thames

- possibly underpowered (beta 75) on the Thames

- Finding a location to do the work will most likely need to be on the Thames and it will need sailing to and from - see above in relation to power, although could possibly be towed.

- might look ugly (there is one in South Dock that does look "weird" to say the least)

- who knows what it will do to resale value?

- possible upgrade on some systems such as the existing Webasto heater and standard pumps

 

Am open to abuse and ridicule as well as some sensible input at the same time.

ps reason am considering it is that most of what I am seeing in the Dutch barge market is longer in length however not in practical space (usually due to location of engine and wheel houses) or they don't have the big light windows that give our boat such a nice feeling when in the water.

[Alan de Enfield]

I cannot comprehend any sane person buying a 70x12 'night-soil barge' with a lid on.

[Athy]

As you're obviously seeing the boat as a long-term family home, the resale value is perhaps not important. As you'll be living on the inside of it, its external appearance may not be of great importance either.

Stupid? No. Mad? Possibly!

[cereal tiller]

Slightly rhetorical question.........looking for the pro's and cons of lengthening an already long and fat boat. Currently it is 70x12 cruiser stern Viking canal boat.

 

We love the boat, its fit out, its interior style and design however with a wife and two greyhounds and possible family addition(s) it isn't what we are going to want in relation to internal size inside.

 

Backstory. Live in a marina on a residential mooring. I can put a maximum length up to 29m (limited by the size of the sealock). We hardly ever take it out. Twice in the 14 months we have owned it and only for a trip up and down the river, no overnight mooring. This isn't likely to change a lot in the imminent future.

 

Pro's:

- we get a boat that already love extended to accommodate the extra space

- we know all of the onboard systems and so are not getting anything "unknown" in relation to electrics, plumbing and the such like

- possibly cheaper in long run than buying a dutch and refitting it

- once the steel work is done the rest is relatively "simple" (extending plumbing and circuits and the such like)

- who knows what it will do to resale value?

 

Con's:

- never going to be able to utilise it on the canals/local rivers other than the Thames

- possibly underpowered (beta 75) on the Thames

- Finding a location to do the work will most likely need to be on the Thames and it will need sailing to and from - see above in relation to power, although could possibly be towed.

- might look ugly (there is one in South Dock that does look "weird" to say the least)

- who knows what it will do to resale value?

- possible upgrade on some systems such as the existing Webasto heater and standard pumps

 

Am open to abuse and ridicule as well as some sensible input at the same time.

ps reason am considering it is that most of what I am seeing in the Dutch barge market is longer in length however not in practical space (usually due to location of engine and wheel houses) or they don't have the big light windows that give our boat such a nice feeling when in the water.

Have you considered an Upper Deck which could be folded down if necessary?

 

CT

[Martin Megson]

I would expect the resale value to drop as it would only be suitable for marina living

[The Bagdad Boatman (waits)]

Look at a wheelhouse convertion. Extend and be carful to watch the tides and river flow if you go out.

[widebeamboy]

Ace, some interesting input.

 

Had to Google night soil however lots of people by 70x12 boats and it is on a central London location and you'd really be surprised what people buy as many are buying barges for homes and not for moving (all of the 5 massive barges that I am moored with have not moved in the 12months they have been on their moorings).

 

If I sold it as is on its marina mooring it has already increased approx. 75% over what I paid for it (less admin fees and all that malarkey) to someone who wants a residential home with of course the option to cruise. Its possible that extending it would impact this value as the cruising option would be removed and I may be mad to consider it. Whilst ive no intention to sell early I wouldn't want to completely throw money away.

 

Had considered both wheel house and an upper deck. Neither would really give me the extra insulated rooms I want and may potentially make the boat more unstable when moving around the rooms and make it sway like a narrowboat.

 

External appearance is of some value to us as who wants to live on the really ugly boat (there are some contenders so I doubt I win that competition as it would be done professionally and just be a stretch so to speak)

[Alan de Enfield]

There was also a small stretch of the Thames near Blackfriars, known as Dung Wharf, where manure and sewage was collected to be sent to London’s market gardens. The vast majority of which lay close to the riverbanks and were fertilized by London’s night soil sent down on barges which then returned full of foodstuff for the London market.

[Athy]

I wouldn't have liked to live downwind of Preston Canal Wharf, nor of Mr. Henry Ashcroft for that matter. I wonder if it was all his.

[Alan de Enfield]

I wouldn't have liked to live downwind of Preston Canal Wharf, nor of Mr. Henry Ashcroft for that matter. I wonder if it was all his.

 

A few years (I use the term 'few' but .........) during my Electrical Engineering studies we had to visit a local Sewage works, who from the methane, generated electricity and fed it back into the grid (this was about 50 years before the current solar 'fad' of feeding the grid).

 

Part of the sewage workers income was derived from selling water-melons and tomatoes that were grown in the 'cake' that was spread on the fields and allowed to dry before being sold as fertiliser. Unexpectedly here was no smell.

 

At the end of the tour the manager proudly stated - "It may be shit to you, but, to me it is bread & butter".

 

* The Tomatoes and Melons were 'second-hand' having already passed at least once thru one alimentary canal (they are not digested by the human system)

[magictime]

Sorry, but I can't get away from the basic question... if you want to live in something that's the size of a house, if you're happy for it to be fixed in one place like a house, if you own an asset with a value sufficient for a healthy deposit on a house, if you can afford monthly mooring fees comparable to mortgage payments on a house... why not just buy a house? It doesn't seem as if you're living aboard for financial reasons, but nor do you seem to be enjoying much of a "boating lifestyle".

[Athy]

Sorry, but I can't get away from the basic question... if you want to live in something that's the size of a house, if you're happy for it to be fixed in one place like a house, if you own an asset with a value sufficient for a healthy deposit on a house, if you can afford monthly mooring fees comparable to mortgage payments on a house... why not just buy a house? It doesn't seem as if you're living aboard for financial reasons, but nor do you seem to be enjoying much of a "boating lifestyle".

Good point - but he's in London. Have you seen property prices down there lately? So I suspect that "financial reasons" loom large in the OP's reasoning.

[widebeamboy]

Sorry, but I can't get away from the basic question... if you want to live in something that's the size of a house, if you're happy for it to be fixed in one place like a house, if you own an asset with a value sufficient for a healthy deposit on a house, if you can afford monthly mooring fees comparable to mortgage payments on a house... why not just buy a house? It doesn't seem as if you're living aboard for financial reasons, but nor do you seem to be enjoying much of a "boating lifestyle".

 

its ok I can understand why it doesn't make a lot of sense. You are right the boat on its mooring would make a significant deposit on a flat (but not a house) in the area that I am currently living in. A flat in London does not come with the community spirit and neighbours that the place I am living does and the current location serves me amazingly for both mine and the wife's work options as well as having awesome neighbours and good options for the dogs at the same time. Most flats are leasehold and you end up paying a fair amount in service charges in London for the privilege and I will most likely not be able to keep two greyhounds in the flat as it will be expressly forbidden or some busybody will complain and it will get changed/enforced.

 

Having a flat sized boat gives me all of these things.

This is what the thick edge of £500k gets you in the area.....

 

http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/property-62998751.html?backListLink=%2Fproperty-for-sale%2Fmap.html%3FincludeSSTC%3Dfalse%26sortType%3D2%26minPrice%3D450000%26viewType%3DLIST%26channel%3DBUY%26index%3D0%26maxPrice%3D550000%26radius%3D0.25%26numberOfPropertiesPerPage%3D24%26locationIdentifier%3DPOSTCODE%255E1473592%23_includeSSTC%3Don%26auction%3Dfalse%26locationIdentifier%3DPOSTCODE%255E1473592%26maxPrice%3D600000%26minPrice%3D450000%26numberOfPropertiesPerPage%3D24%26previousSearchLocation%3DE14%25208EG%26radius%3D0.25%26searchLocation%3DE14%25208EG%26searchType%3DSALE%26sortType%3D2%26useLocationIdentifier%3Dfalse%26viewType%3DLIST%26box%3D-0.04492%2C-0.03054%2C51.50562%2C51.51544%26popupPropertyId%3D62998751&fromMap=true

and here is the £500k houseboat currently in the marina

 

http://www.rightmove.co.uk/new-homes-for-sale/property-63238103.html

Edited January 11, 2017 by widebeamboy

[magictime]

Good point - but he's in London. Have you seen property prices down there lately? So I suspect that "financial reasons" loom large in the OP's reasoning.

 

Have you seen the fees for double-width, 29m residential marina moorings? I mean, maybe the repayments on (say) a £400k loan would be higher, but I wouldn't bet on them being much higher.

 

 

 

its ok I can understand why it doesn't make a lot of sense. You are right the boat on its mooring would make a significant deposit on a flat (but not a house) in the area that I am currently living in. A flat in London does not come with the community spirit and neighbours that the place I am living does and the current location serves me amazingly for both mine and the wife's work options as well as having awesome neighbours and good options for the dogs at the same time. Most flats are leasehold and you end up paying a fair amount in service charges in London for the privilege and I will most likely not be able to keep two greyhounds in the flat as it will be expressly forbidden or some busybody will complain and it will get changed/enforced.

 

Having a flat sized boat gives me all of these things.

 

Fair enough. Thanks for not just telling me to mind my own business!

[Athy]

I will most likely not be able to keep two greyhounds in the flat as it will be expressly forbidden or some busybody will complain and it will get changed/enforced.

Nah, they'd never catch 'em!

 

But seriously, your reasoning make a good deal of sense. But a 70' X 12' boat should offer a great deal of Lebensraum if it is well laid out inside. Perhaps you could spend some of the money earmarked for a stretch on an interior revamp instead?

Any photos of this intriguing monster, please?

(Edit: I have just looked at the Viking web site so I assume that yours looks more or less like the one on there).

Edited January 11, 2017 by Athy

[Murflynn]

you mention a sea lock.

 

beware - a 70ft boat extended to, say, 29m would probably be structurally flawed because if it ever hit a seaway the hogging and sagging stresses may exceed those for which the original structure was designed. i.e. it might buckle in the middle. it would need checking by a marine architect before attempting it.

[dor]

My first thought is that it would reduce its value as it would not be usable as a boat. I would also expect it to be very expensive. This isn't going to be a simple Streethay Stretch - to lengthen a widebeam that is already 70 feet long would need some serious work, not to mention the fees of a good surveyor. This is not a job to be done by "John the welder down the road".

 

But on the other hand, with London property being what it is, there would no doubt be a strong market with people who have no interest in boating.

 

Which of these is the more significant factor I wouldn't like to say. I know someone who paid over a million several years ago for what looked to me like a couple of floating containers with windows in, but then it was moored by Chelsea.

[RD1]

Could you buy an identical hull, and call it a catamaran lol. or tow it as a butty?

[dmr]

Could you buy an identical hull, and call it a catamaran lol. or tow it as a butty?

 

But a bit more seriously, can you instead get another shorter boat to moor behind yours? It depends on what you need the extra space for, but if its storage and a guest bedroom then a separate butty might work quite well.

 

and an aside, but I am sure you could have far more than just two greyhounds on a boat of that size.

 

...........Dave

[Tam & Di]

Slightly rhetorical question.........looking for the pro's and cons of lengthening an already long and fat boat. Currently it is 70x12 cruiser stern Viking canal boat.

 

We love the boat, its fit out, its interior style and design however with a wife and two greyhounds and possible family addition(s) it isn't what we are going to want in relation to internal size inside.

 

Am open to abuse and ridicule as well as some sensible input at the same time.

ps reason am considering it is that most of what I am seeing in the Dutch barge market is longer in length however not in practical space (usually due to location of engine and wheel houses) or they don't have the big light windows that give our boat such a nice feeling when in the water.

 

It is a bit narrow to extend too far, plus as already mentioned the original scantlings might not be adequate. How long are you thinking of taking it to, and do you know anywhere that can do the job satisfactorily? Obviously it is not just a job of cutting in the middle or wherever the hull is lowest and fabricating a new section - all the existing services will have to be reorganised so there will be a lot of internal disruption too. You need people who know exactly what they are doing too - start welding at one side and continue right round to the other and the heat distortion will likely mean you finish with a banana shaped boat. Also, as you already mention the existing engine may not be adequte for the new length, so you might be turning it into a craft that can only move under tow - that would probably not reduce its resale value a lot though.

 

It does depend upon how confident you are of your own knowledge and experience, as it might be worth while employing someone with experience in this sort of work to oversee the work for you.

[widebeamboy]

ok to answer some points.

A long mooring is circa £15k a year with no VAT, no council tax nor CRT licence fee required. There is no wide surcharge unless I extend the beam to >4.5m.

I'm m already paying £1000pm for the current vessel (again no VAT, CT or CRT) costs.

 

I'd be getting the steel work done properly by someone who is well known in the boating fraternity for his work (and already booked up into 2018) and have a very rough idea of costs per foot for the steelwork. The internal services are pretty straightforward (if not disruptive), the only instant complication is the 12v system and the voltage drop being too great however this isn't impossible to overcome with new wiring and possibly the run on the gas pipe might be an issue, however not impossible to move gas locker to the stern from the bow where it currently is.

 

Sealock is at Limehouse so yes it is tideway and the work would need to be done I am guessing somewhere West upstream with the vessel either being towed back (probably more sensible option) or powered under own steam (I suspect not a smart move).

 

A shorter boat might be an option, anyone know of any 10m x12' widebeams? Actually all joking aside a dumb platform/butty could serve the purpose or proividng the additional space to move the storage/sewing room etc and free up the current 2nd bedroom to be used as one. Best idea so far this one.

 

I'll add some interior shots shortly.

[Arthur Brown]

If you think it's what you want to live in, then go through the basic working on paper. How much length do you want to add? What will that do to the seaworthyness of the product, What will it do to the weight for being craned in and out? What will it do to the possibility of moving the boat by truck? Where do you hope to get the work done? Which marine architect is going to sign the design off as safe -no jobbing welder can be expected to do so! Where an how will you get it blacked every two years? What is the maximum dimension that your qualifications will let you drive on your bit of water -sooner or later your navigation will demand more than recreational skills of boat handling. Will extra length mean you need extra things (life-rafts radios etc) on your home water?

[widebeamboy]

Worked it out:

Edited January 11, 2017 by widebeamboy

[blackrose]

its ok I can understand why it doesn't make a lot of sense. You are right the boat on its mooring would make a significant deposit on a flat (but not a house) in the area that I am currently living in. A flat in London does not come with the community spirit and neighbours that the place I am living does...

But perhaps you don't realise that most of the boaters you like will hate you! Narrow boaters hate anyone who does something different. It's a herd mentality.

 

Just do what you want and f@ck 'em I say!

Edited January 11, 2017 by blackrose

[widebeamboy]