Starting to look for our own boat

[Sally Grim]

After some years of hiring, and a little bit of madness (living in Scandinavia), we have come to the decision that we want to have our very own narrowboat.

 

So we went for the obligatory trip to Whilton and Venetian, to look at boats available. We didn´t have too many criteria and "must-have´s", but were simply looking for a boat that doesn´t need a lot of work, a boat that seemed well looked after.

 

And...... the boat that remains in both our minds, is this....

https://www.whiltonmarina.co.uk/used-narrowboats/details/3837.aspx

 

Obviously in need of a lot of interior work. But what does the most knowledgeable forum think - should we run away, or could this be a good starter boat if we update the interior?

[Athy]

Welcome!

When I first saw your post I read the first word as "startling", and that's what the price is, for a boat of this age, size and make, in my opinion.

It comes from a known middle-range builder, has a well-known make of engine and has a welcoming look to the interior (though that armchair is in the way!). The galley is well laid out, though it has only a 2-burner hob (but then, although we have a 4-burner hob, we never use more than two at once). The spec looks O.K., with central heating, land line and so on. The pump-out toilet would not be everyone's

choice but quite a few people seem to exist happily with one.

The boat has obviously been extensively cruised (look at the number of rally/canal plaques on the door) so may be exhibiting signs of "tiredness" - this is often hard to tell from pictures. have you been on board this boat? She looks fairly smart in the photos, so perhaps she has been lovingly maintained by the previous owners.

But the price does, let us say, allow scope for negotiation.

[Gareth E]

I would suggest that a fair price for this boat is around £25,000.

[Sally Grim]

Thanks, Athy!

Yes, we were onboard, and not unexpectedly she was more tired than the pictures make out. We didn´t get to drive her or even start the engine. We didn´t ask, as we still thought we would like a boat with less upgrading needed.

 

Hiring, we have only used pump out toilets before, so that not a deal breaker either way.

We would at least need a new cooker (the existing is perched on a box), and a new seating arrangement, and to throw out the old armchair and sofa.

 

We also feel that the price is a bit more than we would expect from a boat this age and state, good to have a second opinion on that.

[Sally Grim]

I would suggest that a fair price for this boat is around £25,000.

 

Thanks, Gareth. Then my husband´s opinion on the price is not far off ....

[Bee]

I think if you are looking for a 'traditional' boat. i.e. without a 'cruiser' stern and with a pleasing shape to the fore end and one or two other nice details then this ticks quite a few boxes. I'm always a bit doubtful about boats without a solid fuel stove, its damn cold if the Webasto or Eberspacher gives up in January. Yes the interior is a bit dated but it probably functions ok and polystyrene insulation is not as good as sprayfoam (others may not agree) but if it was me looking then I would pencil it in as a possible, with a reasonable survey and a few thousand off it could be a nice boat.

[alan_fincher]

Pretty well agree previous comments.

 

Too expensive

Would never buy a boat without a solid fuel stove.

 

But also

 

Not everybody is keen on the Lister LPW engines. These may be the ones which can have a surprisingly short service interval, and which suffer if it has not been adhered to.

 

For me personally a semi-trad is the worst of all the possibilities, but I appreciate a lot of people like them.

 

What you haven't said, I think, is what you plan to use it for. If you are not living on it, and it is just for fair weather holidays, it could be fine. Today, I have been steering from the hatch of a proper trad, with a range stove burning just beside me. I would not have had half as much fun if I had been stood on a cruiser stern or semi-trad, freezing my butt off!

[Sally Grim]

That´s a fair point about a solid fuel stove, we would like one. Is it complicated and/or expensive to have one fitted?

The polystyrene was actually one of the points we were wondering about. Is the difference between sprayfoam and polystyrene very significant?

 

We hope to be cruising in all seasons. Have tried a week in October, in pouring rain, so I have an inkling of how cold it can be. Still loved it, though!

[Sally Grim]

 

 

Not everybody is keen on the Lister LPW engines. These may be the ones which can have a surprisingly short service interval, and which suffer if it has not been adhered to.

 

 

 

That´s very valuable information, Alan. Neither my husband or myself knows much about engines. We need to learn with time. Perhaps a boat with a Beta would be an easier choice?

 

We will be using the boat for holidays and weekends. As it would be mostly just the two of us, we are thinking cruiser stern or semi-trad.

[alan_fincher]

Well to retrospectively add a solid fuel stove is often not trivial, but the main thing is you need to have a space to put it, and will need to provide fire resistant surrounds with insulation board anywhere it is vaguely close to anything.

 

Professional fitting might be more than you think, and even the hardware itself isn't cheap. My guess is budget a couple of thousand, so buying a boat that doesn't have it might be a costly option.

 

Can't answer the polystyrene insulation question, because it depends heavily on the thickness used, and how well it has been done, and gaps avoided. Some boats will be fine - others will not be. Look carefully for any tell-tale staining of interior woodwork, which can be a symptom if it has been skimped.

 

EDIT

 

If you are looking at boats over 20 years old, you may find less Beta engines, and more Listers, BMCs, etc.

 

Bear in mind that many insurers place more stringent requirements on regular hull surveys when a boat is older, and typically at over 25 years. This boat will fairly quickly reach that age.

Edited December 22, 2016 by alan_fincher

[Señor Chris]

Looks a bit rusty at the waterline - has it been fitted with a galvanic isolator?

[Mrs Tawny Owl]

Not everybody is keen on the Lister LPW engines. These may be the ones which can have a surprisingly short service interval, and which suffer if it has not been adhered to.

 

 

LPW oil change interval is 250 hours, it's the LPWS (Indirect injecton) that has a service interval of 100 hours for oil changes. 500 hours for oil and air filters. (I just checked the operators handbook).

Parts are available and easy to obtain, (before anyone comments, I would say that wouldn't I, I'm a Lister spares dealer) there are a lot of them out there and being one of the more modern style Listers you'll find more people who can work on them than the older air cooled ones.

 

My other thoughts are, if they can get that much for that boat mines worth more then I thought it was!

 

Our boat is an Alvechurch ex-hire. She doesn't have a solid fuel stove and I've never felt the need to have one. We have gas central heating and for the use we put her to holidays and weekends as you say you want, it's not ridiculously expensive, and much more convenient.

Also leaves more space for other things.

 

As for the stern shape, we have a cruiser stern that can accommodate at least 6 people, but that suits us as we often have friends with us and shes a holiday boat. You don't freeze on a cruiser stern if you have enough of the right clothes, and I don't like having to stand on the gunnels to be with the stearer at the back of a trad.

 

What I would say, and this is from personal experience, is this.

 

Whichever boat you buy, even if you think the interior needs completely refurbishing, live with it for a while.

 

You'll find some of the bits you wanted to get rid of are actually really useful and suit you, and some of the ideas you had would not work so well.

 

Once you've had a few trips you'll see what really annoys you and needs changing first, and I'm sure it won't be what you thought it would be when you first saw the boat.

 

Good luck, when you find the right boat you'll know.

 

Sue

[matty40s]

Pretty well agree previous comments.

 

Too expensive

Would never buy a boat without a solid fuel stove.

 

But also

 

Not everybody is keen on the Lister LPW engines. These may be the ones which can have a surprisingly short service interval, and which suffer if it has not been adhered to.

 

For me personally a semi-trad is the worst of all the possibilities, but I appreciate a lot of people like them.

 

What you haven't said, I think, is what you plan to use it for. If you are not living on it, and it is just for fair weather holidays, it could be fine. Today, I have been steering from the hatch of a proper trad, with a range stove burning just beside me. I would not have had half as much fun if I had been stood on a cruiser stern or semi-trad, freezing my butt off!

Believe me Alan, after setting off today on an ice ridden back deck of a 12 ft wide cruiser stern ugly pig of a boat, you had by far the best experience.

 

The thing to note at the moment is, you have to be quick and on the ball.

 

Decent boats are selling as soon as they come on the market, for asking price(if priced correctly).

Demand is high for leisure as well as potential liveaboard boats of decent pedigree and cared for status.

You need to keep abreast of what is coming on the market, give brokers your boat "essentials" and ask them to let you know when something is coming along....if you don't, someone else will have a deposit on before you even look at the website.

Any boat now that has been on a brokerage now for more than 6 months is either vastly overpriced and the owner refuses to move, a complete dog of a boat, or something so niche designed that only another person like the commissioning owner would buy ( read vastly overpriced due to anyone else needing to spend a fortune converting it to a sensible boat)

Edited December 22, 2016 by matty40s

[thebfg]

 

 

 

My other thoughts are, if they can get that much for that boat mines worth more then I thought it was!

 

Our boat is an Alvechurch ex-hire. She doesn't have a solid fuel stove and I've never felt the need to have one. We have gas central heating and for the use we put her to holidays and weekends as you say you want, it's not ridiculously expensive, and much more convenient.

Also leaves more space for other things.

 

As for the stern shape, we have a cruiser stern that can accommodate at least 6 people, but that suits us as we often have friends with us and shes a holiday boat. You don't freeze on a cruiser stern if you have enough of the right clothes, and I don't like having to stand on the gunnels to be with the stearer at the back of a trad.

 

What I would say, and this is from personal experience, is this.

 

 

Sue

I enjoyed seeing your boat as we cruised up the GU. it reminded me of my holiday as a kid doing the Avon ring. Although we went from Evesham and the boat was probably nothing like yours but it was in my memory. Edited December 23, 2016 by thebfg

[cuthound]

In terms of insulation, I would rate them in the following order, providing the insulation insulations thick enough and properly applied.

 

1. Sprayfoam.

 

 

2. Thinsulate.

 

3. Rockwool.

 

4. Polystyrene.

 

However if the boat has decent heating, poor insulation will only cost you more money and fuel and possibly cause a little condensation.

 

If you want to cruise extensively in winter, then a trad stern is preferable. I have one with a wide hatch which comfortably allows 2 people to stand in it, at the expense of letting more heat out of, and rain into the boat.

 

Am alternative is to don something like a waterproof padded coverall and decent gloves, they will keep you warm and dry on the back of a semi-trad or cruiser stern.

[Trillian]

 

Am alternative is to don something like a waterproof padded coverall and decent gloves, they will keep you warm and dry on the back of a semi-trad or cruiser stern.

Don't forget really really good warm footwear. I have a cruiser stern and was comfortably warm cruising last weekend except for my feet. They froze solid and I have chilblains for the first time since i was a child.

[Sally Grim]

Thank you, everyone, for your input and good wishes.

I guess that this boat needs to come down a lot in price, and that we need to keep our heads cool when looking at boats. Not easy!

 

It's very confusing looking for a boat. We've spent a lot of time on apolloduck. The nice ones are also quite expensive (what a surprise... )

 

We viewed a few trads, and I still think I would like a little more room at the stern,. Even though it means layering up for cruising in cold and wet weather.

[Alan de Enfield]

 

 

Not everybody is keen on the Lister LPW engines. These may be the ones which can have a surprisingly short service interval, and which suffer if it has not been adhered to.

 

 

 

 

LPW oil change interval is 250 hours, it's the LPWS (Indirect injecton) that has a service interval of 100 hours for oil changes. 500 hours for oil and air filters. (I just checked the operators handbook).

Parts are available and easy to obtain, (before anyone comments, I would say that wouldn't I, I'm a Lister spares dealer) there are a lot of them out there and being one of the more modern style Listers you'll find more people who can work on them than the older air cooled ones.

 

 

 

Well said Sue.

 

We have had both LPW & LPWS engines - the last LPWS had over 9000 hours on it and didn't use a single drop of oil, or smoke in the slightest. I think it is one of the best engines we have had on a NB.

 

Yes - it is 100 hour oil changes and when out cruising that means changing the oil ever 3 weeks - but carry plenty of filters and oil and its a job done in under half-an-hour. (I always changed the filter at the same time as the oil - for a 'couple of quid' its not worth leaving it.)

 

LPWs & LPWS are a good choice and 'better' than the modern Japanese stuff made from converted 'digger engines'.

[Sally Grim]

I 'm sure we can manage to change oil and oil filters regurlarly, that's not a problem.

But what about the rest of it? I want an engine that doesn't break down in the middle of Blisworth Tunnel.....

 

Would a LPW/LPWS need a lot of TLC?

 

And - how do I put this - what sort of engine hours should one expect/look for? Or is that to ask about the length of a string?

[Alan de Enfield]

 

 

Would a LPW/LPWS need a lot of TLC?

 

And - how do I put this - what sort of engine hours should one expect/look for? Or is that to ask about the length of a string?

 

Hire boat fleets regularly used LPW(S) engines so I would suggest that they wouldn't have used them if they were not reliable - other makes were available.

 

I never had a lister 'break-down' in all our hours of boating - I also had Listers in out Dumpers.

 

TLC - NONE NEEDED - just oil changes, air and oil filter changes by the 'book'.

Check the engine over every morning before starting (as you would do with any make) Check water & oil levels, fan-belt tight, no obvious / unusual 'stains' or leaks on the engine or broken wires.

 

An old boat with 'low engine hours' should be avoided. Diesel engines like to be used and it doesn't do them any good just sat for years on end.

A 'new' boat with high engine hours (1000s) with no service history should be avoided.

 

Ask the seller for evidence of engine servicing - even if he did it DIY there should be receipts for the purchase of oil & filters. What's the date differences on the receipts ?

[alan_fincher]

I 'm sure we can manage to change oil and oil filters regurlarly, that's not a problem.

But what about the rest of it? I want an engine that doesn't break down in the middle of Blisworth Tunnel.....

 

Would a LPW/LPWS need a lot of TLC?

 

And - how do I put this - what sort of engine hours should one expect/look for? Or is that to ask about the length of a string?

 

If you are going to make good use of the boat, I think you would find that 100 engine hours occurs really quite rapidly, and it becomes a real pain, (and a reasonable amount of expense) to do oil changes at that regularity. The potential problem is that even if you discipline yourself to it, can you be sure that the boat's owners for the last 22 years have been so committed?

 

So personal I would heed Mrs Tawny Owls advicew about exactly which Listers have that very short interval, and I would avoid a boat with one that does.

 

Other than that, I don't think it is possible to say (for example) that a Kubota based engine like a Beta will automatically be "better" after 22 years than say a BMC or a Lister. How it has been looked after will be everything, and after 22 years, a BMC or Lister may have been well cared for and in good order, whereas a Japanese engine may be knackered by neglect, (or the other way around of course).

 

Similarly PRM gearboxes are the best regarded, but the Delta, (which has not been made for many years) can suffer from drive shaft problems, despite being otherwise very similar to the model that replaced it. You simply can't say "because it is a PRM it will be fine", but you can probably say "if it is a PRM it is more likely to be fine than a Hurth".

 

There is no obligation to fit an hours counter, and no guarantee if one is fitted that any engine hours it shows are accurate. I added one to a boat at maybe 14 years old, and it was subsequently replaced twice under warranty - each new one going in then saying 0 hours. I have just added one to an 80 year old boat with a 52 year old engine - it currently records 24 engine hours, reflecting just the few hours since a thoroughly knackered engine has just had a very major rebuild.

 

As i write this, it all sounds a bit negative, for which I apologise. I'm simply trying to say you can't give generic advice, and know it will be right. However, if when you lift the floor and look at the engine, it is clean, with no weeping leaks at any joint, with a nice clean dry catchment area in the bilge below it, you can probably be a lot more confident than if you find a filthy leaky engine, with large amounts of water, oil, grease and other contaminants sloshing around below it. It's no guarantee, but if everything looks well cared for, it probably has been - if obviously visible bits look sadly neglected, the bits you can't see may well have been ignored as well.

[alan_fincher]

Ask the seller for evidence of engine servicing - even if he did it DIY there should be receipts for the purchase of oil & filters. What's the date differences on the receipts ?

 

I seriously wonder just how many of us could produce such evidence going back many years, though. I'm farily meticulous about many things, but couldn't manage that!

 

Playing devils advocate, being able to prove that i bought enough oil (say) twice a year to do an oil change doesn't prove I ever did. The engine could be losing or burning oil so fast that I have just tipped all that in to try and keep a level on the dipstick.

 

Also I have mass bought oil filters 5 at a time in the past, as a convenience, but couldn't prove if and when any were ever used!

[matty40s]

I have never bought an oil filter for my 2L2, still running on the 1943 original. ...

[Sally Grim]

(...)

 

As i write this, it all sounds a bit negative, for which I apologise. I'm simply trying to say you can't give generic advice, and know it will be right. However, if when you lift the floor and look at the engine, it is clean, with no weeping leaks at any joint, with a nice clean dry catchment area in the bilge below it, you can probably be a lot more confident than if you find a filthy leaky engine, with large amounts of water, oil, grease and other contaminants sloshing around below it. It's no guarantee, but if everything looks well cared for, it probably has been - if obviously visible bits look sadly neglected, the bits you can't see may well have been ignored as well.

 

But I don't want this painted rosy red - we need to learn how to avoid at least the obvious fallpits.

And at first we also thought that we should look for a nice, clean engine/bilge area. But then we saw so many boats at the brokers, where oil had leaked into the bilge, that we wondered if we had been unrealistic about it.

[alan_fincher]

I have never bought an oil filter for my 2L2, still running on the 1943 original. ...

 

How is the 1943 oil holding up?