Your expertise is required - vid inside

[Geoff Taylor]

I had to adjust a new replacement accumulator on our boat and found that by running the cold tap to the point of pulsing and at the same time slowly letting air out of the accumulator until the flow settled, all taps and shower worked perfectly including the Paloma.

[David Mack]

 

He is meant to be gas safe registered. I didn't check personally. I trusted the Marina.

You can check if he is Gas Safe registered and has the 'boat' and 'lpg' tickets at http://www.gassaferegister.co.uk/help/check_a_business_or_engineer.aspx. There is also a link to report an unregistered person carrying out gas work (illegally if done for money). Edited January 12, 2016 by David Mack

[Big Rigg]

I think it's to do with the flow rate. With a cold tap well on, the flow rate is high and the pump is on full time, not cycling. But with the hot water, the flow rate is necessarily throttled by the boiler (since a fast flow would result in cool water) and the pump starts cycling. You can hear it in the shower vid, cycling very fast which means that there is effectively no accumulator.

A quick update:

 

After much persistence, I am now in contact with the technician.

He thinks that replacing my pump (2.9 gallons/l) to a 4.5 gallons/l will solve the issue. He also says the accumulator should have come already pressurized so it should not be the issue.

Name and shame the installer, this might prevent other people from having the same problem.

Lets see how our next meeting turns out. Maybe he's not a hack, just a laid back kinda guy...or plain lazy.

[Iain_S]

A quick update:

 

After much persistence, I am now in contact with the technician.

He thinks that replacing my pump (2.9 gallons/l) to a 4.5 gallons/l will solve the issue. He also says the accumulator should have come already pressurized so it should not be the issue.

Lets see how our next meeting turns out. Maybe he's not a hack, just a laid back kinda guy...or plain lazy.

 

Acumulators I have purchased (both of them!) came pressurised to a level well above pump pressure. I checked the first one, and it was about 80 p.s.i., so would have had no effect if installed "out of the box".

[Jess--]

I think changing the pump won't cure the problem (unless the pump produces much higher pressure).

 

He is probably correct that the accumulator is supplied pressurised but it is likely that the pressure it is filled to is too high for your system.

 

for example if the accumulator is filled to 50psi but your pump shuts down at 30psi then your pump is never going to push any water into the accumulator to allow it to act as a reservoir (it may as well not be there at all) and you will get the pump cycling on/off when you are taking a small amount of water.

 

if the accumulator was filled to 20 psi and your pump shuts down at 30 psi then when the pump is running with a small demand anything above 20psi in the system will go into the accumulator filling it with pressurised water, if the pressure reaches 30psi your pump will shut down but the water will continue to flow (coming from the accumulator instead) until the pressure drops low enough for the pump to restart.

 

a good test of whether your accumulator is doing anything at all is to turn your pumps power off and see how much water you can get from the taps, on my boat I can get a kettle out before the pressure is gone. also in normal use (with the pump on) I can usually wash my hands and face before the pump even starts up

Edited January 13, 2016 by Jess--

[nicknorman]

A quick update:

 

After much persistence, I am now in contact with the technician.

He thinks that replacing my pump (2.9 gallons/l) to a 4.5 gallons/l will solve the issue. He also says the accumulator should have come already pressurized so it should not be the issue.

Lets see how our next meeting turns out. Maybe he's not a hack, just a laid back kinda guy...or plain lazy.

No, increasing the pump size will not address this problem at all. It will if anything make it worse. He is admitting that he didn't check the accumulator pressure and I am 99% certain that checking / adjusting the air pressure (with the water depressurised) to around 15psi will fix the problem. It will only take a couple of minute and not cost anything.

[Ex Brummie]

Nicknorman is right. See my original response. Increasing the pump volume will make it worse. Your fitter is a muppet who does not understand the basics of systems and relative pressures. Yes, the vessel will have come pressurised, but to what pressure? I would think 3.5 bar, but with a pump that switches at no more than 30 psi, then it will never accumulate. Keep your pump and reduce the vessel pressure to 15-20 psi and see what effect it has. You can experiment with higher /lower pressure. The vessel can be reset with a bike pump and a tyre pressure gauge till you get satisfactory performance.

[Big Rigg]

I think changing the pump won't cure the problem (unless the pump produces much higher pressure).

 

He is probably correct that the accumulator is supplied pressurised but it is likely that the pressure it is filled to is too high for your system.

 

for example if the accumulator is filled to 50psi but your pump shuts down at 30psi then your pump is never going to push any water into the accumulator to allow it to act as a reservoir (it may as well not be there at all) and you will get the pump cycling on/off when you are taking a small amount of water.

 

if the accumulator was filled to 20 psi and your pump shuts down at 30 psi then when the pump is running with a small demand anything above 20psi in the system will go into the accumulator filling it with pressurised water, if the pressure reaches 30psi your pump will shut down but the water will continue to flow (coming from the accumulator instead) until the pressure drops low enough for the pump to restart.

 

a good test of whether your accumulator is doing anything at all is to turn your pumps power off and see how much water you can get from the taps, on my boat I can get a kettle out before the pressure is gone. also in normal use (with the pump on) I can usually wash my hands and face before the pump even starts up

 

There you have it. When I turn off my pump, I can get, at best, a couple of shots of water (50ml). Clearly there's no water in there.

[matty40s]

All good advice here, as I said earlier, a 22mm feed to the boiler would work better than the existing 15mm pipe. In fact, Morco recommend this in the installation manual.

[Big Rigg]

Big thank you to Jess Nick Brummie and everyone else who participated.

You have just saved me 150 quids. I was going to go through with it but you convinced me to do it myself. I'm going to get a bike pump and a tire pressure gauge and I will share my results. Hopefully no later than Sunday.

 

 

Here's another recommendation he gave me: change the shower hose to a larger shower hose. Which I did of course, silly me.

All good advice here, as I said earlier, a 22mm feed to the boiler would work better than the existing 15mm pipe. In fact, Morco recommend this in the installation manual.

What???

Were you able to recognise the 15mm pipe from the video? Are you 100% sure Morco recommends 22mm and NOT 15mm?

He installed the pipes. If what you say is correct, I have reason to sue this guy, and I will.

 

Please confirm

[nicknorman]

Big thank you to Jess Nick Brummie and everyone else who participated.

You have just saved me 150 quids. I was going to go through with it but you convinced me to do it myself. I'm going to get a bike pump and a tire pressure gauge and I will share my results. Hopefully no later than Sunday.

 

 

Here's another recommendation he gave me: change the shower hose to a larger shower hose. Which I did of course, silly me.

What???

Were you able to recognise the 15mm pipe from the video? Are you 100% sure Morco recommends 22mm and NOT 15mm?

He installed the pipes. If what you say is correct, I have reason to sue this guy, and I will.

 

Please confirm

Before reaching for your solicitor, remember that there is a difference between "recommends" and "mandates"! Anyway, he should have left the manual for the boiler with you, you can check the wording for yourself.

 

Just on the subject of the accumulator, it either has no air in it (ours was like this when delivered) or far too much. If the latter you could try (with water pump off and taps open) letting some air out until the "hiss" has decreased a fair bit. It will not be perfect but it might get the shower usable. You can set it properly once you have the pump and gauge. Of course if there is no air in it, you have no choice but to wait.

 

Oh and bear in mind the valve will be like that for a car tyre so make sure the pump you get has the right fitting. Racing bike tyres have a different type of valve.

Edited January 13, 2016 by nicknorman

[Big Rigg]

"Oh and bear in mind the valve will be like that for a car tyre so make sure the pump you get has the right fitting. Racing bike tyres have a different type of valve. "

Will do, thanks

[ditchcrawler]

"Oh and bear in mind the valve will be like that for a car tyre so make sure the pump you get has the right fitting. Racing bike tyres have a different type of valve. "

Will do, thanks

Mine pumps up with a car foot pump.

[Big Rigg]

Latest update:

I have told him I want to check the accumulator first before spending more money on a pump.

He no longer wants to work on my behalf.

 

He is registered by the way.

Do you think I have ground to report him?

[nicknorman]

Latest update:

I have told him I want to check the accumulator first before spending more money on a pump.

He no longer wants to work on my behalf.

He is registered by the way.

Do you think I have ground to report him?

Report him to whom? If the problem is that some air needs to be let out or pumped into the accumulator then the "worth" of any complaint is minimal. On the other hand, if you think the boiler installation is illegal / dangerous then you should report him to the gas safe people, but I think you'd need a second opinion.

 

The bottom line is that he will cite falling out with you as the reason he doesn't want to come back. It's annoying but unless you think the whole installation is duff I'd forget it and sort it yourself. Of course you can let it be known that he's a cowboy. Social media is very powerful these days!

 

We had a minor problem with our brand new engine, the manufacturer sent out a chap to fix it who was a contractor. He didn't fix the minor problem, put a second hand part on which was worse than the one he took off, left us, and the engine conked out 1/2 mile later. I decided to sort it myself as I had no intention of letting the muppet anywhere near my engine again, the manufacturer sheepishly sent me the part, I installed it and the engine has been perfect ever since. As I've said before this is not uncommon in the boating world and the only solution, unless you're lucky enough to find a good chap, is to become competent yourself.

 

Oh and also, we spent 100k on a brand new boat. The accumulator wasn't pressurised at all. It was easier just to sort it myself than to get the builder to do it. It's not a perfect world!

Edited January 13, 2016 by nicknorman

[Big Rigg]

He admitted he did not check the accumulator and he failed to identify the issue. Instead, he offered a solution which would have aggravated the situation. How can I trust the rest of his work? I can't. I have to hire someone else at my expense to ensure my boat is safe to live in.

He is a license holder and he should be made accoutable for this.

[nicknorman]

He admitted he did not check the accumulator and he failed to identify the issue. Instead, he offered a solution which would have aggravated the situation. How can I trust the rest of his work? I can't. I have to hire someone else at my expense to ensure my boat is safe to live in.

He is a license holder and he should be made accoutable for this.

It's incomprehensible to me how someone would do that job and not do basic testing such as turning the shower on - whereupon the problem would be obvious. Unfortunately that is not an uncommon attitude for "professionals" who just want to hurry on to the next job. I'd better add that there are also good guys out there, but it can be difficult to tell the difference when you commission the job. Edited January 13, 2016 by nicknorman

[Jess--]

It's incomprehensible to me how someone would do that job and not do basic testing such as turning the shower on - whereupon the problem would be obvious. Unfortunately that is not an uncommon attitude for "professionals" who just want to hurry on to the next job. I'd better add that there are also good guys out there, but it can be difficult to tell the difference when you commission the job.

I'll play devils advocate here...

 

Its possible that he did check that everything appeared to be working properly but didn't have the heater set to as high a temperature as the owner uses, and as a result didn't trigger the problem.

 

that said the refusal to work for the customer over a simple request along the lines of "can we check the accumulator before we replace the pump" strikes me as more than a little odd.

[Big Rigg]

I'll play devils advocate here...

 

Its possible that he did check that everything appeared to be working properly but didn't have the heater set to as high a temperature as the owner uses, and as a result didn't trigger the problem.

.

The heater would need to be set really low not to notice it in the shower.

[MtB]

The pump starts and stops with the surges.

 

I had a professional who charged me over a £1000 to install the hot water (boiler+ accumulator and a couple of other things). Now, he doesn't reply to my emails/texts/phone calls.

As I said in my previous post, I just had the work done by a technician recommended by a marina. He lives there I think. I haven't heard a reply from him since before Christmas.

 

 

I disagree.

 

You were fooled by an amateur masquerading as a professional.

[Ex Brummie]

As a professional in heating, I am often asked by customers if I mind them watching, as "the last bloke got upset".

My reply is that I don't, as I have every confidence in my ability, and the time I take to explain everything won't add too much to the bill! I then often get left alone. I also return if there is a problem. I like to think I treat my customers as I would expect to be treated myself.

Seriously, if you have a complaint it would be to trading standards, as Gas Safe are only interested with the correct installation of the gas appliance and attendant regulations. Your problem has no significance in this regard. The operation of multipoint heaters is something many current plumbers are unaware of as their use in domestic areas is now minimal, but even the practicalities are totally different with higher outputs and higher pressure systems that do not rely on pumps. The accumulator you have, installed with proper pressures for your system should replicate the conditions of mains water supplies where there is a constant pressure.

[smileypete]

Any news?

[MtB]

As a professional in heating, I am often asked by customers if I mind them watching, as "the last bloke got upset".

My reply is that I don't, as I have every confidence in my ability, and the time I take to explain everything won't add too much to the bill! I then often get left alone. I also return if there is a problem. I like to think I treat my customers as I would expect to be treated myself.

Seriously, if you have a complaint it would be to trading standards, as Gas Safe are only interested with the correct installation of the gas appliance and attendant regulations. Your problem has no significance in this regard. The operation of multipoint heaters is something many current plumbers are unaware of as their use in domestic areas is now minimal, but even the practicalities are totally different with higher outputs and higher pressure systems that do not rely on pumps. The accumulator you have, installed with proper pressures for your system should replicate the conditions of mains water supplies where there is a constant pressure.

 

 

I disagree. They are very interested in gas techncians working 'out of scope' i.e. Gas Safe Registered but not holding the correct 'ticket' for the work they are doing.

 

The OP still hasn't told us if this gas bod holds the 'LPG for Boats' ticket. All he has said is he has checked and the bloke is 'registered'. Well you can be registered for natural gas in houses but then working on a boat is just as illegal as a bricklayer installing the Morco and GSR need to hear about it.

 

If the bod doesn't have LPG for Boats, then this is the complaint he should be raising with GSR.

[Big Rigg]

Update:

The accumulator was indeed too pressurised. It was a very simple fix. No need for a new more powerful (and expensive) water pump.

 

I am disgusted by the technician's level of professionalism. He is a hack or a scammer. Now that I have additional evidence of this, i will pursue the matter further. I don't want this to happen to someone else and i wonder how much he would have ripped me off should I have never found out about canalworld.

 

 

I will try to post a couple of pictures and update the YouTube videos descriptions in the hope that it will help someone in the future.

I will also try to update this thread with any legal advice I can gather along the way.

 

I would like to thank you all again for your input and your concerns. I will from now on always recommend the Canalworld community over any technician/engineer!

[nicknorman]

Well done, and thanks for updating us. But just think, if he hadn't cocked it up you wouldn't have had the motivation to learn about pumps and accumulators. He did you a favour!

Edited January 18, 2016 by nicknorman