Opinions on this boat please?

[Cairokid]

Having seen some very useful comments in other threads, could I ask you experienced boaters what you think of this boat please?

 

http://www.apolloduck.com/feature.phtml?id=445978

 

Haven't been on board yet as we are not in the UK but plan to see her soon.

 

About us - we are well into our 60s and completely new to riverboats although we're both experienced sailors. My husband was in the navy from age 14 so knows his way around most sorts of boat but I've only dealt with ones with sails before

 

Our plan is to live on board for several weeks or even months at a time.

 

The boat is being sold privately, not through a broker. Are there any particular things we should be aware of with a private sale? We intend to get a survey but should we involve a solicitor? Hiw do you check that the person actually owns the boat and doesn't owe any money on her, for instance?

[MtB]

Having seen some very useful comments in other threads, could I ask you experienced boaters what you think of this boat please?

 

http://www.apolloduck.com/feature.phtml?id=445978

 

 

Looks like a perfectly decent boat, if you must have a widebeam. The downside of a widebeam is you are limiting yourself to accessing less than half of the UK's water system.

 

Where are you planning to moor it?

 

 

 

The boat is being sold privately, not through a broker. Are there any particular things we should be aware of with a private sale? We intend to get a survey but should we involve a solicitor? Hiw do you check that the person actually owns the boat and doesn't owe any money on her, for instance?

 

Big, BIG questions!

 

Plenty of long, long threads on this exact subject. Have a search using Google or the search box top right hand corner of every page here. (Take care to set the search the whole site not the default of only the current thread.)

[Tiggs]

With a pump out loo and only 100 gall water tank I would hardly call this a "live aboard" boat for cruising.

 

Not that you can go "long distance cruising" anyway with a wide beam. In fact most of them hardly ever move as far as I can tell.

 

You are right to be concerned about ownership / debt - you need proof of this - which may involve getting legal advice or insurance against it.

 

I'd say nice boat for living in a marina.

[Doug_]

Welcome to the forum. The shell is shown on Jim Shead's boat list as a 57 foot X 10 foot shell built by Liverpool boats, not 58 foot as advertised. A wide beam will limit your ability to travel around the whole canal network, so something to consider depending on where you wish to base the boat.

I'm sure others will be along to add their views but nothing wrong with Liverpool boats. Mine is a 1999 Liverpool shell, not a prestige boat in terms of build quality but middle of the road. I can't comment on the price in terms of value for money as its not a section of the market I have any experience of, however, you get what you pay, The boat pictures look ok except for the engine, mine is 10 years older and with over 2000 hours on it is cleaner and better looking. Hopefully it just says needs a clean and some TLC.

 

Proving ownership or outstanding finance is not easy. Meeting the current owner helps to allay fears or maybe raise suspicions, good luck in your quest.

[kevinl]

Strange the ad says it's built by "Mill Wharf BOat Co" but the boat index says it's a Liverpool Boats build, does that affect the value?

Is 10 feet a widebeam or just a fat narrowboat, 12 feet to me is a widebeam.

K

Catch The Wind Built by Liverpool Boats in 2009 - Length : 17.37 metres ( 57 feet ) - Beam : 3.05 metres ( 10 feet ) - Draft : 0.61 metres ( 2 feet ). Metal hull Powered power of 55 HP. Registered with Canal & River Trust number 522182 as a Private Narrow Boat. ( Last updated on Thursday 23rd January 2014 )

Good point it's shrunk a foot since it was built

Edited November 8, 2015 by kevinl

[ditchcrawler]

Strange the ad says it's built by "Mill Wharf BOat Co" but the boat index says it's a Liverpool Boats build, does that affect the value?

Is 10 feet a widebeam or just a fat narrowboat, 12 feet to me is a widebeam.

K

Catch The Wind Built by Liverpool Boats in 2009 - Length : 17.37 metres ( 57 feet ) - Beam : 3.05 metres ( 10 feet ) - Draft : 0.61 metres ( 2 feet ). Metal hull Powered power of 55 HP. Registered with Canal & River Trust number 522182 as a Private Narrow Boat. ( Last updated on Thursday 23rd January 2014 )

Good point it's shrunk a foot since it was built

It must be remembered that just because it was listed by Jim doesnt make the spec. correct. There are several errors in the listings if you read through them.

[MtB]

It's a widebeam if it doesn't fit up the Watford flight. Max width about 7ft 1in.

And yes I thought it looked like a LB shell, but found myself corrected by the details in the advert.

[matty40s]

Quite a few boats on Jim Shead are listed by boat fitter out not shell builder.

 

Beacon Boats have all their boats listed but shells were built to specific order by XR n D to my knowledge.

[MtB]

Quite a few boats on Jim Shead are listed by boat fitter out not shell builder.

 

Beacon Boats have all their boats listed but shells were built to specific order by XR n D to my knowledge.

 

 

I guess that'll be because for the purposes of the RCD, the organiser of the project is classed as 'the builder', so Beacon Boats would be the ones carrying out that task.

[Alan de Enfield]

 

 

You are right to be concerned about ownership / debt - you need proof of this - which may involve getting legal advice or insurance against it.

 

 

 

I'd be interested in how you could go about that.

 

My experience is that a Solicitor cannot find anything out because 'ownership' documents (as such) do not exist. - Money wasted.

 

Again - just my experience, but you can make a fairly good judgement by viewing the paperwork.

 

What's the person selling the boats' name ?

During conversation find out where he/she lives.

 

Look at letter from C&RT etc - what name and address are on them

Look at mooring invoices, what name and address are on them ?

Look at receipts for spares, repairs, blacking, painting etc - what name is on them.

 

Make a judgement about his/her knowledge of THIS boat, do they know where EVERYTHING is ( water stop tap, fuses, electrical master switches), Do they know the size of the tanks ( water, toilet, diesel), do they know the engine hours, when was the engine last serviced ( does that tie in with receipts for oil & filters or receipts from someone who did the work) When was the boat last blacked (does that tie in with receipts)

 

Does the seller have a bill of sale from when they purchased the boat ?

 

Until compulsory registration / ownership and 'ships papers' are introduced on Inland waterways then there is no chance of ensuring 100% ownership, however there is a lot of 'stuff' you can do to ensure the risk is minimised.

 

You cannot do a search to see if there is any outstanding loan secured on the boat - all you can do to minimise your risk is get the owner to sign the receipt that has a clause similar to :

 

I, Mr X. XXXXXX of (address) YYYYY, am the legal owner of the boat and have agreed to transfer the boat with no warranty given or implied to :

Mrs y. yyyyyyyyy of (address) ZZZZZZZZZ

In consideration of the sum of £??,000 paid to me by the transferee, receipt of which is acknowledged. I have the power so to transfer and that the boat is free from encumbrances.

 

 

You have applied due diligence, and, if it ever came to court you bought the boat in good faith having been informed that there was no outstanding debt on the boat, and, that the seller was the legal owner.

Edited November 9, 2015 by Alan de Enfield

[matty40s]

I guess that'll be because for the purposes of the RCD, the organiser of the project is classed as 'the builder', so Beacon Boats would be the ones carrying out that task.

...and is the same for any boat in the same position.

We get Tyler, colecraft and liverpool shells which the owner thinks are made by someone else.

[Graham.m]

Think Mill Wharf BOat Co. is Bliss Tunnel Narrow boats. As far as I know they fit boat not build hulls. So it could be a Liverpool hull fitted by Bliss or Mill Wharf BOat Co.

 

What worries me is the 2009 boat needing a new stove and washing machine, assuming they were part of the original fit out.

 

If the boat interests you I would be asking for proof, photo, of ID and UK address. Then I would want to see the original invoices for the boat and fitting, assuming the vendor is the original owner. Boats of this value frequently have been financed by a loan.

[MtB]

 

I'd be interested in how you could go about that.

 

My experience is that a Solicitor cannot find anything out because 'ownership' documents (as such) do not exist. - Money wasted.

 

Again - just my experience, but you can make a fairly good judgement by viewing the paperwork.

 

What's the person selling the boats' name ?

During conversation find out where he/she lives.

 

Look at letter from C&RT etc - what name and address are on them

Look at mooring invoices, what name and address are on them ?

Look at receipts for spares, repairs, blacking, painting etc - what name is on them.

 

Make a judgement about his/her knowledge of THIS boat, do they know where EVERYTHING is ( water stop tap, fuses, electrical master switches), Do they know the size of the tanks ( water, toilet, diesel), do they know the engine hours, when was the engine last serviced ( does that tie in with receipts for oil & filters or receipts from someone who did the work) When was the boat last blacked (does that tie in with receipts)

 

Does the seller have a bill of sale from when they purchased the boat ?

 

Until compulsory registration / ownership and 'ships papers' are introduced on Inland waterways then there is no chance of ensuring 100% ownership, however there is a lot of 'stuff' you can do to ensure the risk is minimised.

 

You cannot do a search to see if there is any outstanding loan secured on the boat - all you can do to minimise your risk is get the owner to sign the receipt that has a clause similar to :

 

 

Very sound advice, all explained here many times before to others asking the same question.

 

Now Alan De E has typed it all out again, it will be clear to the OP why a solicitor is unable to do anything to prove ownership or protect her interests.

 

Another brick in the 'wall of proof' (as I call it) is a big fat folder with the boat name written on it, containing all the original instruction manuals for the equipment installed (engine, water heater, pumps, bog etc) and a good few letters from BW/CRT addressed to the seller of the boat at an address you can verify (by going there to meet them to discuss something, for example).

[Cairokid]

Thank you all very much. I did try to do a search for the information before I asked as I thought it would be here somewhere but couldn't find it easily. Will try again.

 

My husband spoke to the owner last night. He says he is the second owner and has had the boat for two years (which would tie in with the January 2014 entry mentioned by someone above). I gather he and his wife have been cruising in it but there has been a marital breakdown which is why he is selling. Apparently he sounded very upset as he says he planned this for a long time. Poor guy.

 

We will examine all the documents carefully Thank you so much for the suggestions. Think I'll photograph important ones.

 

Is there a standard type of Bill of Sale that is used?

 

I'm not sure what address he has, if he's living on the boat. He's arranged to meet us in a nearby pub. By co-incidence it's in a town my brother lived in and he knew the person who ran this pub. He still has a good friend there so he may be able to do some subtle digging locally.

 

We will be spending quite a lot of time in a marina, just to confirm everyone's prejudices but want to be able to go off for a week now and then to explore. We're looking at marinas in the Huntingdon / Ely area to be near to family, and I'm aware that will limit our cruising too. I thought 10ft might be a nice beam as it gives more 'living' room than a narrow boat without being too broad and bulky for narrower parts of rivers.

 

I'm gong to ask a newbie question now but how do you turn a boat this size round in a river or canal? I know how to spin a yacht in a confined space so I imagine it's the same principle, but are there sections of the river / canal that are slightly wider that you can use? 57' / 58' is quite long to turn. I've never driven anything longer than 45ft before. Do these type of boats normally have a bow thruster fitted? (My husband poo poos them but I think I might need one ...)

 

If we do buy this boat we'd plan to sail here to as near a point to the Great Ouse as we can and then get her taken by road the last bit. I think it's impossible to get from Henley to Huntingdon by water with a boat this wide.

 

Will check out why the cooker / washing machine were replaced.

 

Thank you so much again for all the useful comments.

Edited November 9, 2015 by Cairokid

[RLWP]

If you can turn (swing/wind) a yacht, you'll easily turn a narrowboat

 

Richard

[ditchcrawler]

Yes its a lorry job. There is already a very similar post on here somewhere. You should be able to get as far as the Northampton Arm and get lifted out there.

[dor]

Be very careful if it is for sale due to marriage breakup. It makes it very difficult to establish who actually owns what. I know of boats sold by one ex-spouse that turned out to be half or wholly owned by the other.

Edited November 9, 2015 by dor

[Alan de Enfield]

 

Is there a standard type of Bill of Sale that is used?

 

 

 

A broker would use the BMF documentation but a private seller would not have access to that.

You can down load an example of a BOS from the RYA website

 

or

 

drop me a PM with your email address and I'll send you one via Pdf or 'word'

 

PS - you don't need a 'sissy button' ( aka bow thruster) if you can helm a boat.

[Cairokid]

Be very careful if it is for sale due to marriage breakup. It makes it very difficult to establish who actually owns what. I know of boats sold by one ex-spouse that turned out to be half or wholly owned by the other.

Ooh, good point.

A broker would use the BMF documentation but a private seller would not have access to that.

You can down load an example of a BOS from the RYA website

 

or

 

drop me a PM with your email address and I'll send you one via Pdf or 'word'

Thanks. Will PM you. I'm a lifetime RYA member so I guess I should go and look what information they have on their site as well.

 

PS - you don't need a 'sissy button' ( aka bow thruster) if you can helm a boat.

That sounds just like the sort of comment my husband would make.

[Graham.m]

I suspect that if you can turn a 45 foot yacht you will have no problems with a barge. However being that it is a broadbeam and flat bottomed it is not quite as easy as a yacht with a lovely keel. Lets say if the yacht barge has a bow thruster it could make things easier. As to whether it is worth retro fitting one I would suggest not.

Edited November 9, 2015 by Graham.m

[OldGoat]

It seems strange why the boat location is shown as Henley. The photos of the boat are somewhere on the canal system (look at the banks and width of waterway). The engine bay is really distressed for a boat that's only six years old. The rest of the boat looks nice - so why doesn't the engine room look tidy?

 

A "wide narrowboat" is neither one thing or the other. Too wide for much of the canal system - or at least the connecting parts and not wide enough to give you loads of space

 

Apart from - possibly unreasonable alarms ringing - it seems overpriced to me. There was a lady on here in the spring who bought a real widebeam (at least I think it was) 'new' for £10K less and with a more practical specification.

 

Any boat on the Thames tends to be overpriced and so are the expectations of folks living nearby.....

[Cairokid]

It seems strange why the boat location is shown as Henley. The photos of the boat are somewhere on the canal system (look at the banks and width of waterway). The engine bay is really distressed for a boat that's only six years old. The rest of the boat looks nice - so why doesn't the engine room look tidy?

 

A "wide narrowboat" is neither one thing or the other. Too wide for much of the canal system - or at least the connecting parts and not wide enough to give you loads of space

 

Apart from - possibly unreasonable alarms ringing - it seems overpriced to me. There was a lady on here in the spring who bought a real widebeam (at least I think it was) 'new' for £10K less and with a more practical specification.

 

Any boat on the Thames tends to be overpriced and so are the expectations of folks living nearby.....

 

I wondered if some of the photos might be from when it was sold last time? They are wide-angle which I'd expect from a broker rather than a private seller. Anyway, plenty of suggestions here as to things to ask about. We're not in an hurry to buy so if it doesn't seem quite right we'll wait and see what else comes on the market.

[dor]

 

 

I guess that'll be because for the purposes of the RCD, the organiser of the project is classed as 'the builder', so Beacon Boats would be the ones carrying out that task.

 

The HIN number would fit with Mill Wharf Boats, who presumably did the fitout and RCD. Definitely a Liverpool shell though.