A noisy noise annoys.

[The Ents]

Hi all. It wasn't there a few hours ago, but itis now..

The engine is an Sr3 no. 617 Sr3 23.

It goes ta pocketa. Ta pocketa as normal but there is an underlying noise, intermittent in nature but at camshaft speed. It comes and goes randomly maybe three or four times in in two seconds, but in rhythm with the camshaft noises..

I am familiar with the Lister combustion knocks, and normal valve cam follower noises..it is none of those

It does not vary with load or speed,although it follows the cam speed. Could there be a problem with the injector pump followers?

Worried of Middlewich..

Mike.

[RLWP]

At camshaft speed you have the valves, the fuel pumps and the oil pump

 

Fuel pump door would be a good place to start

 

Richard

[The Ents]

At camshaft speed you have the valves, the fuel pumps and the oil pump

Fuel pump door would be a good place to start

Richard

OK thanks for that. I have removed the door, but I can't run the engine yet, it is too early, and I am in work today.

I will go listening this evening.

Are the followers roller or flat? Can the valve followers come out upwards after removing the pushrods? Or has the cam to come out first?

Thanks,

Mike

[RLWP]

The valve cam followers are big, inverted mushrooms and come out the bottom after removing the camshaft

 

The fuel pump cam followers are rollers sitting in the bottom of cylindrical guides and come out of the top with the camshaft in place and the fuel pumps removed

 

The oil pump comes out of the bottom of the engine - right at the bottom!

 

You aren't going to learn much behind the fuel pump door, what you can learn is if the fuel pumps are loose. Check the bolts on the clamps. It's worth checking the pump clamps because a loose pump will alter the timing and possibly make a noise by moving. It's also a cause of broken fuel pipes and diesel in the sump

 

Richard

[nipper]

That's what I like about this site!

I couldn't give a dam about those winging about CART, there probably the same people saying the same old things that probably don't go anywhere far on the cut.
Nor the wingers, who are trying to convince themselves and others that they are a special case and deserve to stay put in that one place, because they either have work or business near by or have always stayed in the same place without a mooring.

It's the questions that are asked and the answers that are so freely given that I find so likeable!

Even if I don't understand a word what was said!

 

Nipper

[mattlad]

and normal valve cam follower noises..

Mike.

Sure it's not an abnormal cam follower noise?

 

I can't remember the one make / model of vehicle I used to work on but the cam followers used to wear unevenly and they used to go from silent to making a tap-tap-tapping noise as they rotated, and then back to silent for a few minutes before they start tapping again.

[Machpoint005]

I am glad some people run vintage engines in their boats.

Mostly I am also glad I'm not one of them!

[Sea Dog]

Mostly, I'm sad I'm not one of them. I'll bet he fixes this without someone scratching their beard, sucking their teeth and suggesting it's time for a new engine!

[bizzard]

Sure it's not an abnormal cam follower noise?

 

I can't remember the one make / model of vehicle I used to work on but the cam followers used to wear unevenly and they used to go from silent to making a tap-tap-tapping noise as they rotated, and then back to silent for a few minutes before they start tapping again.

Early Ford 105E, 120E OHV engines would frequently break a bit of the foot of a cam follower, the square raw edge of the follower would then turn square on to its cam and machine it down until circular causing that valve to remain closed. It usually happened to an inlet valve.

Edited September 16, 2015 by bizzard

[The Ents]

The valve cam followers are big, inverted mushrooms and come out the bottom after removing the camshaft

 

The fuel pump cam followers are rollers sitting in the bottom of cylindrical guides and come out of the top with the camshaft in place and the fuel pumps removed

 

The oil pump comes out of the bottom of the engine - right at the bottom!

 

You aren't going to learn much behind the fuel pump door, what you can learn is if the fuel pumps are loose. Check the bolts on the clamps. It's worth checking the pump clamps because a loose pump will alter the timing and possibly make a noise by moving. It's also a cause of broken fuel pipes and diesel in the sump

Thanks, useful information,

Mike

 

Richard

Sure it's not an abnormal cam follower noise?

 

I can't remember the one make / model of vehicle I used to work on but the cam followers used to wear unevenly and they used to go from silent to making a tap-tap-tapping noise as they rotated, and then back to silent for a few minutes before they start tapping again.

 

Yes I remember Fords doing that, but see below.

Mike.

[The Ents]

Early Ford 105E, 120E OHV engines would frequently break a bit of the foot of a cam follower, the square raw edge of the follower would then turn square on to its cam and machine it down until circular causing that valve to remain closed. It usually happened to an inlet valve.

I am, I think, familiar with failing follower noise.

1980's Ford Kent engines come to mind.

This noise is not loud, quieter than normal follower noise.

 

I think I favour a roller follower noise even though I have not come across it before.

 

I cannot work on the engine tonight, I will go listening tomorrow afternoon.

 

Thank you all for your advice and comments.

I will report ASAP.

Mike.

[RLWP]

Can you do the listening stick trick?

 

Richard

[zenataomm]

Strewth, I run a vintage engine in my boat!

[The Ents]

Can you do the listening stick trick?

Richard

I certainly can! I have an enormous wooden handled screwdriver, the handle of which fits nicely in the lug 'ole of the operative. I used it to listen a couple of days ago and the noise seemed to be at the front cylinder, ie furthest from the flywheel.

Have you any tips where to positin it to the best advantage?

I will be able to have a listen tomorrow afternoon and report.

Mike..

[RLWP]

I certainly can! I have an enormous wooden handled screwdriver, the handle of which fits nicely in the lug 'ole of the operative. I used it to listen a couple of days ago and the noise seemed to be at the front cylinder, ie furthest from the flywheel.

Have you any tips where to positin it to the best advantage?

I will be able to have a listen tomorrow afternoon and report.

Mike..

 

Not really. It did occur to me that camshaft speed is the same as the firing speed of the engine (every other stroke)

 

Have a good probe about and see what you learn.

 

Richard

[dave moore]

I run a vintage engine in mine too, one of the joys of being afloat. The measured triplet of the Kelvin J3 is a delight, I've also stood steering plenty of newer, faster motors for a long time, guess which I prefer? Sorry I can't help with the posted problem.

 

Dave

[RLWP]

I run a vintage engine in mine too, one of the joys of being afloat. The measured triplet of the Kelvin J3 is a delight

 

Dave

 

Do you also pass moored boats at 'Teddy Bear's Picnic' speed?

 

Richard

Edited September 16, 2015 by RLWP

[dave moore]

Slower, usually! Many moored boats have been unaware that I've passed, save for a slight tug on poorly tied lines.

 

Dave

[The Ents]

OK. So ran the engine and listened with the listening stick, pump cover off.

 

The intermittent noise is from the front cylinder. The pump on that cylinder is quiet, if anything on a Lister can be quiet!

 

The noise seems loudest in the inlet follower, but you can hear something on the exhaust as well I think..

 

 

I could put the listening stick against the follower to block interface and the normal tap pet noise was louder than the other cylinders and carried the intermittent nurdling noise.

 

I could not hear anything wrong near the lift pump.

 

So chaps,(and chapess''s,) what is your opinion.

 

If it is a can follower then the cam has to come out, so I have two questions.

 

How do you remove the hand start pulley assembly from the cam shaft?

Is it OK to take the weight of the engine on the boat bottom? It is only 8mm of 1968 steel!

 

Thanks in anticipation..

 

Mike.

[RLWP]

Before you go mad....

 

If you take the crankcase door off, you can see the camshaft. With a torch and mirror you can have a look at the cam followers - the valve and fuel pump ones

 

Have a look before you start thinking about taking the camshaft out - you need a lot of clearance at the front of the engine

 

Richard

 

MORE: Oh yes, could you tell if it was something to do with the cam followers or if it was the main bearing at that end? I'm thinking a thump on each firing of number one cylinder

Edited September 17, 2015 by RLWP

[The Ents]

Before you go mad....

 

If you take the crankcase door off, you can see the camshaft. With a torch and mirror you can have a look at the cam followers - the valve and fuel pump ones

 

Have a look before you start thinking about taking the camshaft out - you need a lot of clearance at the front of the engine

 

Richard

 

MORE: Oh yes, could you tell if it was something to do with the cam followers or if it was the main bearing at that end? I'm thinking a thump on each firing of number one cylinder

p

 

 

That is most useful information, I never thought about the lower crankcase door. That should be my next step.If I run the engine with the decompressor on that cylinder I may be able to eliminate the main bearing? The oil pressure is 50 on a cold idle, 40 at revs and 20 on hot tick over.

 

Mike

[The Ents]

So I enclose photos of the cam and followers. All rotate freely and have no marks or scuffing on the cam.

The oil pump cam I'd good also.

 

This is good news in that I have found all good.

 

This is bad news in that I still have a "nurdle" noise intermittently.

 

Can you guys suggest anything?

 

Mike.

[bizzard]

Your camshaft probably drives your alternator. Make sure all its securing nuts and bolts are tight, pulleys and belt in good nick. Fuel lift pump is also driven by the camshaft. And that the injector pumps U clamps are tight.

Edited September 18, 2015 by bizzard

[RLWP]

Cor! Shiny, oily bits

 

I'm liking Bizzard's alternator suggestion very much, and I'll throw in a loose engine mounting bolt for good measure

 

Richard

[The Ents]

Your camshaft probably drives your alternator. Make sure all its securing nuts and bolts are tight, pulleys and belt in good nick. Fuel lift pump is also driven by the camshaft. And that the injector pumps U clamps are tight.

Thanks for that Bizzard. The injector clamps are tight and the lift pump plunger and cam are good.

 

I had not thought of the alternator, it is indeed camshaft driven. I will whip the belt off and give it a whirl.

 

Thanks,

 

Mike.

Cor! Shiny, oily bits

 

I'm liking Bizzard's alternator suggestion very much, and I'll throw in a loose engine mounting bolt for good measure

 

Richard

And I'll checkthe mounting bolts as well.

 

Thanks.

 

Mike.