hull two pack coating

redfastlad · September 8, 2015

hi, as we have neglected our 57ft boat over the last 2 years due to my wifes ill health, we are now turning the corner and hopefully looking forward to being able to take the boat out next year for an extended cruise.

The question I am asking is does anyone know of a reliable boatyard in the Nottingham area that will re paint my boats hull in two pack? last time she was painted we had a disaster as they relaunched the boat and submarined the stern and filled the exhaust with water, I wont tell you where but it was on the river soar and I had untold problems caused by them , so I need to get her painted pretty quick as the weather wont allow two pack in poor weather please help asap, thanks

Chris

Edited September 9, 2015 by redfastlad

DrakeDruid · September 8, 2015

Just my thoughts based on this kind of blacking, it's great stuff if you don't cruise as its epoxy otherwise it's pointless expense as it gets scraped off like all blacking on your travels!

NB Lola · September 8, 2015

Paul Barber, wyvern Marine

07956 491311 No connection just a top guy

nicknorman · September 8, 2015

Just my thoughts based on this kind of blacking, it's great stuff if you don't cruise as its epoxy otherwise it's pointless expense as it gets scraped off like all blacking on your travels!

I don't really agree. Obviously it gets scraped - on the rubbing strakes. But it gets scraped there fairly often (every lock etc) so it doesn't really go rusty. However, along the water line is where traditional blacking tends to go rusty anyway (even without scrapes) and here, 2-pack is great. Ours is virtually perfect around the water line after 3 years of fairly heavy use.

blackrose · September 8, 2015

Just my thoughts based on this kind of blacking, it's great stuff if you don't cruise as its epoxy otherwise it's pointless expense as it gets scraped off like all blacking on your travels!

I don't agree either. The point is that any paint gets scraped, but a good epoxy will resist the scraping far better than just about any other type of paint.

hi, as we have neglected our 57ft boat over the last 2 years due to my wifes ill health, we are now turning the corner and hopefully looking forward to being able to take the boat out next year for an extended cruise.

The question I am asking is does anyone know of a reliable boatyard in the Nottingham area that will re paint my boat in two pack? last time she was painted we had a disaster as they relaunched the boat and submarined the stern and filled the exhaust with water, I wont tell you where but it was on the river soar and I had untold problems caused by them , so I need to get her painted pretty quick as the weather wont allow two pack in poor weather please help asap, thanks

Chris

There are several two-pack paints which are produced with winter grade hardeners. You can't paint it on in the depths of winter but paints such as the Jotamastic 87 range with a wintergrade hardener can be painted down as low as 5C depending on the dew point.

But (and this is the important point), presumably you realise that you've got to get any old blacking off the hull and take it back to metal before applying any two-pack paint for the first time?

bigcol · September 8, 2015

To do 2 pack expoxy

The boat needs to have every bit of normal blacking taken of my sand blasting?

Then for someone to put the 2 pack on

Is this something that folks can apply on their own? Similar to normal blacking

How much would folks expect to pay for this please ?

And who would do this, are we saying wyvern boats do this

57 ft in length same as OP

Col

Edited September 8, 2015 by bigcol

GreyLady · September 8, 2015

To do 2 pack expoxy

The boat needs to have every bit of normal blacking taken of my sand blasting?

Then for someone to put the 2 pack on

How much would folks expect to pay for this please ?

And who would do this, are we saying wyvern boats do this

57 ft in length same as OP

Col

Col calculating paint is times 2.5 what you would expect in litres

You cant just 2k a hull without highbuild on a used boat it will have pittings and scabs which the topcoat will only shine over and not fill, hence the boat will start to get rusty stains after 4-8 months.

Sandblast

Repair Area's

1k etch dust coat

2k highbuild x 2

2k Topcoat x 2

Personally i would always go for an oldskool coating on a boat that has an oldskool coating already, its a can of worms sandblasting very old welds.

Edited September 8, 2015 by grumpy146

cheshire~rose · September 8, 2015

Paul Barber, wyvern Marine

07956 491311 No connection just a top guy

I agree, I am at his yard tomorrow applying 2-pack blacking to Python, the Chesterfield Canal Trust's historic boat. He has just completed major works on the hull and we are applying the blacking ourselves because we are a charity and want to save some money but in a couple of weeks our own boat will be there and this time we will let him apply the blacking. (yes I know! daft enough to volunteer to black a charity boat but no time to black our own!)

I have met with the surveyor at Paul's place today for him to inspect the work. He said that all the work carried out "matches or exceeds all expectations" which is high praise indeed. Paul trades as P.J. Barber Boatbuilder. His website can be found here: http://www.pjbarberboatbuilderltd.co.uk/

As far as the benefits of two-pack blacking. I have to say a few years ago I would have echoed some of the stuff the naysayers trip out in these discussions but as time goes on and I speak to more and more people who have used it over a number or years and hear the good reports I am a convert, hence we are having it applied to our own boat. Our surveyor has been using the stuff for 18 years and hasn't got a bad word to say about it.

Personally i would always go for an oldskool coating on a boat that has an oldskool coating already, its a can of worms sandblasting very old welds.

Although recommended blasting is not required

Edited September 8, 2015 by cheshire~rose

GreyLady · September 8, 2015

I agree, I am at his yard tomorrow applying 2-pack blacking to Python, the Chesterfield Canal Trust's historic boat. He has just completed major works on the hull and we are applying the blacking ourselves because we are a charity and want to save some money but in a couple of weeks our own boat will be there and this time we will let him apply the blacking. (yes I know! daft enough to volunteer to black a charity boat but no time to black our own!)

I have met with the surveyor at Paul's place today for him to inspect the work. He said that all the work carried out "matches or exceeds all expectations" which is high praise indeed. Paul trades as P.J. Barber Boatbuilder. His website can be found here: http://www.pjbarberboatbuilderltd.co.uk/

As far as the benefits of two-pack blacking. I have to say a few years ago I would have echoed some of the stuff the naysayers trip out in these discussions but as time goes on and I speak to more and more people who have used it over a number or years and hear the good reports I am a convert, hence we are having it applied to our own boat. Our surveyor has been using the stuff for 18 years and hasn't got a bad word to say about it.

Although recommended blasting is not required

You cant 2k over Synthetic Based / Oil Based Paint's

Thats why no one will paint a boat with 2k over the above, 1 it will crazy crack 2 it would be like putting custard over cream it will float and be useless as a sealant.

Good luck with the Historic Boat that sound like fun, i want to appologize i dont mean to be a paint method sqwasher its just its just i spent 7 years at college studying paint technology while doing a underpayed workhouse apprentiship.

Edited September 8, 2015 by grumpy146

cheshire~rose · September 9, 2015

Hi Grumpy, No worries, you clearly have significantly more knowledge about than me, it was just fresh in my mind because, having been advised what product to use on Python I have been doing some investigation into it and application methods recently and it culminated with a discussion yesterday with the boat builder and the surveyor.

It is true that nobody will commercially apply a 2-pack blacking product without the hull being blasted clean. That is because they are unable to offer the guarantee that people expect to come along with the product. It WILL fall off in areas when the boat is next docked and jet washed if the hull is not blasted first.

The way it was explained to me is as follows. A 2-pack product has a 2-pack adhesion to a bare metal. A single pack product (such as standard bitumen) has 1-pack adhesion to bare metal. 2 -pack products will stick to single pack products but the manufacturer will not guarantee them because the weakest link in the adhesion is the 1-pack adhesion of the product underneath.

So, if you pull your boat out of the water to re-black it and jet wash it off then you are left with a mixture of bare metal and bits of bitumen that are intact. If you apply 2-pack over this it will stick like glue to any surface that is bare metal (most likely to be the area around the waterline which is so vulnerable) When you next pull your boat out for blacking and jet wash it off areas of blacking will wash off but they will be the bits where there was single pack below. If you re-apply 2-pack then this time a bit more bare metal will have 2-pack adhesion. On this basis each time you black your boat you replace a bit more single -pack with 2-pack.

Like I say I am no expert and have no experience of this myself but our surveyor (who is widely respected) has been doing this to his own boat for 18 years and while no boat builder can offer a guarantee on a product where chunks WILL fall off at the first docking it is a method he chooses to use on his own boat and is very happy with it. The key thing is that the older the old blacking is and the longer it has been in situ the better chance there is of the 2-pack of sticking. Our own boat is very long overdue blacking and so it is the optimum time for us to try it. I will let you know in 3 years how we get on!

Old Son · September 9, 2015

My boat was originally painted with Jotun 2 pack. After 4 years we had her in dry dock for inspection and re-blacking. The dry dock owner said he had never seen a boat so clean following the pressure wash. There was not a single pit anywhere. We applied 3 coats and will leave dry docking for 6 years or so.

Traveller · September 9, 2015

Personally i would always go for an oldskool coating on a boat that has an oldskool coating already, its a can of worms sandblasting very old welds.

I have read the above a few times on this forum but is there any evidence to show it is a high risk undertaking? Obviously there will be some that go wrong but then no matter what the project there will always be some that go wrong. I ask as I am considering going down that road.

Midnight · September 9, 2015

Just my thoughts based on this kind of blacking, it's great stuff if you don't cruise as its epoxy otherwise it's pointless expense as it gets scraped off like all blacking on your travels!

Not really the case, it can get scraped but is far more resilient than ordinary blacking. Ice for instance won't take it off in my experience.

To do 2 pack expoxy

The boat needs to have every bit of normal blacking taken of my sand blasting?

Then for someone to put the 2 pack on

Is this something that folks can apply on their own? Similar to normal blacking

How much would folks expect to pay for this please ?

And who would do this, are we saying wyvern boats do this

57 ft in length same as OP

Col

It's not really that much more expensive than vinyl tar blacking. Try Carters Paints at Sunderland I paid £8 per litre this year.

The hull does need sandblasting to remove a tar based coating but you can put 2-pack over 2-pack if you rough up the old coating with a wire wheel in an angle grinder. I once missed out that step and it didn't adhere too well.

You can DIY and there's a safer version (never used it as I suspect it's not as good). I use Hempel 15130 (Sigma do a similar product - a bit more expensive).Some retailers won't sell it to DIYers so trade outlets like Carters are the best option.

DIYers' do need to take extra care, use gloves, goggles and a good quality face mask with a gas filter attachment - you can get those at ARCO branches. The fumes are quite strong as it cures and after once using 2-pack in a fully enclosed dry dock I would strongly suggest not to do that.

edited for speeling mistakes

Edited September 9, 2015 by Midnight

GreyLady · September 9, 2015

Hi Grumpy, No worries, you clearly have significantly more knowledge about than me, it was just fresh in my mind because, having been advised what product to use on Python I have been doing some investigation into it and application methods recently and it culminated with a discussion yesterday with the boat builder and the surveyor.

It is true that nobody will commercially apply a 2-pack blacking product without the hull being blasted clean. That is because they are unable to offer the guarantee that people expect to come along with the product. It WILL fall off in areas when the boat is next docked and jet washed if the hull is not blasted first.

The way it was explained to me is as follows. A 2-pack product has a 2-pack adhesion to a bare metal. A single pack product (such as standard bitumen) has 1-pack adhesion to bare metal. 2 -pack products will stick to single pack products but the manufacturer will not guarantee them because the weakest link in the adhesion is the 1-pack adhesion of the product underneath.

So, if you pull your boat out of the water to re-black it and jet wash it off then you are left with a mixture of bare metal and bits of bitumen that are intact. If you apply 2-pack over this it will stick like glue to any surface that is bare metal (most likely to be the area around the waterline which is so vulnerable) When you next pull your boat out for blacking and jet wash it off areas of blacking will wash off but they will be the bits where there was single pack below. If you re-apply 2-pack then this time a bit more bare metal will have 2-pack adhesion. On this basis each time you black your boat you replace a bit more single -pack with 2-pack.

Like I say I am no expert and have no experience of this myself but our surveyor (who is widely respected) has been doing this to his own boat for 18 years and while no boat builder can offer a guarantee on a product where chunks WILL fall off at the first docking it is a method he chooses to use on his own boat and is very happy with it. The key thing is that the older the old blacking is and the longer it has been in situ the better chance there is of the 2-pack of sticking. Our own boat is very long overdue blacking and so it is the optimum time for us to try it. I will let you know in 3 years how we get on!

Heya, its a mindfield of worry when it comes to hull protection isnt it and one of my biggest fears of owning a boat.

all the best with your blacking and i hope it all goes well.

I have all this to come yet lol

GreyLady · September 9, 2015

I have read the above a few times on this forum but is there any evidence to show it is a high risk undertaking? Obviously there will be some that go wrong but then no matter what the project there will always be some that go wrong. I ask as I am considering going down that road.

I guess shot blasting is always going to give anyone an honest answer to what is really under all that paint blacking, i think its a suck it and see deal when it comes to taking the shot blasting leap with anything and trusting someone to make sure the 2k is is applied to the right microns and in a damp free area.

I would be very worried about giving someone my boat for bitchumen type blacking, its not good applying 2 or 3 coats in 1 or 2 days and putting the boat back in the water on day 3 or 4 with no in between coat drying days.

I think i would rent a dry dock for a week and do it myself instead if possible.

Cant fault this guy below blacking his boat old skool. (Poperrr jorb)

Edited September 9, 2015 by grumpy146

Traveller · September 9, 2015

I would be very worried about giving someone my boat for bitchumen type blacking, its not good applying 2 or 3 coats in 1 or 2 days and putting the boat back in the water on day 3 or 4 with no in between coat drying days.

There are many reliable yards around who will do a good job of that I am sure. I know of two within a few miles of our boat and there are certainly others :-) We can all go a bit OTT with worrying about the hull, but precautions are obviously necessary. I have mine blacked regularly and do not use shore power. I am not moored against metal staging either.

Edited September 9, 2015 by Traveller

cheshire~rose · September 9, 2015

I guess shot blasting is always going to give anyone an honest answer to what is really under all that paint blacking, i think its a suck it and see deal when it comes to taking the shot blasting leap with anything and trusting someone to make sure the 2k is is applied to the right microns and in a damp free area.

One of the coatings that was recommended to us was Epimatsic MP. It was originally designed for use on jetty supports and other metal structures that live underwater.

I am told that the teams applying this stuff wash the structure off as the tide goes out and apply it as the tide comes back in. It is designed to tolerate being applied on wet surfaces.

I struggle to get my head around that but I can see how it could be very useful when you want the job doing fast.

GreyLady · September 10, 2015

One of the coatings that was recommended to us was Epimatsic MP. It was originally designed for use on jetty supports and other metal structures that live underwater.

I am told that the teams applying this stuff wash the structure off as the tide goes out and apply it as the tide comes back in. It is designed to tolerate being applied on wet surfaces.

I struggle to get my head around that but I can see how it could be very useful when you want the job doing fast.

Epimastic is 2k and from reading the reviews it looks great, that's prolly what I would go for myself chreshire-rose, I would still leave at least one day in between coats for ir to properly flash off and cure as much as it could.

Looks great stuff.

If anyone tell me ita drawbacks that would be much appreciated.

Thanks cheshire-rose for letting me know

Edited September 10, 2015 by grumpy146

John V · September 10, 2015

Sabina H was done in Interzone 954 very successfully.

On the grit blasting doing damage to a hull......I would rather find a dodgy bit in a drydock than on a river

GreyLady · September 10, 2015

Sabina H was done in Interzone 954 very successfully.

On the grit blasting doing damage to a hull......I would rather find a dodgy bit in a drydock than on a river

Thanks John, can i be cheaky and ask how much paint it used and what length of boat ?

Its not cheap is it, £99 for 5 litres and £374 for 20 litres

Edited September 10, 2015 by grumpy146

John V · September 10, 2015

Sabina H is a 66' x 16'6" Humber tanker barge. Sorry I don't know how much paint was used as I got an all in price for gritblasting and painting by a specialist contractor (who normally did power station outflows etc)...

It is now nearly 8 years since it was done and it's starting to look shabby (surface has chalked a bit) but apart from a small area of less than 1 sq foot on the stem it is still intact. (I know they had trouble reaching that bit because the floating drydock wasn't very much longer than the boat!)

Edited September 10, 2015 by John V

GreyLady · September 10, 2015

Sabina H is a 66' x 16'6" Humber tanker barge. Sorry I don't know how much paint was used as I got an all in price for gritblasting and painting by a specialist contractor (who normally did power station outflows etc)...

It is now nearly 8 years since it was done and it's starting to look shabby (surface has chalked a bit) but apart from a small area of less than 1 sq foot on the stem it is still intact. (I know they had trouble reaching that bit because the floating drydock wasn't very much longer than the boat!)

Thanks John for your help, it sounds like its good stuff.

i am looking forward to blacking my boat, how weird is that lol

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