Council Tax within Licence Fee?

[Higgs]

 

 

In what way are these moorers who choose to live on non-resi moorings being taken advantage of?

 

I'd have thought it was the opposite. The moorers are blatantly abusing the system.

 

 

The OP seems to be between two stools, neither of which want to give the OP clarity of position. He is paying full wack council tax, yet his residential status does not have full exclusive residential rights. You might expect his mooring to be changed, or he be moved to another under hereditament valuation, but not on full band council tax.

 

Those who live on non-residential moorings and pay no council tax, good luck to them. Best get the marina to get planning permission and make it official. Otherwise, keeping your head down only requires you to make payment to the marina for all the on site amenities.

 

The OP, for the payment of his council tax, pays for the removal of waste. The OP, for his payment of his marina fee, pays the marina for waste disposal. Very good for both the marina and council, don't you think. The deal has been done for the marina's and councils convenience.

[Paul C]

 

 

The OP seems to be between two stools, neither of which want to give the OP clarity of position. He is paying full wack council tax, yet his residential status does not have full exclusive residential rights. You might expect his mooring to be changed, or he be moved to another under hereditament valuation, but not on full band council tax.

 

Those who live on non-residential moorings and pay no council tax, good luck to them. Best get the marina to get planning permission and make it official. Otherwise, keeping your head down only requires you to make payment to the marina for all the on site amenities.

 

The OP, for the payment of his council tax, pays for the removal of waste. The OP, for his payment of his marina fee, pays the marina for waste disposal. Very good for both the marina and council, don't you think. The deal has been done for the marina's and councils convenience.

 

The main barrier to overcome is to obtain the planning permission. This is not insignificant - and could quite easily be impossible. There is also the implication, that once obtained, the value of the mooring would rise significantly, so the mooring fees would rise in line with this. Since the OP has already stated the mooring fee is reasonable, I suspect in this particular case he's better off with the status quo.

 

Also consider the very realistic possibility that planning permission is applied for, and denied. Then it would make future under-the-radar living aboard at that location pretty much impossible too.

[Higgs]

 

The main barrier to overcome is to obtain the planning permission. This is not insignificant - and could quite easily be impossible. There is also the implication, that once obtained, the value of the mooring would rise significantly, so the mooring fees would rise in line with this. Since the OP has already stated the mooring fee is reasonable, I suspect in this particular case he's better off with the status quo.

 

Also consider the very realistic possibility that planning permission is applied for, and denied. Then it would make future under-the-radar living aboard at that location pretty much impossible too.

 

 

For an application of planning permission to be sort then refused, but the council decides to charge as if planning permission had been given is slightly arse about face in my opinion. If planning permission is part of a recognised procedure, in obtaining residential status for the mooring - surely, the council are running rough shod over that process. It is not a very tidy outcome for the moorer.

 

Whilst gaining residential planning permission may increase the mooring fee, it has not done so at the marina I am at. Increases in mooring fees cannot be considered to be always likely.

[BlueStringPudding]

Your licence fee does not include anything for council tax. If you are paying full band council tax, you should also have a postal code to use at the marina. Your mooring should be yours only. It does sound a bit fishy. Your mooring fee should include waste disposal charges, and usually an electricity card/meter supply, water supply, and Elsan.

 

If you are paying council tax, it would include the collection of domestic waste, as any householder would expect for the council tax payment. Don't really understand why the marina makes a charge as part of your mooring fee to pass onto the council for the collection of waste. It would seem that you have a duplication of billing for waste collection.

That's not what Central Bedfordshire council says. They say you do not have any right to bin collections or a postal address (or any other services) in order to have to pay council tax.

[Higgs]

That's not what Central Bedfordshire council says. They say you do not have any right to bin collections or a postal address (or any other services) in order to have to pay council tax.

 

 

Then, it is being used to subsidise other residents. It speaks more of the council's lack of returning value than of the council tax payer's expectation to receive and to be able to access common services. I've just been and looked at Central Bedfordshire's entries on the Direct.gov site - I see no mention of discretional selection procedures for determining who does and does not receive local services.

 

If it is also the case that the OP receives his mail through some courtesy of the marina, then, I think what he receives for his full band council tax payment is altogether unreasonable (miserly) for his payment of that council tax.

Edited August 30, 2015 by Higgs

[nbfiresprite]

If OP wants to check if he is actually paying council tax on his mooring. All he has to do is input the postcode on http://cti.voa.gov.uk/cti/inits.asp and check to see if his boat or mooing is listed.

[Tony Brooks]

Just a thought.

 

If a marina bills for the mooring + an electrical supply + this so called council tax the total payable may be similar to other local marinas but I suspect the Network Access Fee the marina probably pays CaRT would be reduced because the electricity supply and council tax are not part of the mooring fee.

[Chagall]

If OP wants to check if he is actually paying council tax on his mooring. All he has to do is input the postcode on http://cti.voa.gov.uk/cti/inits.asp and check to see if his boat or mooing is listed.

 

 

I pay for my mooring to the marina and I pay council tax to the council with a bill listed as my boat at the marina.

[rgreg]

 

 

That the moorer doesn't really exist or is of no consequence? No muscle and all that. Don't ruffle any feathers. It's called being taken advantage of. I think you'll find that thousands of moorers are in this used position, being taken advantage of.

No, I think if a mooree living aboard on a non-residential mooring has a council and Marina owner who are prepared to accept this for a basic rate council tax payment then that is better than the council putting pressure on the marina owner to adhere to regs and the latter deciding to stop liveaboards to avoid the hassle. What is not fair is that some pay and others don't.

[Higgs]

No, I think if a mooree living aboard on a non-residential mooring has a council and Marina owner who are prepared to accept this for a basic rate council tax payment then that is better than the council putting pressure on the marina owner to adhere to regs and the latter deciding to stop liveaboards to avoid the hassle. What is not fair is that some pay and others don't.

 

 

The average for band A is £845. And that is when you consider talking about your average Band A householder in a residence with all the perks of full residential status, receiving those services the council tax pays for.

 

It would be more acceptable to accept your term of "basic", if the mooring was valued by Hereditament. The moorer in this case seems to be short changed, He is not offered the security of exclusivity of mooring that Band A would/should afford him. What bugs me is that it is still unofficial. If anything, it is the council and the marina who are benefitting from this moorer. They both have his business and they sit on some fence and the moorer is conveniently trapped unless he moves.

 

Without full facts, it still looks like being taken advantage of. You apparently think that live aboards in non residential marinas are getting something for nothing. That's not true, they pay a mooring fee. They pay a licence fee. They pay a connection fee. In my opinion, the council and marina, in this case, haven't exactly been shown to do the best for the moorer and are looking after themselves and sweeping the moorer's position in all this under the carpet. I have nothing against paying council tax.

 

I do not follow your thinking that the moorer should be entirely grateful for the predicatment he finds himself in. Without having the full facts to hand, on the face of it, I could think of a better outcome than the marina and council pussy footing around for financial gain without commitment to supply the moorer with a definite residential status. Isn't it just their version of keeping their' heads down.

 

The licence that the OP is paying for is also worth naff all in a private marina. It is not legally necessary.

Edited August 31, 2015 by Higgs

[David Mack]

I do not follow your thinking that the moorer should be entirely grateful for the predicatment he finds himself in. Without having the full facts to hand, on the face of it, I could think of a better outcome than the marina and council pussy footing around for financial gain without commitment to supply the moorer with a definite residential status. Isn't it just their version of keeping their' heads down.

And I can think of an outcome where the local authority, when the issue is raised, deciding to take enforcement action against the marina for allowing liveaboards without planning permission, resulting in the OP being given notice to quit. Which is what I seem to recall happened a a midlands marina a couple of years ago.

 

Hence the 'keep your head down' recommendation.

[Higgs]

And I can think of an outcome where the local authority, when the issue is raised, deciding to take enforcement action against the marina for allowing liveaboards without planning permission, resulting in the OP being given notice to quit. Which is what I seem to recall happened a a midlands marina a couple of years ago.

 

Hence the 'keep your head down' recommendation.

 

 

Hope I'm following you correctly. The point you seem to be making here is that a marina was taken to book for allowing live aboards to live aboard, and that the marina didn't have planning permission and therefore the moorer was asked to leave.

 

It is not the case with the story, so far, in this thread. The OP is living aboard, on a non residential mooring, without planning permission. The council and marina have found an accommodation between themselves. Charging the moorer the most expensive council tax levy. Not, of course, in the house world.

Edited August 31, 2015 by Higgs

[b0atman]

To think this was sorted out years ago and yet it keeps resurfacing .

Residential you have rights to the mooring which has planning permission and thus pay council tax.

Live aboards may moor in marinas but with no rights and not for 100% of the time .

This I sorted out with a valuation office separate from local council area.

If council get shirty then ask them to find you suitable accommodation.

Edited August 31, 2015 by b0atman

[Higgs]

To think this was sorted out years ago and yet it keeps resurfacing .

Residential you have rights to the mooring which has planning permission and thus pay council tax.

Live aboards may moor in marinas but with no rights and not for 100% of the time .

This I sorted out with a valuation office separate from local council area.

If council get shirty then ask them to find you suitable accommodation.

 

 

Taking it for granted that the OP is full-time live aboard. He still seems to fall between your examples.

[MtB]

 

 

Taking it for granted that the OP is full-time live aboard. He still seems to fall between your examples.

 

 

The discussion has veered right off topic. What the OP actually asked was:

 

"Does anybody know what proportion of the licence fee goes towards councils?...."

 

Note he is asking if CRT pass on any of his licence fee to councils as council tax

 

The answer is no they don't. So that's all sorted out then!

[Higgs]

 

 

The discussion has veered right off topic. What the OP actually asked was:

 

"Does anybody know what proportion of the licence fee goes towards councils?...."

 

Note he is asking if CRT pass on any of his licence fee to councils as council tax

 

The answer is no they don't. So that's all sorted out then!

 

Please, MtB.

 

I will stop when it goes dead. In the meantime, you do not speak for other people. Threads do expand. It is still a "Living Afloat" topic.

[MtB]

I'm not speaking for other people.

 

I'm just pointing out that the OP's question has been answered, but you've managed to morph it into a rant about one of your many hobby horses. In this case a trivial 'advantage' being taken of boaters who are, in general, entirely happy with their situation.

[Paul C]

 

 

Hope I'm following you correctly. The point you seem to be making here is that a marina was taken to book for allowing live aboards to live aboard, and that the marina didn't have planning permission and therefore the moorer was asked to leave.

 

It is not the case with the story, so far, in this thread. The OP is living aboard, on a non residential mooring, without planning permission. The council and marina have found an accommodation between themselves. Charging the moorer the most expensive council tax levy. Not, of course, in the house world.

 

Point of order its the (2nd) cheapest council tax levy - band A. Yes, accepted that composite hereditamant is potentially cheaper still.

[Higgs]

I'm not speaking for other people.

 

I'm just pointing out that the OP's question has been answered, but you've managed to morph it into a rant about one of your many hobby horses. In this case a trivial 'advantage' being taken of boaters who are, in general, entirely happy with their situation.

 

 

You will note that there have been several other people in the discussion. " Boaters who are, in general, entirely happy with their situation", that was me, at one point. I may take the odd opportunity to bring into the conversation the subject of my "hobbyhorse", but it is in general not unconnected or too obscure, by way of a response to some else's post or point.

 

Lets face it, you've got your little foibles. Don't recall my mentioning having any tedium related to reading about Reginald or boilers.

[Higgs]

 

Point of order its the (2nd) cheapest council tax levy - band A. Yes, accepted that composite hereditamant is potentially cheaper still.

 

 

Too be honest, it is Band A that I recall from some time ago as being the Band used, in general. I am unaware of any other that may be used. From your post, there must at least be one higher than Band A, used for boats.

 

I'm getting my relative positions mixed up. Hereditament is potentially the cheapest. Band A, potentially the most expensive - Are there any other Bands, used for boats?

Edited August 31, 2015 by Higgs

[Paul C]

No I meant that if a marina were classed as a composite hereditament, then potentially the residential moorings within it which form part of it, their proportion of council tax could be lower. Council tax bands go from band A to band H. Here's a link to some example amounts:

 

http://www.edinburgh.gov.uk/info/20005/council_tax/620/council_tax_bands_and_charges

[Higgs]

No I meant that if a marina were classed as a composite hereditament, then potentially the residential moorings within it which form part of it, their proportion of council tax could be lower. Council tax bands go from band A to band H. Here's a link to some example amounts:

 

http://www.edinburgh.gov.uk/info/20005/council_tax/620/council_tax_bands_and_charges

 

 

I've a feeling that bricks and mortar Bands do no apply to the average boat. I thought Band A was set as the general limit of council tax levied on boats. As far as Hereditament is concerned, from my own situation, it is miles cheaper. You do not however have guaranteed exclusivity to any one mooring. In fact, it is a requirement that the boat is moved in accordance with this agreement after certain agreed times.

[Paul C]

 

 

I've a feeling that bricks and mortar Bands do no apply to the average boat.

 

They are not "bricks and mortar" bands - they are simply, bands. They apply to residential places far wider than simply houses - for example they apply to permanent residential moorings, and in certain situations boats (I believe here, for narrowboats on typical moorings, they'd apply to the mooring not the boat itself).

 

Full details are no doubt available by Googling the relevant terms.

[Higgs]

 

They are not "bricks and mortar" bands - they are simply, bands. They apply to residential places far wider than simply houses - for example they apply to permanent residential moorings, and in certain situations boats (I believe here, for narrowboats on typical moorings, they'd apply to the mooring not the boat itself).

 

Full details are no doubt available by Googling the relevant terms.

 

I can't dispute anything you say. All the Bands may indeed apply to various types of habitation. I'm in no hurry today to check it out, but I'll make an effort at some point.

[Chagall]

 

 

The average for band A is £845. And that is when you consider talking about your average Band A householder in a residence with all the perks of full residential status, receiving those services the council tax pays for.

 

It would be more acceptable to accept your term of "basic", if the mooring was valued by Hereditament. The moorer in this case seems to be short changed, He is not offered the security of exclusivity of mooring that Band A would/should afford him. What bugs me is that it is still unofficial. If anything, it is the council and the marina who are benefitting from this moorer. They both have his business and they sit on some fence and the moorer is conveniently trapped unless he moves.

 

Without full facts, it still looks like being taken advantage of. You apparently think that live aboards in non residential marinas are getting something for nothing. That's not true, they pay a mooring fee. They pay a licence fee. They pay a connection fee. In my opinion, the council and marina, in this case, haven't exactly been shown to do the best for the moorer and are looking after themselves and sweeping the moorer's position in all this under the carpet. I have nothing against paying council tax.

 

I do not follow your thinking that the moorer should be entirely grateful for the predicatment he finds himself in. Without having the full facts to hand, on the face of it, I could think of a better outcome than the marina and council pussy footing around for financial gain without commitment to supply the moorer with a definite residential status. Isn't it just their version of keeping their' heads down.

 

The licence that the OP is paying for is also worth naff all in a private marina. It is not legally necessary.

 

Thank you, you have grasped the situation and explain the predicament well. We are indeed in the middle of dealings, and if we do not "put up and shut up" as advised by others (which I dont actually agree with) we will be forced to leave and find extremely scarce moorings in the area. Tantamount to blackmail. Band A in this area is £1027 and although I do get the single occupancy discount many on here are facing the full amount and dated back a full year, just because they can.

 

The thing is I do not object to paying CT, I live on my boat and I benefit from all the services provided in the tax, its just that despite paying in triplicate to moor on my 12 inch strip of jetty I have no security of tenure. I'm not listed in the postal address and for any online forms I may only have the marina address. Insurance for my car is £120 extra because my car is in a public car park...et cetera. I could go on but then I'd be another moaning old git. (not complaining you must understand!..sigh)

Edited August 31, 2015 by Chagall