Poor Quality New Boats

[Gary Peacock]

Firstly let's not get too specific without you can back it up legally!

 

We have all heard the horror stories about rubbish boats and rip off boat builders, hopefully it isn't really that bad and these are fairly rare events.

 

But I do feel sure that there are a lot of lessons that could be learned from forum members experiences both with their own boats but also life experience in resolving disputes.

 

So if you have had a problem please tell us how it was resolved or how you would go about resolving it please speak up.

 

Comment would also be very useful on how to avoid any potential pitfalls too.

 

Maybe when this thread runs it's course we could collate the useful content for those who might be contemplating a new build in the future?

 

I will try and play the devils advocate a bit on this, being on the other side of the fence it is sometimes less clear cut!

 

For a bit of background on the type of thing we are on about have a look HERE this is still largely unresolved today!

 

There is another thread running on another post discussing a similar issue if someone would like to point this thread in the direction of the said blog feel free but remember there can be too sides to every story.

[blackrose]

Since we're not allowed to name & shame on the forum isn't this idea a bit of a non-starter?

 

By the way (Jon), from your perspective, how come we're allowed to say this or that bit of kit is crap, but not permitted to do the same about boat builders?

 

For example, I've seen lots of threads saying things like "cheap Chinese Kippur generators won't last," so why can't we recommend not to use a particular builder because they build poor quality boats?

Edited February 28, 2007 by blackrose

[Gary Peacock]

There is a interesting article on Narrow Boat Worlds breaking news HERE about what disputes can end in.

[Tommo]

Firstly let's not get too specific without you can back it up legally!

Comment would also be very useful on how to avoid any potential pitfalls too.

 

 

 

Well to start with, do not part with large wedges of cash when you have nothing to show for it.

 

Ian

[Pirate]

I notice that my name has been bought up and my build Blogg bought to the attention of this forum, I`d just like to clear a few things up if I may.

 

I have never slagged off my boat builder on this or any other forum, nor do I intend to now, I have never even mentioned that I may have a problem with him.

I have always had a build Blog as many of you know and it has always been updated througout the build, I dont see why I should have it any different now just because it might not suit my builder. It is simply my account of the build, make of it what you will, and decide for yourself, the build quality.

 

I know there are other owners on this forum with boats from the same builder, they may or may not have had good boats, best of luck to them, I hope they are happy with theirs, and that it meets all their expectations for the money they paid. I think they will know how long I have been afloat and unfortunately my boat does not meet my expectations after only 10 weeks.

 

When you spend a huge ammount of money as we have, then get the problems we have got, it`s enough to make you cry, and indeed cry my wife has. We bought our boat in good faith and paid up all money promptly and up front, we never haggled and we accepted a few of the mistakes the builder had made, and when we got our boat after waiting over a year we were very excited, relieved and pleased.

 

That was of course untill we decided to set off on our cruise and got the problems we got and the response from the builder that we got. If only my builder was as willing to help us as he was to take our money.

 

Should I leave my Blogg as it was, or update it to as it is now? That was a hard question for me to answer, I may be shooting myself in the foot when it comes to selling, however since I got in touch with my builder on January 1st I am still awaiting a response and these problems are very serious indeed, I have water in the electrics tripping it off for one, and they are not getting any better, they are so serious, I am now having to crane it out and put it on a hardstanding and rent a property out to live in, .and who cares?

 

It is because of this, that now after two months waiting and watching my boat with all my money in it fall apart before my very eyes that I can honestly say that I dont give monkeys F$%k what you or anybody else thinks about my Blogg, however please dont say that I am making it up. It is still costing me mega bucks now, I have paid over £2500 in legal fees to date, then I have a crane to hire and hardstanding to pay for and also a roof over my head to find, this is no joke nor a vendetta.

 

There is mention of another owner on my Blogg, this guy has no internet or pc, but he asked me if I made a Blogg page, could he write his feelings on it, about his boat, I set up the page and he wrote it in his own words, what he felt, it`s nothing what so ever to do with me, other than that, and he has put his own name to it, If I had thought for one minute it would make my Blogg look like a lie I would have removed the link, indeed now I may do exactly that.

 

I have this week met another two disgruntled owners but I never mentioned my Blogg to them, and I`m not telling you lot who they are, but they are out there, however I did learn a lot.

 

Anyway back to this topic, I say a big YES name and shame them, if they can get away with fleecing us then we can get away with returning the favour and theres only one thing you can do to get the problems sorted and that is fork out more money for lawyers, or the builders will just laugh at you, they know it costs mega bucks

 

A New Moto should be, If I`m going down they`re going down with me.

Edited February 28, 2007 by Pirate

[blackrose]

I notice that my name has been bought up and my build Blogg bought to the attention of this forum, I`d just like to clear a few things up if I may.

 

I have never slagged off my boat builder on this or any other forum, nor do I intend to now, I have never even mentioned that I may have a problem with him.

I have always had a build Blog as many of you know and it has always been updated througout the build, I dont see why I should have it any different now just because it might not suit my builder. It is simply my account of the build, make of it what you will, and decide for yourself, the build quality.

 

I know there are other owners on this forum with boats from the same builder, they may or may not have had good boats, best of luck to them, I hope they are happy with theirs, and that it meets all their expectations for the money they paid. I think they will know how long I have been afloat and unfortunately my boat does not meet my expectations after only 10 weeks.

 

When you spend a huge ammount of money as we have, then get the problems we have got, it`s enough to make you cry, and indeed cry my wife has. We bought our boat in good faith and paid up all money promptly and up front, we never haggled and we accepted a few of the mistakes the builder had made, and when we got our boat after waiting over a year we were very excited, relieved and pleased.

 

That was of course untill we decided to set off on our cruise and got the problems we got and the response from the builder that we got. If only my builder was as willing to help us as he was to take our money.

 

Should I leave my Blogg as it was, or update it to as it is now? That was a hard question for me to answer, I may be shooting myself in the foot when it comes to selling, however since I got in touch with my builder on January 1st I am still awaiting a response and these problems are very serious indeed, I have water in the electrics tripping it off for one, and they are not getting any better, they are so serious, I am now having to crane it out and put it on a hardstanding and rent a property out to live in, .and who cares?

 

It is because of this, that now after two months waiting and watching my boat with all my money in it fall apart before my very eyes that I can honestly say that I dont give monkeys F$%k what you or anybody else thinks about my Blogg, however please dont say that I am making it up. It is still costing me mega bucks now, I have paid over £2500 in legal fees to date, then I have a crane to hire and hardstanding to pay for and also a roof over my head to find, this is no joke nor a vendetta.

 

There is mention of another owner on my Blogg, this guy has no internet or pc, but he asked me if I made a Blogg page, could he write his feelings on it, about his boat, I set up the page and he wrote it in his own words, what he felt, it`s nothing what so ever to do with me, other than that, and he has put his own name to it, If I had thought for one minute it would make my Blogg look like a lie I would have removed the link, indeed now I may do exactly that.

 

I have this week met another two disgruntled owners but I never mentioned my Blogg to them, however I did learn a lot.

 

Anyway back to this topic, I say a big YES name and shame them, if they can get away with fleecing us then we can get away with returning the favour

 

I think I would feel exactly the same in your circumstances. I can't find your build blog, has it been removed?

Edited February 28, 2007 by blackrose

[Pirate]

I think I would feel exactly the same in your circumstances. I can't find your build blog, has it been removed?

 

I dont know, I saw it in this Thread

 

http://www.canalworld.net/forums/index.php...c=7472&st=0

Edited February 28, 2007 by Pirate

[charles123]

Just been reading it, I really feel for you, its a horror story, maesbury seem to have a good reputation as far as I know

 

http://nbwestwood.blogspot.com/

[smileypete]

Comment would also be very useful on how to avoid any potential pitfalls too.

 

For someone new to boating I'd advise them to ask the builder if they can see a newly completed or almost completed boat. Then, ask if an independent surveyor could assess the boat.

 

If the answer isn't 'yes' and 'yes' without very good reason I'd advise them to walk away.

 

If the survey of an existing boat turns up many or serious faults, they should walk away too.

 

Once the build is under way, get a good surveyor to check it at major stages before payment for the next stage.

 

This is a bit harsh on all the good builders out there, but should go a long way to filtering out bad builders or workmanship.

 

OK the survey fees might end up costing a K or more, but not tooo much on the price of a new boat.

 

cheers,

Pete.

[charles123]

Is there any connection between the damp areas and the windows being welded up, if they took the sprayfoam off to weld them up and not replaced it then there will be condensatoin behing the ply panels and it will stain the wood and run down. Cant see the water getting in from the hull, its a good quality one from Tyler?

 

I can see how the paint has come off the back deck, the gloss has not bonded to the primer coat because its probably not been rubbed down first to prepare the surface nor undercoated, they have glossed straight onto the primer as far as I can see

 

Charles

[Pirate]

Is there any connection between the damp areas and the windows being welded up, if they took the sprayfoam off to weld them up and not replaced it then there will be condensatoin behing the ply panels and it will stain the wood and run down. Cant see the water getting in from the hull, its a good quality one from Tyler?

I can see how the paint has come off the back deck, the gloss has not bonded to the primer coat because its probably not been rubbed down first to prepare the surface nor undercoated, they have glossed straight onto the primer as far as I can see

 

Charles

 

No

 

Windows were cut out of steel Hull

 

You really need to read the Blogg more closely, I Agree

 

I wonder if they prepared the sides of the boat for painting?

Edited February 28, 2007 by Pirate

[magnetman]

If you get done over by a boatyard, a boat builder, or anyone else involved in a legitimate business then you should make sure that they do NOT get away with it because it will only encourage them to do it again.

[blackrose]

[/color]

 

I dont know, I saw it in this Thread

 

http://www.canalworld.net/forums/index.php...c=7472&st=0

 

I see, I thought your blog was hosted on this site rather than pasted as a link from another, which is why I couldn't find it.

 

Yes, real horror show. These things should be publicised as much as possible. I can understand forum rules prohibiting unwarranted negative publicity, but when you've got good evidence in the form of pictures then it speaks for itself. I think you're actually being very reasonable - if it were me and the builder didn't want to know it would be black balaclava time! :ph34r:

Edited February 28, 2007 by blackrose

[gaggle]

the one thing i will say is , i was very,very unhappy with sts boats of bootle and their response to my complaints and i am still unhappy,anyone thinking of having a boat built can read into that what they like.

i could not and would not recommend them.

[blackrose]

I will say that Liverpool boats cut a few corners on my lined sailaway but the New Boat Co who I went through, eventually put these problems right and I must have had about £700 reimbursed for work I had done and then NBC did a job under warranty that probably would have cost £600 + dry dock if I'd had to pay for it. I also managed to black the boat at the same time so that was a bonus.

 

I'm happy with the outcome and if it is possible to love an inanimate object then I love my boat.

 

The black water that Pirate experienced dripping through his lining reminded me that during my first winter I noticed some small black stains on my lining where the walls met the ceiling. By the time I saw them the stains were dry and I wiped them off with the green plastic abrasive side of a wet washing up sponge. They never recurred and I've had it very hot in here this winter & during that last cold snap. I'm assuming it was either somthing on the other side of the lining or a bit of condensation running down the back of the roof struts - is this normal?

Edited February 28, 2007 by blackrose

[Gary Peacock]

Now I will give you another perspective on this first a general one and then a factual boating one.

 

I used to work for a finance companies debt recovery unit on the sharp end with the bailiffs one of the most common scenarios was a punter would by something on finance and stop paying after a few months it would normally be just prior to the warranty expiring their common argument for stopping payments was that the item had developed faults and they weren't going to pay until they were resolved. This would obviously cause loads of delay and involve the manufacturer and sometimes depending on if the product was seized and the amount of the outstanding debt result in the case being dropped.

 

Now to the boating world in the last 4 years we have had two case of not being paid the full final payment (Not large amounts but money regardless) now believe it or not this is very common in the boat building game from talking to other builders.

 

Now one of these cases was just one of those disputes that occurs in business every now and again where you get the "He says, You said" type of dispute with nothing in writing and the only sensible form of resolution is to sit down and resolve it sensibly which is what happened and everybody is happy and still talking to one another.

 

The other was the complete opposite they arrived very early one morning and simply took the boat without paying the final payment (Which was probably theft!) they then made a part payment and when invoiced for the balance went very quiet. It wasn't until we started to charge them interest on the outstanding amount that they then appeared with a long list of problems (Months) had past by now. Invited to a meeting to try and resolve this the customer arrived drunk and became abusive before storming out and again communication ceased. (It was much more funny than that but I wont go into detail.)

 

The matter was passed to a debt collection agency who went to serve documents (You know big ugly guy in leather coat who doesn't leave at first when invited!) anyway this again resulted in long and growing list of problems claimed to be the reason for non payment.

 

The end result was it was costing more to pursue it than it was worth so we laid off the heavies and haven't heard anything since!

 

I suppose we lost in the end and they saved £4K but it was nearly an exact rerun of my days debt collecting so I think you can see from this that you have to be careful when being judgemental.

Edited March 1, 2007 by Gary Peacock

[Bones]

Gary,

I persume in your last post you are not specifically refering to Pirates problems when you speak of judgements, and are rather raising a completely separate point that not only are some builders not up to scratch but that some customers (not pirate) are not up to scratch either?

Bones

[Gary Peacock]

Gary,

I persume in your last post you are not specifically refering to Pirates problems when you speak of judgements, and are rather raising a completely separate point that not only are some builders not up to scratch but that some customers (not pirate) are not up to scratch either?

Bones

 

No I was just been general, I think Pirate seems to have demonstrated his problems are valid.

 

But climbing back over the fence the ball is now back in the hands of the builder, if they don't want it to all end in tears then they could still resolve the problems, save face and their future reputation.

[anhar]

Gary,

I persume in your last post you are not specifically refering to Pirates problems when you speak of judgements, and are rather raising a completely separate point that not only are some builders not up to scratch but that some customers (not pirate) are not up to scratch either?

Bones

Yes I agree with Bones. I don't think dodgy customers are in the same league as dodgy builders.

 

People buying boats will likely be sticking a substantial part of their savings into it. It means everything to them and it is heartbreaking and possibly financially ruinous if they end up with junk. It's not merely a business deal.

 

Builders on the other hand are in business and take the risk of the occasional lousy customer. That goes with the territory of selling anything to the public. Whilst they may lose money, it doesn't hit them personally in the same way as it does a customer who buys a substandard boat or where their builder goes bust leaving them with a part built boat at best or at worst, nothing.

 

regards

Steve

Edited March 1, 2007 by anhar

[Guest]

Yes I agree with Bones. I don't think dodgy customers are in the same league as dodgy builders.

 

People buying boats will likely be sticking a substantial part of their savings into it. It means everything to them and it is heartbreaking and possibly financially ruinous if they end up with junk. It's not merely a business deal.

 

Builders on the other hand are in business and take the risk of the occasional lousy customer. That goes with the territory of selling anything to the public. Whilst they may lose money, it doesn't hit them personally in the same way as it does a customer who buys a substandard boat or where their builder goes bust leaving them with a part built boat at best or at worst, nothing.

 

regards

Steve

Not my experience in business. One rip off merchant to whom I contracted almost cost me my home, but I won't go into details on a public forum. That aside though, I feel sorry for any individual (or contractor) who is hung out to dry by unscrupulous traders of any sort. My own dad got ripped off some years ago, and that caused a lot of upset for him.

[Freetochat]

This is all very interesting for me, when my intention is to have a boat built in the coming months. I fear though that my purchase will be an uphill struggle. I will not be paying any money upfront to a builder, but will pay stage payments on completion of the stage and legal transfer of the boat. I would be prepared for the funds to be held on account independantly, and the boat will be examined by a surveyor and critical stages during the build.

 

It will be interesting to see how many builders will entertain my terms and conditions instead of having cash in advance to fund his cashflow. For me though, the incentive for the builder is that the work is completed without delay and to standard, and the security is that having paid in advance, my money will not be used to fund the company as in the recent 'hamper' scandle.

[Bones]

No I was just been general, I think Pirate seems to have demonstrated his problems are valid.

 

But climbing back over the fence the ball is now back in the hands of the builder, if they don't want it to all end in tears then they could still resolve the problems, save face and their future reputation.

 

 

Oh good. I wasn't sure, so I am pleased to hear that. I really hope they do resolve the problem for Pirate, and I for one am surprised that they haven't! My boat is in better condition, even the paint work, - and that really IS saying something!

 

There are very few boat builders I would actually trust, and it is the immediate follow up care that is just as essential as the build itself in my opinion.

[Gary Peacock]

Ok back to the chase what we are really talking about is cases like THIS from a while ago on Narrow Boat World, it was a while a go now but it seems this kind of thing still goes on.

 

So why don't we start at the beginning and talk about how to find a hopefully reputable builder. (I suppose we could call it best practise for buying a boat.)

 

Adverts?

Shows?

Magazine features?

Recommendations?

Visits?

Quotations?

Contracts?

RCD compliance?

BMF/CBA membership?

 

Etc, etc.

 

I am sure most of you who had new boats built have been through this procedure.

Edited March 1, 2007 by Gary Peacock

[Guest]

Ok back to the chase what we are really talking about is cases like THIS from a while ago on Narrow Boat World, it was a while a go now but it seems this kind of thing still goes on.

 

So why don't we start at the beginning and talk about how to find a hopefully reputable builder. (I suppose we could call it best practise for buying a boat.)

 

Adverts?

Shows?

Magazine features?

Recommendations?

Visits?

Quotations?

Contracts?

RCD compliance?

BMF/CBA membership?

 

Etc, etc.

 

I am sure most of you who had new boats built have been through this procedure.

All good points Gary, but it is worth noting that a lot of the more slick con merchants have a lot of these things in place anyway. I know of at least one boatbuilder that appeared to have all the safeguards in place, but the boat supplied was dire. I think as you say, that recommendations, and talking to other boat owners in general are ways of sorting out the genuine builders from the sharks.

[Bones]

There are very few boat builders I would trust these days, but something I would look out for is follow up care. I definately wouldn't put all my savings into having a boat built, it seems too risky. Rather I would look for a second hand boat and perhaps pay the money for an internal refit if necessary.

 

How many non-payers and/or late payers does it take to put a boat builder in trouble?