Poor Quality New Boats

[Gary Peacock]

2 An independant third party (mutually agreed by builder and buyer) should hold the funds for the full purchase price. (An interest bearing account would cover the costs).

 

Now I really do like that it would have saved us a lot of money and wasted time over the last month.

 

I will definitely be doing some work on that in the future.

 

Generally I do agree with the surveyor but you need to be careful! There is another thread running at the moment on this if someone can find it.

[Guest]

2 An independant third party (mutually agreed by builder and buyer) should hold the funds for the full purchase price. (An interest bearing account would cover the costs).

Now I really do like that it would have saved us a lot of money and wasted time over the last month.

 

I will definitely be doing some work on that in the future.

 

Generally I do agree with the surveyor but you need to be careful! There is another thread running at the moment on this if someone can find it.

 

The customers Solicitor???

 

I agree about surveyors, I talked to one to whom I would not have entrusted the surveying of a dogs kennel, let alone a several grand boat. On talking to a few others though they seemed OK. The one I used eventually was very thorough and "hands on." However he wasn't the lowest fee!

[blackrose]

A neighbour of mine recently ordered a sailaway from Tim Tyler. For £34K for a basic sprayfoamed sailaway it's quite an expensive boat, but he had only laid out £200 until a couple of weeks before the end of the build which seems virtually risk free. I had never heard of this kind of deal before.

 

I have not read the blog in detail - the pictures were enough for me - but I think Pirate's problems started as soon as the shell wasn't sprayfoamed and the PU board wasn't installed properly by the fitter.

Edited March 1, 2007 by blackrose

[Gary Peacock]

A neighbour of mine recently ordered a sailaway from Tim Tyler. For £34K for a basic sprayfoamed sailaway it's quite an expensive boat, but he had only laid out £200 until a couple of weeks before the end of the build which seems virtually risk free. I had never heard of this kind of deal before.

 

I have not read the blog in detail - the pictures were enough for me - but I think Pirate's problems started as soon as the shell wasn't sprayfoamed and the PU board wasn't installed properly by the fitter.

 

You can do this quite easily with a stock hull a cancellation during build just means the "next" one is early!

 

We had a customer cancel on us the day before the steel was due to be ordered which turned the air fairly blue, at 8 weeks before we are committed to build their paticular boat along with it filling a 18/20 week build slot. A cancellation so near costs us money but it does happen. In this case we kept £500.00 of the £2K deposit and the customer said this was excessive!

[mikevye]

My new boat is in the middle of its build and the contract is standard BMF. I wouldn't use a builder who wasn't BMF/CBA. The contract isn't perfect but it is probably as good as it gets. I agreed a mod with the builder to strike out the inflation clause whereby they could increase the price after commencement of the build due to inflation.

 

One diffficulty with the contract is reservation of title on bought in shells etc. If the builder goes bust and hasn't paid for a third party supplied shell where their supplier has reservation of title, the boat buyer cannot obtain possession of the part built boat despite having made stage payments and despite the contract transferring title to the customer, because the builder never themselves had possession.

 

That is more to do with going broke though. On the question of seriously substandard boats, that cannot be prevented by any contract. Ultimately the buyer relies here on having a decent firm building the boat, who do things properly and who rectify any faults. The Westwood story is very frightening for new boat buyers. I find it incomprehensible that any reader or boater such as mikevye can express a lack of sympathy with the plight of Pirate and others in a similar position by suggesting their reports are falsified, exaggerated or their own fault. What a disgusting line to take.

 

Steve

 

Unlike your entry Anhar my comments were specific to a forum topic and questioned the morality of raising the issue in the first place given the limited if any response the accused could reply to in his/her defence, in this instance the need to express an opinion for or against the case in question didn't arise or the need to be sympathetic. Its as if this topic was heaven sent for the individual in question given that he has raised the issue on the internet and his blog has now been totally biased towards his case for a substantial time. Unlike yourself I await the outcome because the case presented on this forum is so one sided as to be almost unbelievable. Am I to believe that a builder has knowingly gone to fit out a boat that would give these problems such a short space of time after being built? I use "fit out" because the shell is a Tim Tyler boat which must have a considerable bearing on the case. A sum of £100k build costs has been thrown in the ring yet the menu price from the Maesbury website would indicate a target price of £75-£78k. No there's something that doesn't stack up here and for once in my life I'm prepared to sit on the fence to await the outcome, unlike yourself jumping in with both feet. On a seperate issue I use my own name and photo on the forum and do not hide my identity in anyway. Whilst not criticising the use of handles I do worry about anyone who puts a photo of a famous actor in his profile and suggests its him!

[Gary Peacock]

Having had both sides of the story this will be resolved one way or another! So maybe we should let due process happen and have an update on any result in time?

 

I do think leaving that particular dispute at arms length for the moment that we are raising some worthwhile input here.

 

One think that as come out that I think might be a good idea is that someone start a thread for the positive recommendations of satisfied customers.

 

I know the boat builders would like this I don't like using recommendations I have arranged for one it always feels a bit suspect!

 

But having an independent recommendation who is going to be able to give an impartial opinion if messaged etc would be a good thing.

[Phil Speight]

Because I was naive and bloody stupid.

 

I have been very fortunate I have a Tyler shell and have met Tim and he knows of all my problems going back over the entire build, (my lawyers had to negotiate with him months before my shell arrived. He also knows that the blame was tried to be pushed onto him for these problems.

 

I have nothing but great respect for Tim and his work and have told him so to his face, he is one of the finest builders out there.

 

I would rather you didn`t discuss this with my builder

I won`t say a word to Maesbury - we aren`t some sort of club or anything like it , it`s simply business - I need to sell paint , Maesbury buy it and I get on well with the proprietor on that level. It becomes a problem ( and this applies to absolutely everyone and anyone who buys our products) when the paint gets blamed for a painter`s poor workmanship. Good luck - I really hope the situation gets fairly and satisfactorily resolved before too long.

Cheers

Phil

A ps - Believe it or not I HAVE just now spoken to Maesbury because they rang me as I was just finishing the above. Barry is unwilling to get into what he sees as a slanging match on the internet . I suggest most strongly that you and he meet with an arbitrator to sort this out. There is , I have to say in the interest of fairness, another side to this story. If Maesbury Marine do not wish to discuss things in an open forum ( which would get no-one anywhere anyway ) then I can`t repeat what has been said to me. It`s not a question of believing either party or siding with friends , I just wish , without prejudice , to make clear to everyone who is following this thread that like all stories this one has two sides to it. We are only reading one of them.

[blackrose]

You can do this quite easily with a stock hull a cancellation during build just means the "next" one is early!

 

We had a customer cancel on us the day before the steel was due to be ordered which turned the air fairly blue, at 8 weeks before we are committed to build their paticular boat along with it filling a 18/20 week build slot. A cancellation so near costs us money but it does happen. In this case we kept £500.00 of the £2K deposit and the customer said this was excessive!

 

Difficult to argue with an ex-debt collector!

 

In that case I suppose builders cut the windows & vents out right at the end as well as side hatches, because few customers would want exactly the same thing. My neighbours went for 6 portholes down each side. There's not much a builder can do about boat length though is there? Is 62' a stock size? That's what they ordered.

Edited March 1, 2007 by blackrose

[magnetman]

Out of interest, is a one year warranty normal when buying a new canal boat, and if so is it acceptable given the amount of money which has been spent? I know a 'warranty' might not be worth much but I am under the impression that with things like cars you do have guaranteed repair of faults for well over a year. And the average cost of a new canal boat far exceeds the average cost of a new car. It's serious money.

Edited March 1, 2007 by magnetman

[Phil Speight]

Having had both sides of the story this will be resolved one way or another! So maybe we should let due process happen and have an update on any result in time?

 

I do think leaving that particular dispute at arms length for the moment that we are raising some worthwhile input here.

 

One think that as come out that I think might be a good idea is that someone start a thread for the positive recommendations of satisfied customers.

 

I know the boat builders would like this I don't like using recommendations I have arranged for one it always feels a bit suspect!

 

But having an independent recommendation who is going to be able to give an impartial opinion if messaged etc would be a good thing.

Good idea. I for one have always been happy to pass on the names of boat builders I know to be good and honest - and there are a lot of them. So many times on this forum I`ve said go to this or that builder - or I`ve presented a whole raft of them - only for someone to say "What about so and so?" Well , if they`re not on the list I don`t recommend them. If it`s because I have no experience of their work I`ll say so. If I say nothing - surely you can read between the lines!

Cheers

Phil

[Gary Peacock]

Difficult to argue with an ex-debt collector!

 

In that case I suppose builders cut the windows & vents out right at the end as well as side hatches, because few customers would want exactly the same thing. My neighbours went for 6 portholes down each side. There's not much a builder can do about boat length though is there? Is 62' a stock size? That's what they ordered.

 

Many hull builders supply many small fitters these will usually take anything you have because they don't have a potential customer at that stage, if not you can usually make a hull you want rid of attractive to them!

 

We don't have that situation unfortunately because all our stuff being one offs once we start we have to finish it more or less like the original customer wanted it.

[Gary Peacock]

Out of interest, is a one year warranty normal when buying a new canal boat, and if so is it acceptable given the amount of money which has been spent? I know a 'warranty' might not be worth much but I am under the impression that with things like cars you do have guaranteed repair of faults for well over a year. And the average cost of a new canal boat far exceeds the average cost of a new car. It's serious money.

 

The one year under consumer law is fairly normal but most of the major lumps have two minimum and major engine components on some engines have five.

 

Most hull builders wouldn't hesitate to rectify a hull problem if one developed out of warranty because of protecting their reputation with any reputable hull builder this would be a rare event anyway.

 

It's very much the same with interior fit outs within reason most builders will undertake work outside the one year warranty if it's down to their defect but you usually have to humour them a bit and maybe offer to take the boat to them when passing etc. Most builders can sort thing easier on site providing they are on the water that is!

 

It's like most things it's a lot about relationships I would like to think that on a project the size of a boat build that it should not only be about a customer relationship but also a bout a more general friendship and this can go a long way at a later date.

 

The two areas I have had fun with have been paint/blacking and nasty cheap electrical equipment! Both have caused me problems and cost money.

[anhar]

A neighbour of mine recently ordered a sailaway from Tim Tyler. For £34K for a basic sprayfoamed sailaway it's quite an expensive boat, but he had only laid out £200 until a couple of weeks before the end of the build which seems virtually risk free. I had never heard of this kind of deal before.

 

I have not read the blog in detail - the pictures were enough for me - but I think Pirate's problems started as soon as the shell wasn't sprayfoamed and the PU board wasn't installed properly by the fitter.

Mike you can get that sort of deal on a sailaway but for those of us buying fully fitted, I have only ever come across one firm who are prepared to build without stage payments. It almost doesn't exist. Just about every firm expects stage payments on fully fitted boats and quite understandably really. I don't blame builders for that, it would be far too risky for them to build a complete boat on the strength of a small deposit.

 

The sole firm I found who does supply fully fitted on that basis is Ken Yates, who work on a 10% deposit with no stage payments and the balance payable on delivery. Which is about as fair as it is possible to be. If you pay the deposit by credit card then there is virtually no risk to the buyer. However they are at the budget end of the market and their range of boats doesn't suit everyone.

 

regards

Steve

[Gary Peacock]

OK

 

I think we have covered contracts and stage payments in a bit of detail and we now can understand a bit about how it works for both the builder and customer. (Anymore questions feel free to ask)

 

So why don't we go right back to the begining now and discuss how you would go about selecting a boat builder let's pretend that your completely new to the game and no nothing about boats!

 

Before picking up the phone where would you start to research magazines, books, boatclubs? (We will try and move this on in logical stages if we can!)

 

Now I think the first thing I would do is rent a boat and speak to people.

[Bones]

I would probably find this forum and PM everyone who had a new boat that I liked the look of and ask what they thought of it, what the process was like, and how much extra it cost them. I would also want to know about follow up care.

 

However, people who are having a new baot built don't always know that places like this forum actually exist. I would look through magazines, but even then I don't think that would help me - Heron was still being advertised during the collapse!

 

I would probably look for a list of builders on the internet and then go and visit them over a period of time, sometimes wtih an appointment and sometimes without.

[Stephen Sugg]

I would probably find this forum and PM everyone who had a new boat that I liked the look of and ask what they thought of it, what the process was like, and how much extra it cost them. I would also want to know about follow up care.

 

However, people who are having a new baot built don't always know that places like this forum actually exist. I would look through magazines, but even then I don't think that would help me - Heron was still being advertised during the collapse!

 

I would probably look for a list of builders on the internet and then go and visit them over a period of time, sometimes wtih an appointment and sometimes without.

 

A couple of years ago when we were looking at buying a boat to live on (in hindsight, lucky we didn't, but there you go) I mentioned the builders name on this forum and got some very helpful PM's about it. They made my mind up for me. If people that know a lot more than me have their doubts then I'm not going to get invloved. This forum saved me from an expensive mistake. I would always visit a lot of builders, ask about owners clubs, do thorough web searches and even chance my arm walking around somewhere like Braunston Marina to look at others boats from the builders that are up for sale. Basically the same as I do for a new car......you can never have enough information........

[Gary Peacock]

OK

 

I will give you another "Pearl of Wisdom"

 

So what's in a name?

 

Here is a fairly well known example:-

 

Ledgard Bridge Boat Company

 

Ledgard Bridge Boat Co

 

Ledgard Bridge Boat Company Ltd

 

Ledgard Bridge Boats Limited

 

People say they have a Ledgard Bridge boat but who built it?

I would like to think the boats we finished last month are better or at least the equal of those produced by the company in it previous guises, but you can see where I am heading.

 

Companies evolve over the years ownership/management and staff change and often a company will be bought by another purely to improve an existing companies perceived image.

 

Remember Warble's transformation into part of Lee's Narrowboats have a look HERE and look at the Company Overview!

 

When viewing a companies boats you should be asking to see the last boat they built not the 2003 Crick show boat!

[Keeping Up]

Talking to people who own their boats, has to be the first essential. Talking to hire-fleet owners can also tell you a lot.

 

We'd been hiring for many years and had met a few boat builders in passing, so we were beginning to get an idea of what we were looking for. Then after we'd bought our first boat (second hand) we cruised the system for 4 years looking hard at every boat we could, and talking to the owners of any that we particularly admired. They were usually delighted to give us a guided tour.

 

Also during that period we bought every magazine that was published, and went to every rally and show. We spent a lot of time talking to boatbuilders at the shows, and following up referrals to happy customers from them.

 

Most boatbuilders either offered us their standard boat ("take it or leave it" so we left it) or said they would build anything we designed (we couldn't). Stoke on Trent were one of the few who would use their own design skills to turn our concepts into solid reality so we started investigating in earnest (their history, their past customer list, etc) and visiting their works regularly. One particularly good lead was that they had recently supplied the shells to English County Cruises (Wrenbury) to replace their ageing Harborough hire-boats, and since we wanted to have our ageing Harborough boat replaced, we went to Wrenbury and talked to the hire company there (and went on several of their boats that afternoon).

 

We still think we made a good choice.

[gaggle]

all tradesmen /companies pay fee,s to use the various logo,s of all types of associations , federations of this and that.

it could be british marine assoiciation , the federation of master builders and as far as i am concerned they are not worth a carrot to customers, all they do is create a false sense of security to the buyer who see,s the logo,s as a sign of trustworthyness.

in the event of something going wrong these organisations are usually only able to TRY and get some kind of arbitration, the offender who is being complained about can in fact just tell them and the customer to go pluck a duck.

 

firms membership of such things give no protection to customers in any real sense, treat them as nice decorations on company letterheads and stationary because that is all they are in reality.

[Gary Peacock]

all tradesmen /companies pay fee,s to use the various logo,s of all types of associations , federations of this and that.

it could be british marine assoiciation , the federation of master builders and as far as i am concerned they are not worth a carrot to customers, all they do is create a false sense of security to the buyer who see,s the logo,s as a sign of trustworthyness.

in the event of something going wrong these organisations are usually only able to TRY and get some kind of arbitration, the offender who is being complained about can in fact just tell them and the customer to go pluck a duck.

 

firms membership of such things give no protection to customers in any real sense, treat them as nice decorations on company letterheads and stationary because that is all they are in reality.

 

From the protection offered side gaggle is right a lot of security is only as valid as the various organisations make it and how well they are prepared to stand by their codes of conduct etc. After all they aren't the law and the law does sort out the kinds of dispute that take place with boats I'm sure when it's needed.

 

The one thing the BMF does that is worthwhile is the support it gives to it's members in the way of technical support when dealing with the RCD in all honesty it would be very difficult to get much in the way of compliance without their support or the services of one of the RCD conformity consultants. In reality the BMF membership costs less than having one boats conformity overseen using a consultant so membership is quite good value.

 

I spoke to a chap today who is having a boat built in the grey market with no documentation and no attempt at compliance in anyway he's very happy at the money he his saving too. So I can't endorse it but it seems if you know where to go you can by a boat in this way at a saving.

 

So how many of you would be prepared to have a boat built in this way if it would save you say £10K? For these companies that risk prosecution doing it there must be the customers willing to deal with them?

Edited March 3, 2007 by Gary Peacock

[Freetochat]

I spoke to a chap today who is having a boat built in the grey market with no documentation and no attempt at compliance in anyway he's very happy at the money he his saving too. So I can't endorse it but it seems if you know where to go you can by a boat in this way at a saving.

 

 

Are the compliance documents not required for BW licensing etc.?

[Gary Peacock]

Are the compliance documents not required for BW licensing etc.?

 

No just a BSS certificate and this doesn't require any legal conformity just completion of the BSS tick list which is far less detailed than the RCD.

 

Their was a rumour a couple of months ago that BW were going to ask for the RCD documentation but they backtracked on it because it was apparently one regions idea not official policy!

 

The grey builders are aware that BSS offers a back door onto the water and effectively helps them to conduct business.

[Freetochat]

Thanks for that Gary!

[John Orentas]

No just a BSS certificate and this doesn't require any legal conformity just completion of the BSS tick list which is far less detailed than the RCD.

 

Their was a rumour a couple of months ago that BW were going to ask for the RCD documentation but they backtracked on it because it was apparently one regions idea not official policy!

 

The grey builders are aware that BSS offers a back door onto the water and effectively helps them to conduct business.

 

 

What is the point of this campaigning for ever higher standards, the BSS has been in existence now for more than a decade, I had great misgivings about it in the early days but it has settled now at a sensible level. Pushing for ever higher standards and ever more involvement of various controlling bodies, busy bodies and authorities can be to the benefit of very few private owners.

 

I am sure there are a number of builders who possibly consider themselves to be a cut above the rest that may achieve some short term advantage over their contemporaries but I have an idea they will live to regret throwing their caps in with the bureaucrats. In years to come they will curse the day that they opened their doors to these organisations.

 

Garry and others are still scampering gleefully up the steps of that scaffold to meet their fate.

[Gary Peacock]

So maybe the RCD is pointless I would rather the EU didn't make our laws too.

 

But would anybody be willing buy a boat on this basis you wouldn't be breaking any laws yourself?