Poor Quality New Boats

[mikevye]

I think this is one of the most contentious forum issues posted particularly coming from a boat builder. It allows for anyone who has experienced problems to raise issue regarding any disatisfaction they may have right or wrong without the opportunity in most cases (not everyone is a member) to respond. Human nature is biased to moan or raise issue when disatisfied and to say nothing when good servce is provided. Indeed one member has written at length about his problems yet omits any positive facts and there must be some as the boat is covered by twelve months warranty. I have yet to see a posting from a boat builder defending his/her company and the reason is obvious, its unprofessional! Any issue is between him/her and their client is private, yet this topic gives licence to any individual to moan to their hearts content with impunity.

[Purple Fairie]

This is all very interesting for me, when my intention is to have a boat built in the coming months. I fear though that my purchase will be an uphill struggle. I will not be paying any money upfront to a builder, but will pay stage payments on completion of the stage and legal transfer of the boat. I would be prepared for the funds to be held on account independantly, and the boat will be examined by a surveyor and critical stages during the build.

 

It will be interesting to see how many builders will entertain my terms and conditions instead of having cash in advance to fund his cashflow. For me though, the incentive for the builder is that the work is completed without delay and to standard, and the security is that having paid in advance, my money will not be used to fund the company as in the recent 'hamper' scandle.

 

This is what we did.

We spent a few weekends going out to see various boatbuilders, many of which didn't seem interested in building to our spec and tried telling us what we wanted

We found one in Lancashire (other side of the country) but we didn't mind as he went through our spec with us, gave us ideas how things could be changed for the better, and we have ended up with the NB that we wanted.

He also didn't mind us going up there at every opportunity to check on progress, as long as we didn't stop him from working!

The contract that we had meant that at each stage (3 in total) the boat belonged to us in the event of any problems.

And the after sales service has been absolutely fantastic, any questions we have had he has always been on the end of the phone for us. eg. Smudge called him as there was water under the floor, he suggested where the problem might be but the next day he called us back to check that everything was ok! It was a split 'o' ring on the water pump, only dripping, but it had been dripping for a couple of months Simple fix, and this has been the only problem we have have (other than an electrical problem but that can't be put down to the builder! )

[Phil Speight]

Yes I agree with Bones. I don't think dodgy customers are in the same league as dodgy builders.

 

People buying boats will likely be sticking a substantial part of their savings into it. It means everything to them and it is heartbreaking and possibly financially ruinous if they end up with junk. It's not merely a business deal.

 

Builders on the other hand are in business and take the risk of the occasional lousy customer. That goes with the territory of selling anything to the public. Whilst they may lose money, it doesn't hit them personally in the same way as it does a customer who buys a substandard boat or where their builder goes bust leaving them with a part built boat at best or at worst, nothing.

 

regards

Steve

I didn`t know where to jump in here - but this is as good a place as any. Haven`t we been through all this before? We know that there are a considerable number of dodgy boat builders/fitters out there. Gary and I could probably write you list of them , with more than enough available evidence- but we can`t for a number of reasons , not least being that we are in the industry with them and we have to watch our backs and our trade connections. There has been much advice on the group already - but mainly it revolves round talking to boat owners and I still stick by something I once said - go out and LEARN about boats , then the boatbuilder won`t be able to pull the wool over your eyes.

However Gary has suggested that the customer can quite often use a complaint to avoid payment . Yes - they do , no question. They also change their minds about designs and specifications , demand changes when work has already been done and then complain about the extra cost/time involved . This can be because they don`t have a clue about what`s actually involved in doing the work , they have no actual understanding of the relationship between the complexity,the practicality and the cost of their "good ideas" and it can be because they need an excuse to demand a refund or avoid a part of the payment at the end.

If you go to a boat builder and he offers a certain specification of boat for an appealing price - have a look around. How much rent do you think he`s paying , how much of a mortgage? How many staff does he have to pay , how much does steel cost, and power, and welding rods , and insurance and everything else ? How much pride do you see in the premises in general? Then do the sums. How many weeks to build a boat at a profit to your spec. with the staff and the facilities he`s got? Then go somewhere else . Somewhere the same spec will cost you appreciably more money . Then weigh it all up. Please, once and for all, there are no bargain new boats to be had and not all the expensive ones are overcharging. Sometimes the promises are not compatible with the actual possibilities - try to work it out before you commit to anything. If a boat with all the fancy kit , granite here and mega appliances there and a "top class" paint job is less than the nearest competition it ain`t necessarily because the other guys are overcharging!

I`m often asked to pass judgement on a paint job that a customer feels is not up to the mark. Very often it`s on a boat from a

"good value" builder. My response is very often to suggest that you get what you pay for at best and less than you pay for at worst,

but if want high quality be prepared to pay for it - and DO pay for it. Then we`ll all be happy.

Cheers

Phil

[Barry]

Ok back to the chase what we are really talking about is cases like THIS from a while ago on Narrow Boat World, it was a while a go now but it seems this kind of thing still goes on.

 

So why don't we start at the beginning and talk about how to find a hopefully reputable builder. (I suppose we could call it best practise for buying a boat.)

 

Adverts?

Shows?

Magazine features?

Recommendations?

Visits?

Quotations?

Contracts?

RCD compliance?

BMF/CBA membership?

 

Etc, etc.

 

I am sure most of you who had new boats built have been through this procedure.

 

 

I looked back in my Canal Boatbuilders Association Handbook because I remembered reading about a standard new-build contract which seems like a good idea

 

It says that they are available to British Marine Federation Members only

 

I see that you are listed as a member of the CBA Gary

 

As a matter of curiosity how many customers come to you and ask for a standard new-build contract?

 

More importantly - how many customers don't ask for a contract?

[Guest]

I think this is one of the most contentious forum issues posted particularly coming from a boat builder. It allows for anyone who has experienced problems to raise issue regarding any disatisfaction they may have right or wrong without the opportunity in most cases (not everyone is a member) to respond. Human nature is biased to moan or raise issue when disatisfied and to say nothing when good servce is provided. Indeed one member has written at length about his problems yet omits any positive facts and there must be some as the boat is covered by twelve months warranty. I have yet to see a posting from a boat builder defending his/her company and the reason is obvious, its unprofessional! Any issue is between him/her and their client is private, yet this topic gives licence to any individual to moan to their hearts content with impunity.

Whilst I understand some of your points, where/how else can people who have been ripped off genuinely, (and we have seen a fair few on this forum) raise awareness? You are correct that there is something about our culture whereby we complain, and don't praise. In fact there is a famous quote something along the lines that if you do a good job five people get to know, if you do a bad job 10 people get to know - something along those lines anyway. Personally i have recommended our boat builder numerous times, on and off this forum. I sent the guy a video of the finished fit out which I understand he uses to promote sailaways. He paid us a social call to view the finished boat some time later. My experiences have been excellent, but my heart goes out to those who are suffering at the hands of rogue builders.

[Gary Peacock]

There are very few boat builders I would trust these days, but something I would look out for is follow up care. I definately wouldn't put all my savings into having a boat built, it seems too risky. Rather I would look for a second hand boat and perhaps pay the money for an internal refit if necessary.

 

How many non-payers and/or late payers does it take to put a boat builder in trouble?

 

Well it depends how many boats you are building at one time we currently have a boat where the customer can't afford to complete the build and are now in breach of contract if we were only building that boat it would be very grim news.

 

I just had a phone call from Pirate's builder too (I thought this might happen) and quite correctly he does not wish to enter into a public debate on this. However he does see that issues need to be resolved and it seems that this process as been entered into.

 

I don't know how this is going to be resolved exactly but maybe there could have been a simpler less traumatic course available.

 

If the boat was purchased from a BMF member on a BMF Standard Contract then there is a very good dispute resolution solution built in to it using and independent Arbitrator. (Normally from a marine background.)

This would almost always be preferable to the legal approach which will always incur expenses for both parties even if resolved in the very early stages.

 

It did sound very much from the builder that he his hoping to resolve this satisfactorily for all concerned.

[Pirate]

No I was just been general, I think Pirate seems to have demonstrated his problems are valid.

 

But climbing back over the fence the ball is now back in the hands of the builder, if they don't want it to all end in tears then they could still resolve the problems, save face and their future reputation.

 

God I wish my builder thought like this.

 

If he thinks that after spending nearly £100 000, the only thing I am doing while I am sat here week in and week out with my boat rotting around me, is twiddleing my thumbs and making one or two web pages, he would be very very mistaken. I have excellent ideas (apart from my lawyers route), I only wish I was brave enough to tell you about, (they are legal by the way) ready to spring to life, and the longer he makes me wait the harder he`s going to feel it. I totally agree this could have been sorted out within a day or two.

 

I am a reasonably nice and fair man, unfortunately this is seen by some folk as a form of weakness.

 

These problems actually started while I was still in the moorings, and as another contributor to this forum, has said, who also purchased a boat from there, and whom I have spoken to on many occasions he had No knowledge of my problems, (it was simply not any of his business) so I do think I have been very fair up to now keeping it all very quiet.

 

I will say again it was not me who bought this to the attention of this forum

[charles123]

I didn`t know where to jump in here - but this is as good a place as any. Haven`t we been through all this before? We know that there are a considerable number of dodgy boat builders/fitters out there. Gary and I could probably write you list of them , with more than enough available evidence- but we can`t for a number of reasons , not least being that we are in the industry with them and we have to watch our backs and our trade connections. There has been much advice on the group already - but mainly it revolves round talking to boat owners and I still stick by something I once said - go out and LEARN about boats , then the boatbuilder won`t be able to pull the wool over your eyes.

However Gary has suggested that the customer can quite often use a complaint to avoid payment . Yes - they do , no question. They also change their minds about designs and specifications , demand changes when work has already been done and then complain about the extra cost/time involved . This can be because they don`t have a clue about what`s actually involved in doing the work , they have no actual understanding of the relationship between the complexity,the practicality and the cost of their "good ideas" and it can be because they need an excuse to demand a refund or avoid a part of the payment at the end.

If you go to a boat builder and he offers a certain specification of boat for an appealing price - have a look around. How much rent do you think he`s paying , how much of a mortgage? How many staff does he have to pay , how much does steel cost, and power, and welding rods , and insurance and everything else ? How much pride do you see in the premises in general? Then do the sums. How many weeks to build a boat at a profit to your spec. with the staff and the facilities he`s got? Then go somewhere else . Somewhere the same spec will cost you appreciably more money . Then weigh it all up. Please, once and for all, there are no bargain new boats to be had and not all the expensive ones are overcharging. Sometimes the promises are not compatible with the actual possibilities - try to work it out before you commit to anything. If a boat with all the fancy kit , granite here and mega appliances there and a "top class" paint job is less than the nearest competition it ain`t necessarily because the other guys are overcharging!

I`m often asked to pass judgement on a paint job that a customer feels is not up to the mark. Very often it`s on a boat from a

"good value" builder. My response is very often to suggest that you get what you pay for at best and less than you pay for at worst,

but if want high quality be prepared to pay for it - and DO pay for it. Then we`ll all be happy.

Cheers

Phil

 

 

I agree with everything Phil says, and it is a recuring topic. Not everyone understands how a boat is priced, why would they but those of us that do will have made the assessment on the viability of a builders business by observing the points that Phil mentioned. Like Phil I could go into any boat builders and by understanding whether they own or rent, size of premesis, number of staff they employ, number of boats they turnover, price of boat and a few other variables including their borrowings (I doubt they would tell you the answer to the latter however). From that I would know their turnover from annual sales and would have an estimate of their costs. From that tell you whether that business is breaking even, making a small profit or making a loss. Once that assessment is made it would give me a risk factor to be considered in placing my business with them. If its marginal they will be using your deposit to fund the last boat and will be cutting costs wherever they can such as the paintwork on Pirates boat

 

Charles

[Ernie]

Firstly, Pirate, you have my sympathy and I hope all turns out well for you in the end. It sounds like you have been through hell and back.

 

It looks as if your boat has not been insulated properly and the paint has not been applied correctly. On the plus side, the quality of the woodwork looks very good.

 

Secondly, there is no way I would ever have the nerve to buy a new build, basically because problems such as poor insulation will not be apparent until the boat is lived in during cold weather. The closest I would go to new is a spray foamed sail away that I could get surveyed by a competent engineer before parting with cash.

 

I think I will always go for something a few years old that has been sorted and that has been surveyed by a competent marine engineer.

[Gary Peacock]

I looked back in my Canal Boatbuilders Association Handbook because I remembered reading about a standard new-build contract which seems like a good idea

 

It says that they are available to British Marine Federation Members only

 

I see that you are listed as a member of the CBA Gary

 

As a matter of curiosity how many customers come to you and ask for a standard new-build contract?

 

More importantly - how many customers don't ask for a contract?

 

We actively promote the use of the BMF contract on our site HERE we do use a slightly modified version but this is actually to offer more security to the customer. (Hopefully you lot will agree! )

So a lot of customers are aware of this when they visit us plus they all get a copy of the CBA guide to purchasing a boat when they arrive or by post prior containing this information.

 

Some potential customers do tell stories of some rather startling contracts and payment plans they have been offered by some other builders though!

 

The BMF contract only really offers it's full value when dealing with a BMF member because if in dispute both parties will have the support of the BMF to achieve a resolution.

 

Others do use the contract that are not members and much of it still holds good. But do ask if they are members if shown the contract, Heron customers only found out when things went wrong that they weren't members!

 

We have to offer a contract because of the BMF and CBA codes of practise we are bound by don't allow us to enter into a build without one. But non members can do this perfectly legally.

[Guest]

Firstly, Pirate, you have my sympathy and I hope all turns out well for you in the end. It sounds like you have been through hell and back.

 

It looks as if your boat has not been insulated properly and the paint has not been applied correctly. On the plus side, the quality of the woodwork looks very good.

 

Secondly, there is no way I would ever have the nerve to buy a new build, basically because problems such as poor insulation will not be apparent until the boat is lived in during cold weather. The closest I would go to new is a spray foamed sail away that I could get surveyed by a competent engineer before parting with cash.

I think I will always go for something a few years old that has been sorted and that has been surveyed by a competent marine engineer.

That was my philosophy, that and I couldn't afford a fully fitted new boat! We also bought through a broker, which meant that we could purchase a sailaway for just £1000 deposit, and the balance was paid upon the boat successfully floating and to our general satisfaction. Also all of the sheet material was purchased from the builder at a very resonable price, and loaded into the boat ready to start work. This was very useful since I once suffered a broken back, so lifting has to be minimal. We had to compromise on one or two things, but would I do this again? You can bet your life on it.

[Supermalc]

OK ...... this is just a suggestion nothing more.

 

I've been chatting to Pirate, who is now an online friend while his boat was being built. He has on occasion been worried, and I've tried to reassure him, however it now seems his fears were justified to some extent.

 

Gary, we know from your postings your a straight, honest type of guy, and I also fully realize this has nothing whatever to do with you, other than you are a fellow human being.

 

But being as you are talking to both men, can't you get them to come to your place and sit around the table with a cuppa or beer, and sort something out.....it seems both want to.

 

With your experience you can of course advise both, simply as a friend of course.

 

I'm also sure Pirate would welcome your help with open arms, and most like pay you for your trouble if you can resolve the situation.

 

I'll say this again AS STRONGLY AS POSSIBLE. This is simply a suggestion from an 'innocent bystander', which can be ignored by any or all if they want.

 

But all disputes usually are soved by discussion........even wars.

[Barry]

We actively promote the use of the BMF contract on our site HERE we do use a slightly modified version but this is actually to offer more security to the customer. (Hopefully you lot will agree! )

So a lot of customers are aware of this when they visit us plus they all get a copy of the CBA guide to purchasing a boat when they arrive or by post prior containing this information.

 

Some potential customers do tell stories of some rather startling contracts and payment plans they have been offered by some other builders though!

 

The BMF contract only really offers it's full value when dealing with a BMF member because if in dispute both parties will have the support of the BMF to achieve a resolution.

 

Others do use the contract that are not members and much of it still holds good. But do ask if they are members if shown the contract, Heron customers only found out when things went wrong that they weren't members!

 

We have to offer a contract because of the BMF and CBA codes of practise we are bound by don't allow us to enter into a build without one. But non members can do this perfectly legally.

 

So a good way to avoid problems is to make use of a contract especially if it is actively promoted by the builder

 

It seems that a builder who offers a standard contract without being asked is a good way to go

 

Are BMF/CBA members duty bound to offer a standard contract or is it a matter of the builder's choice or only if asked?

[Pirate]

We actively promote the use of the BMF contract on our site HERE we do use a slightly modified version but this is actually to offer more security to the customer. (Hopefully you lot will agree! )

So a lot of customers are aware of this when they visit us plus they all get a copy of the CBA guide to purchasing a boat when they arrive or by post prior containing this information.

 

Some potential customers do tell stories of some rather startling contracts and payment plans they have been offered by some other builders though!

 

The BMF contract only really offers it's full value when dealing with a BMF member because if in dispute both parties will have the support of the BMF to achieve a resolution.

 

Others do use the contract that are not members and much of it still holds good. But do ask if they are members if shown the contract, Heron customers only found out when things went wrong that they weren't members!

 

We have to offer a contract because of the BMF and CBA codes of practise we are bound by don't allow us to enter into a build without one. But non members can do this perfectly legally.

 

I`m not sure these contracts are helpfull in all circumstances and the beall and endall.

 

I for one know, from experience, that even with the guarantee, the builder can wangle his way out of it by saying for instance, "Oh your fires bad" thats down to Bubble or "your washers bad thats down to candy" ect ect so, although you can get things sorted it isnt always as simple as telling your builder as he can wash his hands of it, I would like to think that most builders dont operate like this, but I for one know that some do.

 

Edited to add...I have a contract.............whats it doing for me? except giving me legal right..so long as I can afford it

Edited March 1, 2007 by Pirate

[anhar]

My new boat is in the middle of its build and the contract is standard BMF. I wouldn't use a builder who wasn't BMF/CBA. The contract isn't perfect but it is probably as good as it gets. I agreed a mod with the builder to strike out the inflation clause whereby they could increase the price after commencement of the build due to inflation.

 

One diffficulty with the contract is reservation of title on bought in shells etc. If the builder goes bust and hasn't paid for a third party supplied shell where their supplier has reservation of title, the boat buyer cannot obtain possession of the part built boat despite having made stage payments and despite the contract transferring title to the customer, because the builder never themselves had possession.

 

That is more to do with going broke though. On the question of seriously substandard boats, that cannot be prevented by any contract. Ultimately the buyer relies here on having a decent firm building the boat, who do things properly and who rectify any faults. The Westwood story is very frightening for new boat buyers. I find it incomprehensible that any reader or boater such as mikevye can express a lack of sympathy with the plight of Pirate and others in a similar position by suggesting their reports are falsified, exaggerated or their own fault. What a disgusting line to take.

 

Steve

Edited March 1, 2007 by anhar

[Guest]

This is what we did.

We spent a few weekends going out to see various boatbuilders, many of which didn't seem interested in building to our spec and tried telling us what we wanted

We found one in Lancashire (other side of the country) but we didn't mind as he went through our spec with us, gave us ideas how things could be changed for the better, and we have ended up with the NB that we wanted.He also didn't mind us going up there at every opportunity to check on progress, as long as we didn't stop him from working!

The contract that we had meant that at each stage (3 in total) the boat belonged to us in the event of any problems.

And the after sales service has been absolutely fantastic, any questions we have had he has always been on the end of the phone for us. eg. Smudge called him as there was water under the floor, he suggested where the problem might be but the next day he called us back to check that everything was ok! It was a split 'o' ring on the water pump, only dripping, but it had been dripping for a couple of months Simple fix, and this has been the only problem we have have (other than an electrical problem but that can't be put down to the builder! )

Everyone is nice in Lancashire

May I ask who the builder was?

[Purple Fairie]

It was Classic Narrowboats.

 

I really don't have enough praise for them, they were, and still are, a fantastic company. Small, but only too willing to help. We still keep in touch to let him know how we're doing and he's still friendly and helpful after 18 months (ie, 6 months after his warantee has expired!)

 

Typical Lancashire bloke tho, a spades a spade and all that!

[Gary Peacock]

So a good way to avoid problems is to make use of a contract especially if it is actively promoted by the builder

 

It seems that a builder who offers a standard contract without being asked is a good way to go

 

Are BMF/CBA members duty bound to offer a standard contract or is it a matter of the builder's choice or only if asked?

 

We have to use it under the CBA/BMF terms but there is no legal requirerment.

 

We have a charity boat here thats governing body paid money to have the BMF contract looked at by a lawer, he made some minor alterations and they paid him his bill the bits he changed actually were mainly unimportant but I suppose we could have objected but in all honesty there was no point.

 

I think it is a fairly fare contract there is a copy HERE of the slight variation we use if you want to look.

 

At the end of the day we insist on the BMF contract being used for at least the basis of it, if the content can be accepted by both parties and the costs of the contract alterations are met it's quite acceptable. (And the lawyers make a few quid too!)

[Guest]

It was Classic Narrowboats.

 

I really don't have enough praise for them, they were, and still are, a fantastic company. Small, but only too willing to help. We still keep in touch to let him know how we're doing and he's still friendly and helpful after 18 months (ie, 6 months after his warantee has expired!)

 

Typical Lancashire bloke tho, a spades a spade and all that!

Thanks. Thought it might be Classic! We visited him twice and found him to be a decent, helpful guy. Other customers of Classic that I have spoken to say much the same as yourself. We went elsewhere, but only because they had a shell in stock. We too would have gone with Classic NB's.

[Pirate]

My new boat is in the middle of its build and the contract is standard BMF. I wouldn't use a builder who wasn't BMF/CBA. The contract isn't perfect but it is probably as good as it gets. I agreed a mod with the builder to strike out the inflation clause whereby they could increase the price after commencement of the build due to inflation.

 

One diffficulty with the contract is reservation of title on bought in shells etc. If the builder goes bust and hasn't paid for a third party supplied shell where their supplier has reservation of title, the boat buyer cannot obtain possession of the part built boat despite having made stage payments and despite the contract transferring title to the customer, because the builder never themselves had possession.

 

That is more to do with going broke though. On the question of seriously substandard boats, that cannot be prevented by any contract. Ultimately the buyer relies here on having a decent firm building the boat, who do things properly and who rectify any faults. The Westwood story is very frightening for new boat buyers. I find it incomprehensible that any reader or boater such as mikevye can express a lack of sympathy with the plight of Pirate and others in a similar position by suggesting their reports are falsified, exaggerated or their own fault. What a disgusting line to take.

Steve

 

Thanks Steve, and very much. Those were my thoughts too, although I didn`t say so before. Perhaps he should wait a little longer before passing judgement, as he has only been on the water with his boat a few weeks, and he has a shell off the builder.

 

My boat was fine for a few weeks. I think I would have had a job to pursued the surveyors of the Three surveys that have been made, to make it all up for me.

Edited March 1, 2007 by Pirate

[Billw]

I find it incomprehensible that any reader or boater such as mikevye can express a lack of sympathy with the plight of Pirate and others in a similar position by suggesting their reports are falsified, exaggerated or their own fault. What a disgusting line to take.

 

Steve

 

 

Maybe mikevye had a different experience with his boat, which is shown at the builders website as having been recently completed there.

[Phil Speight]

I`m not sure these contracts are helpfull in all circumstances and the beall and endall.

 

I for one know, from experience, that even with the guarantee, the builder can wangle his way out of it by saying for instance, "Oh your fires bad" thats down to Bubble or "your washers bad thats down to candy" ect ect so, although you can get things sorted it isnt always as simple as telling your builder as he can wash his hands of it, I would like to think that most builders dont operate like this, but I for one know that some do.

 

Edited to add...I have a contract.............whats it doing for me? except giving me legal right..so long as I can afford it

Pirate - I have a question. Believe me first when I say how much I sympathise with your position. Your photographs appear conclusive but I know your builder , he`s a customer of ours , and consequently can say no more on the subject without , to be fair, first discussing the whole issue with him and causing embarrassement - mainly to me! I really do feel for you though.

So : my question. Why did you agree to accept a shell from an unspecified fabricator? As it is you were fortunate - you`ve not got a bad shell there. But it`s so very fundamental - that`s the boat you`re buying. When you go to a builder surely it`s the steelwork that you look at first. Get a good boat and it`s fit-out can be ripped out and done again later when budgets or circumstances or whatever make it sensible. A bad boat is a bad boat for life - and the steelwork IS the boat.

I`m not saying that it`s the case here at all - I wouldn`t know and I have no wish to cause offense - but are we all getting so involved with complex and ever more technical specifications and forgetting that it`s a boat we`re buying and that it will need to function effectively as such above all else? A house is one thing and a boat is another and they aren`t directly interchangeable- whatever Waterworld would have us believe. That said , in case I get misinterpreted here , you don`t want water running down inside either a house or a boat , neither should you be badly treated or in any way decieved and , without a doubt , bad work is totally unacceptable.

So , another suggestion; put your money into steelwork- fit outs can be improved later.

Cheers

Phil

[Pirate]

Pirate - I have a question. Believe me first when I say how much I sympathise with your position. Your photographs appear conclusive but I know your builder , he`s a customer of ours , and consequently can say no more on the subject without , to be fair, first discussing the whole issue with him and causing embarrassement - mainly to me! I really do feel for you though.

So : my question. Why did you agree to accept a shell from an unspecified fabricator? As it is you were fortunate - you`ve not got a bad shell there. But it`s so very fundamental - that`s the boat you`re buying. When you go to a builder surely it`s the steelwork that you look at first. Get a good boat and it`s fit-out can be ripped out and done again later when budgets or circumstances or whatever make it sensible. A bad boat is a bad boat for life - and the steelwork IS the boat.

I`m not saying that it`s the case here at all - I wouldn`t know and I have no wish to cause offense - but are we all getting so involved with complex and ever more technical specifications and forgetting that it`s a boat we`re buying and that it will need to function effectively as such above all else? A house is one thing and a boat is another and they aren`t directly interchangeable- whatever Waterworld would have us believe. That said , in case I get misinterpreted here , you don`t want water running down inside either a house or a boat , neither should you be badly treated or in any way decieved and , without a doubt , bad work is totally unacceptable.

So , another suggestion; put your money into steelwork- fit outs can be improved later.

Cheers

Phil

 

Because I was naive and bloody stupid.

 

I have been very fortunate I have a Tyler shell and have met Tim and he knows of all my problems going back over the entire build, (my lawyers had to negotiate with him months before my shell arrived. He also knows that the blame was tried to be pushed onto him for these problems.

 

I have nothing but great respect for Tim and his work and have told him so to his face, he is one of the finest builders out there.

 

I would rather you didn`t discuss this with my builder

[Guest]

Because I was naive and bloody stupid.

 

I have been very fortunate I have a Tyler shell and have met Tim and he knows of all my problems going back over the entire build, (my lawyers had to negotiate with him months before my shell arrived. He also knows that the blame was tried to be pushed onto him for these problems.

 

I have nothing but great respect for Tim and his work and have told him so to his face, he is one of the finest builders out there.

 

I would rather you didn`t discuss this with my builder

Can't see why you should feel that personally. Experience only comes after an event, and hindsight is 20/20 as they say. I would not have known any different a few years ago, and neither would many people. It is something of a minefield this narrowboat buying IMHO.

[Boaty Jo]

A couple of discussion points having carefully chosen your builder:

 

1 Engage the services of a surveyor to oversee the build.

(Ideally you would oversee the build yourself but with the best will in the world amateurs, especially buyers who are totally new to boating, cannot be expected to understand what is what.)

 

2 An independant third party (mutually agreed by builder and buyer) should hold the funds for the full purchase price. (An interest bearing account would cover the costs).

 

3 This third party releases stage payments to the builder, on pre-specified dates, after the surveyor has OK'd each phase.

 

The cost to the buyer may increase slightly but there would be peace of mind here for both parties.

 

Jo