CRT dont want skilled equipped volunteers, heres the proof

[Laurence Hogg]

Canalscape-BCN was set up in 2007 to work as a volunteer organisation alongside BW. This was entirely successful and we did a lot of work using my motor narrow boat "Barnet". This included surveying the BCN and surrounding waterways for dredging and minor clearance works, This all worked very well until mid 2011. From then with the creation of CRT the worked faded away and despite us constantly badgering CRT nothing much materialised. Since then we have done a few "Boating Buddy" days out and an inspection of how to remove debris from Coseley cutting which has amounted to about 5 days out 2013 -2014. Our group consisted of around 20 capable people with a variety of skills and abilities and of course we had the use of a full length motor boat capable of loading 20 tons plus.

CRT let us have a maintenance work boat licence and have kindly provided a convenient mooring with easy access, we are covered by their insurance when out working for or with them. All great but we don't get asked to do anything.

 

In December the decision was taken to close down the group and sell off my boat, CRT was unhappy with this and I got persuaded to reverse the decision. So over Xmas and New year we docked the boat to bring it really up to standard and fit for any work they said they would find for us, but guess what? Nothing has happened, neither I now understand nor is anything likely to happen.

 

So the boat is being sold and the group disbanded : http://www.apolloduck.com/feature.phtml?id=407043

 

CRT "claim" they want a high use of volunteers, so why are we left without any opportunities when under BW we had plenty? I have volunteered with BW since 1972, then working collecting items for Stoke Bruerne museum etc now we have CRT full of hot air, smoke and mirrors with empty promises a mountain of "staff" and every job out with a paid contractor!!

 

We feel really let down by this CRT lot and in many ways would have preferred BW with all its warts to continue. How hard is it in this day and age to run a track of 2000 miles with 32000 craft? When volunteers are there who could save them £1000's they turn their backs.

Edited March 23, 2015 by Laurence Hogg

[Machpoint005]

Please can somebody provide the other side of this story, before all the usual suspects go off on a self-indulgent rant of righteous indignation?

[Paul C]

Please can somebody provide the other side of this story, before all the usual suspects go off on a self-indulgent rant of righteous indignation?

 

As above, realy.

 

I believe you (the op, Laurence) emailed Richard Parry directly about this, and he showed an interest in the situation and wanted to meet you. Has this now happened and this is the development from it?

[Machpoint005]

 

As above, realy.

 

I believe you (the op, Laurence) emailed Richard Parry directly about this, and he showed an interest in the situation and wanted to meet you. Has this now happened and this is the development from it?

 

Sorry, Paul, my post was trying to get at what might be missing from what Laurence said. It wasn't a dig, just a request for more information.

[Laurence Hogg]

To answer both Paul C and Matchpoint. There has been a lot of discussion with top end CRT, mainly Simon Salem and Dean Davies following my email to Richard Parry who both wanted to see the project find useful work. Richard Parry eventually replied to me directly and a meeting is scheduled to happen.

However it has been made abundantly clear that no proper work ie carrying, loads, etc is likely to materialise. The group and myself are not interested in Litter picking, gardening and the other jobs CRT seem to think excites people enough to want to be involved. We have a selection of people in our group who hold certification for a number of tasks, ie use of cranes, JCB operation, HGV licences and the like.

None of us are any longer interested in cruising for pleasure but all of us are interested in commercial type work and worthwhile jobs requiring some skill.

CRT are grossly overlooking the abilities of people involved with canal restoration, not naming names but some senior CRT people didn't realize that volunteers go out and rebuild locks, dig and line channels and return waterways to a useable state in their spare time!!

[Paul C]

OK no worries, thanks for the update. I think the best thing to do is to wait and hear what was said, or the outcome of your meeting with Richard Parry. Can't see the point in pre-judging before then.

[Machpoint005]

So there was something of a misunderstanding between the two parties regarding the nature of this putative work?

 

"...surveying the BCN and surrounding waterways for dredging and minor clearance works..." sounds quite a lot like gardening and litter picking to me, and presumably also to the CRT officials involved.

 

Let's hope the forthcoming meeting will clarify expectations on both sides.

[OldGoat]

Isn't it - possibly - a matter of liability / insurance (though that could have been mentioned)

 

I know that on EA waters volunteers are very strictly 'controlled' and get 'training' / evaluation from their internal teams.

[RLWP]

Isn't it - possibly - a matter of liability / insurance (though that could have been mentioned)

 

I know that on EA waters volunteers are very strictly 'controlled' and get 'training' / evaluation from their internal teams.

 

And how work is done by CRT - usually by contracting out to a variety of suppliers

 

Richard

[Laurence Hogg]

Isn't it - possibly - a matter of liability / insurance (though that could have been mentioned)

 

I know that on EA waters volunteers are very strictly 'controlled' and get 'training' / evaluation from their internal teams.

 

That is mentioned in the OP, we are under CRT insurance when working with them or authorised by them.

 

"CRT let us have a maintenance work boat licence and have kindly provided a convenient mooring with easy access, we are covered by their insurance when out working for or with them. All great but we don't get asked to do anything."

So there was something of a misunderstanding between the two parties regarding the nature of this putative work?

 

"...surveying the BCN and surrounding waterways for dredging and minor clearance works..." sounds quite a lot like gardening and litter picking to me, and presumably also to the CRT officials involved.

 

Let's hope the forthcoming meeting will clarify expectations on both sides.

 

There was no misunderstanding at any time. Surveying the BCN entailed loading down the boat to draw its maximum and then finding the bad spots so CRT who were with us could plot the dredging schedule, this was mainly Dean Davies and Ian Lane involved. If you think that's like gardening try getting 25 tons of boat of concrete dumped in the Walsall canal for a comparison (concrete now removed),

[mayalld]

 

That is mentioned in the OP, we are under CRT insurance when working with them or authorised by them.

 

"CRT let us have a maintenance work boat licence and have kindly provided a convenient mooring with easy access, we are covered by their insurance when out working for or with them. All great but we don't get asked to do anything."

 

That is possibly the problem!

 

CRT has started working with volunteers in a big way, giving them "safe" tasks that require little training, and they will doubtless have seen a hike in insurance premium as a result.

 

They will have managed the premium hike by curtailing "scary" volunteer involvement.

 

If they were to look at the cost of managing and insuring your involvement in "real" work, as against the cost of doing it themselves, or contracting it out to a commercial outfit with its own insurance, you just don't cost in.

[Machpoint005]

 

That is mentioned in the OP, we are under CRT insurance when working with them or authorised by them.

 

. If you think that's like gardening try getting 25 tons of boat of concrete dumped in the Walsall canal for a comparison (concrete now removed),

 

That is precisely my point! It doesn't matter what the work really involves, it is people's perception of it that matters. What I think (even after due consideration) is neither here nor there.

 

If they were to look at the cost of managing and insuring your involvement in "real" work, as against the cost of doing it themselves, or contracting it out to a commercial outfit with its own insurance, you just don't cost in.

 

Quite right. Ever tried to explain to an insurance clerk what your work actually involves?

[mayalld]

 

Quite right. Ever tried to explain to an insurance clerk what your work actually involves?

 

 

It's hard enough explaining it to the boss!

[Machpoint005]

 

 

It's hard enough explaining it to the boss!

 

Being my own boss does have its advantages...

[Leo No2]

I don't think it is just CRT. On the Basingstoke the work parties used to rebuild locks and wing walls; they put in the back pumping up the St John's flight. The Canal Society owned (I think still does) Bantam tugs, a Steam Dreger (Perseverance), now at Ellesmere Port, mud barges. They rebuilt the canal and once it was reopened undertook repairs as required; dredging, piling, brick work and so on. Now they are under strict control and only allowed to do specific authorised tasks none of which really call upon their skills. It is, I understand, mainly the insurance companies but also a bit of European legislation. So it is not just CRT but at the moment I can't think of a more risk averse group than the two County Councils that own the Basingstoke I have yet to come across. I volunteered with the National Trust on the River Wey and found them very easy to work with.

Edited March 23, 2015 by Leo No2

[TheBiscuits]

This may be a daft question, but have you looked at tendering as a contractor for around your costs? If you are not paying wages, and don't have to make a profit due to the volunteer nature of the group you should easily undercut any other bidder for the work you want to do.

 

Edit to add:

 

I'm thinking that if it is indeed an elf'n'safety and liability insurance issue, then your taking this out of the equation should ease your path to the fun (playing with big noisy toys) bit.

Edited March 23, 2015 by TheBiscuits

[RLWP]

This may be a daft question, but have you looked at tendering as a contractor for around your costs? If you are not paying wages, and don't have to make a profit due to the volunteer nature of the group you should easily undercut any other bidder for the work you want to do.

 

Edit to add:

 

I'm thinking that if it is indeed an elf'n'safety and liability insurance issue, then your taking this out of the equation should ease your path to the fun (playing with big noisy toys) bit.

 

Clever! I like that

 

Richard

[churchward]

 

That is possibly the problem!

 

CRT has started working with volunteers in a big way, giving them "safe" tasks that require little training, and they will doubtless have seen a hike in insurance premium as a result.

 

They will have managed the premium hike by curtailing "scary" volunteer involvement.

 

If they were to look at the cost of managing and insuring your involvement in "real" work, as against the cost of doing it themselves, or contracting it out to a commercial outfit with its own insurance, you just don't cost in.

Liability is an issue these days it is true but I really don't see it as a reason to not use volunteers to the full. I think we only need to look at the heritage railway scenario to see what is possible for volunteer staff to do. Certainly on the Llangollen railway I volunteer on as a signalman almost all operational jobs ie the running of the trains and much of the maintenance of the infrastructure is done by volunteers. Some of those volunteers are of course trained individuals from the national network but most are not. They use heavy machinery and also are responsible for the public safety as drivers, guards and signalman etc.

 

That doesn't mean to say that folk are allowed to turn up and just do the job as they see fit. The operational roles are as regulated (all be it under heritage/ light railway rules) as on the network with training exams for qualification and medical checks and then re examined every two years. None the less it is still held together by volunteer labour.

 

All this done with just the revenue they generate no government grants for heritage railways.

[mayalld]

Liability is an issue these days it is true but I really don't see it as a reason to not use volunteers to the full. I think we only need to look at the heritage railway scenario to see what is possible for volunteer staff to do. Certainly on the Llangollen railway I volunteer on as a signalman almost all operational jobs ie the running of the trains and much of the maintenance of the infrastructure is done by volunteers. Some of those volunteers are of course trained individuals from the national network but most are not. They use heavy machinery and also are responsible for the public safety as drivers, guards and signalman etc.

 

That doesn't mean to say that folk are allowed to turn up and just do the job as they see fit. The operational roles are as regulated (all be it under heritage/ light railway rules) as on the network with training exams for qualification and medical checks and then re examined every two years. None the less it is still held together by volunteer labour.

 

All this done with just the revenue they generate no government grants for heritage railways.

 

It certainly isn't impossible, BUT....

 

I suspect that unless, as an organisation, you have decided that volunteers that you take prime responsibility for are going to be doing a great deal of work, it isn't practical to have them do odd bits here and there.

[cotswoldsman]

I have not seen anywhere in Laurance's post that CRT have said insurance is a problem. If it was a problem then surely the new open CRT would have mentioned that to him after all we are nearly 6 months into this saga. Laurance has been a big supporter of the waterways and volunteer for 30 years so I would have thought if insurance was the problem they would have simply told him to allow him the chance to arrange insurance for himself

[churchward]

 

It certainly isn't impossible, BUT....

 

I suspect that unless, as an organisation, you have decided that volunteers that you take prime responsibility for are going to be doing a great deal of work, it isn't practical to have them do odd bits here and there.

All things worthwhile take some effort but "isn't impossible!" seems to imply that using volunteers is very very difficult and it isn't. It takes some organising and management effort but it isn't that hard. Many of the people who volunteer on a railway only work one or two days or so a month (some indeed do more) so folk are far from working full time or a lot of hours over a month.

 

I agree though it takes a certain resolve and particular ethos for an organisation to commit to using volunteer labour on anything but the most manual and simple activities but it doesn't take a rocket scientist to work out how to do more with them. It is of course easier to just outsource the work to a contractor as all you do is pay the invoice more or less.

 

But even if Laurence's post is only half the story it does sound disappointing that a body of people ready willing and able to do useful work is incapable of being utilised by CRT.

Edited March 23, 2015 by churchward

[Laurence Hogg]

I have not seen anywhere in Laurance's post that CRT have said insurance is a problem. If it was a problem then surely the new open CRT would have mentioned that to him after all we are nearly 6 months into this saga. Laurance has been a big supporter of the waterways and volunteer for 30 years so I would have thought if insurance was the problem they would have simply told him to allow him the chance to arrange insurance for himself

 

Absolutely right, they have never mentioned it as a problem and we hold a copy of their certificate on file, they are with XL. Also we have our own insurance too.

Churchward commented on the comparison to railway volunteers, I see this everyday in Bridgnorth on the Severn Valley, ordinary people doing remarkable work, unpaid and in their time, why cannot CRT compare themselves to the heritage railway movements?

[baz gimson]

edit

Edited March 23, 2015 by baz gimson

[Paul C]

You're meeting with Richard Parry soon, why not wait until that and report back? You're sounding as if you've already given up, have you? Is the meeting simply to answer the questions you have about why CRT have ended their relationship with you, or some kind of hope to resurrect it (I assume you'd de-list the boat for sale if this occurred)? With the best will in the world, others posting on the thread can only guess at reasons and give background info to other similar cases, not your specific one.

[kris88]

Please can somebody provide the other side of this story, before all the usual suspects go off on a self-indulgent rant of righteous indignation?

I think the usual suspects have already posted making excuses for CRT. Whatever the reason for not using this group. Theres no excuse for discouraging keen people, as much as Laurence is obviously discouraged.

Regards kris