Canal and River Trust changes in Licence Terms and conditions

[Naughty Cal]

Im dyslexic so I have to read it a few times to get the full meaning. So I hope you are right, I would take the plain English with a pinch of salt ( just my opion). They do seem determined to try and suck all the pleasure out of boating.

Regards kris

How do you come to that conclusion Kris?

[b0atman]

To board a boat and nail a notice to the mast

This does not mean to me to enter a boat .

[jenlyn]

To board a boat and nail a notice to the mast

This does not mean to me to enter a boat .

Means criminal damage, providing of course your narrowboat had a mast.

[kris88]

How do you come to that conclusion Kris?

Which one?

[Guest]

Which one?

It's obvious isn't it?

 

Your last sentence.

[kris88]

It could be about taking the plain English with a pinch of salt I wouldn't have asked if it was "obvious" to me

Regards kris

[John Williamson 1955]

Means criminal damage, providing of course your narrowboat had a mast.

Nowadays, they'd probably just use cable ties, especially if they were doing it to what would pass for a mast on mine if it were attached. It's steel. Good luck nailing stuff to it.

[5thHorseman]

Nowadays, they'd probably just use cable ties, especially if they were doing it to what would pass for a mast on mine if it were attached. It's steel. Good luck nailing stuff to it.

Don't tempt fate. Cordless drills and pop rivets are available at all good hardware stores

Edited January 30, 2015 by 5thHorseman

[Arthur Marshall]

C&RT are most insistent that 'cruising' equates with being used 'bona fide for navigation' . . . . so Clause 3.1 in it's amended form appears to be demanding that boats with a home mooring must now be used 'b f f n' when not at their mooring . . . "3.1 You must cruise on the Waterways whilst you are away from the Home Mooring"

That'll stop us cruising on the towpath, anyway.

If, as a leisure boater, I'm out for three days, my definition of bona fide navigation might be a bit more limited than a CCer, unless CaRT are going to dig a stack more canals to let me take a three day circular route out and home without ever covering the same bit of canal bottom.

[jonno22]

this will seriously annoy trail boat owners, looks like they are now stopping you from keeping your boat out of the water when not being used. that's several thousand customers they've just turned their back on. Astonishing.

[Naughty Cal]

Which one?

The one about CRT being determined to suck pleasure out of boating.

[David Mack]

this will seriously annoy trail boat owners, looks like they are now stopping you from keeping your boat out of the water when not being used. that's several thousand customers they've just turned their back on. Astonishing.

How does this affect trailboaters? You just declare your driveway or wherever as your home 'mooring', just as at present.

[Guest]

How does this affect trailboaters? You just declare your driveway or wherever as your home 'mooring', just as at present.

Exactly. There is an unhealthy degree of scaremongering going on in this thread by some participants.

[frangar]

Exactly. There is an unhealthy degree of scaremongering going on in this thread by some participants.

Blimey I'm agreement with far too many people this morning......I thought I was missing something in the CRT announcement and that the world was about to end but perhaps it really isn't as long as you move your boat about the system ...and weve kept a log for the last 20 odd years so that's fine if anyone wants to check.

 

I suspect that as usual the only people this will effect are ones who are breaking rules already or at least using their own interpretation of them. It's a shame that as usual the actions of the few have caused CRT to even think that rule changes are needed. It may well be a sledgehammer to crack a nut but this always seems to be the case with larger organisations.

 

 

Cheers

 

Gareth

[kris88]

The one about CRT being determined to suck pleasure out of boating.

It's my opinion, I think CRT already have adequate legislation to police the waterways. The proliferation of 48hr moorings , overstay charges and the potential use of private contractors to enforce these(which these changes clear the way for) will take the pleasure out of boating.crt seem determined

to dictate how everybody boats,

Regards kris

[Guest]

It's my opinion, I think CRT already have adequate legislation to police the waterways. The proliferation of 48hr moorings , overstay charges and the potential use of private contractors to enforce these(which these changes clear the way for) will take the pleasure out of boating.crt seem determined

to dictate how everybody boats,

Regards kris

Well that is one way to look at it. However in the case of the t&c changes one could argue its just clearing up some long standing ambiguities that perhaps some have been exploiting eg being more explicit about not being able to use a private boat licence on a boat that is used for rental, hire or reward.

[kris88]

Well that is one way to look at it.

Yes it's how I see it

Regards kris

[bassplayer]

There is a big difference between what actually happens on the cut and changing T&C's. The fact is that for many boaters their boat is their only home. I hope CRT and those behind this obsession to turn the waterways into a playground for the rich, realise the implications of what they are doing and the bad PR which will go with it.

 

The system has worked for years yet we seem to live in a culture now where we fix things which aren't broken just to justify the roles of a few people who are either bored or in a job which isn't really required.

[Alan de Enfield]

From the C&RT meeting with the 'organisations' 19th Jan.

 

Present:

Mike Rodd, Mark Tizard – NABO

Les Etheridge, Gren Messham - IWA,

Paul Le Blique - AWCC

Steve Jay – ACC

Richard Parry, Denise Yelland, Debbie Lumb, - C&RT

Plus Vicky Taylor CRT (item 5 only)

Apologies:

Jim Owen, Alan Wildman RBOA

 

 

3. Changes to License T&C’s

RP explained C&RT were proposing to make changes to the boat license terms and conditions this spring in order to address a number of areas in the drafting where clarification would be beneficial, helping the Trust become clearer and to communicate requirements better, with clearer definitions of what we expect of licence holders. However they will not (and is not intended to) help solve issues such as ‘ghost home moorings’. Denise Yelland (DY) explained that the timing of the changes is to address a backlog of changes (as the T&C’s have not been reviewed for some time), influenced by areas where customers have asked for clarity. It is proposed that the new T&C’s will go on the Trust’s website – with a table to clearly explain the changes proposed - with a dedicated email address given for customers’ comments and questions.

Points clarified were:

• whilst understanding the concerns raised, permitting limited access to C&RT employees to move on to (and cross) a boat when requiring access to boats moored on the outside is needed in rare cases to ensure that we can visually check the details of any craft when this can’t be seen from the towpath.

• if craft are moored against 3rd party land C&RT gain access usually via the water or we gain permission from the landowner (though this is not always straightforward).

• RP stated that C&RT were comfortable that the Judge’s comments made in the Mayers case had no bearing on the T&C’s or the Trust’s Guidance.

• At point 3.1, DY explained, in response to concerns, that the word ‘cruise’ already applies within the current T&C’s and that the proposal is to revise the clause to provide clarity as to what is required to ‘cruise’ – linking it to the need to move at least every 14 days.

• DY explained the Trust would try to ensure that people read the T&C’s by various methods including pop up reminders when people renew their licences on line, serving as a reminder of what their choices mean as well as a link to the full T&C’s. DY will follow up the suggestion that the welcome letter currently sent to ‘Continuous Cruisers’ (CC-ers) is sent to everyone who gets a licence to help promotion of the T&C’s given that some boaters switch during their licence period.

• DY explained that we do not depend upon marinas to notify the Trust of people move off their home mooring as we currently cannot ask Marina’s to breach their data protection responsibilities, but the T&C’s changes will allow this

• RP agreed that the revised T&C’s un-tracked ‘final’ document and the table explaining the changes would be forwarded to all to allow further review.

• MT asked that longer was needed to review the changes to the terms and conditions as there had been insufficient time between issuing of the draft and this meeting (one working day). The offer to distribute background documents was welcomed.

 

 

4. Enforcement Update

DY described a provisional revised enforcement regime for CC-ers. It was agreed that the proposals would be kept confidential until they had been discussed with the Trust’s Board and a final proposal produced, if agreed

Points clarified were:

• the current information relating to boaters without a home mooring are:

16 % of c.5,400 CC-ers were recorded cruising within a range of <5 kms, and 66% in a range of <20 kms. DY stated these were top line figures that were still being verified – they include some boats licensed later in the year - but they were likely to be a reasonable indication of the numbers with a very limited range of movement.

• RP and DY agreed that the Trust should develop a clear response to the question ‘how far should I travel to comply?’, and this is being drafted.

• winter moorings provision for 2015 / 16 will be clarified at the next meeting as it requires a wider discussion

• RP agreed to update attendees after the Trust Board had met so they can help with the effective communication of this policy.

• MT asked if CRT had the will and capability to carry out any change to the enforcement regime. RP and DY confirmed that they had subject to the Trust’s board approval.

All attendees were broadly in agreement with these proposals.

[bassplayer]

From the C&RT meeting with the 'organisations' 19th Jan.

 

Present:

Mike Rodd, Mark Tizard – NABO

Les Etheridge, Gren Messham - IWA,

Paul Le Blique - AWCC

Steve Jay – ACC

Richard Parry, Denise Yelland, Debbie Lumb, - C&RT

Plus Vicky Taylor CRT (item 5 only)

Apologies:

Jim Owen, Alan Wildman RBOA

 

 

3. Changes to License T&C’s

RP explained C&RT were proposing to make changes to the boat license terms and conditions this spring in order to address a number of areas in the drafting where clarification would be beneficial, helping the Trust become clearer and to communicate requirements better, with clearer definitions of what we expect of licence holders. However they will not (and is not intended to) help solve issues such as ‘ghost home moorings’. Denise Yelland (DY) explained that the timing of the changes is to address a backlog of changes (as the T&C’s have not been reviewed for some time), influenced by areas where customers have asked for clarity. It is proposed that the new T&C’s will go on the Trust’s website – with a table to clearly explain the changes proposed - with a dedicated email address given for customers’ comments and questions.

Points clarified were:

• whilst understanding the concerns raised, permitting limited access to C&RT employees to move on to (and cross) a boat when requiring access to boats moored on the outside is needed in rare cases to ensure that we can visually check the details of any craft when this can’t be seen from the towpath.

• if craft are moored against 3rd party land C&RT gain access usually via the water or we gain permission from the landowner (though this is not always straightforward).

• RP stated that C&RT were comfortable that the Judge’s comments made in the Mayers case had no bearing on the T&C’s or the Trust’s Guidance.

• At point 3.1, DY explained, in response to concerns, that the word ‘cruise’ already applies within the current T&C’s and that the proposal is to revise the clause to provide clarity as to what is required to ‘cruise’ – linking it to the need to move at least every 14 days.

• DY explained the Trust would try to ensure that people read the T&C’s by various methods including pop up reminders when people renew their licences on line, serving as a reminder of what their choices mean as well as a link to the full T&C’s. DY will follow up the suggestion that the welcome letter currently sent to ‘Continuous Cruisers’ (CC-ers) is sent to everyone who gets a licence to help promotion of the T&C’s given that some boaters switch during their licence period.

• DY explained that we do not depend upon marinas to notify the Trust of people move off their home mooring as we currently cannot ask Marina’s to breach their data protection responsibilities, but the T&C’s changes will allow this

• RP agreed that the revised T&C’s un-tracked ‘final’ document and the table explaining the changes would be forwarded to all to allow further review.

• MT asked that longer was needed to review the changes to the terms and conditions as there had been insufficient time between issuing of the draft and this meeting (one working day). The offer to distribute background documents was welcomed.

 

 

4. Enforcement Update

DY described a provisional revised enforcement regime for CC-ers. It was agreed that the proposals would be kept confidential until they had been discussed with the Trust’s Board and a final proposal produced, if agreed

Points clarified were:

• the current information relating to boaters without a home mooring are:

16 % of c.5,400 CC-ers were recorded cruising within a range of <5 kms, and 66% in a range of <20 kms. DY stated these were top line figures that were still being verified – they include some boats licensed later in the year - but they were likely to be a reasonable indication of the numbers with a very limited range of movement.

• RP and DY agreed that the Trust should develop a clear response to the question ‘how far should I travel to comply?’, and this is being drafted.

• winter moorings provision for 2015 / 16 will be clarified at the next meeting as it requires a wider discussion

• RP agreed to update attendees after the Trust Board had met so they can help with the effective communication of this policy.

• MT asked if CRT had the will and capability to carry out any change to the enforcement regime. RP and DY confirmed that they had subject to the Trust’s board approval.

All attendees were broadly in agreement with these proposals.

So they're steamrolling through changes...as I said, I hope the individuals concerned understand the implications of messing with those who's only home is their boat...

[Peter Cruiser]

These are notes published by NABO on their Facebook page, which have been shared in various groups across the net, good to see NABO trying to keep as many boaters as possible aware of discussions at these meetings.

[bassplayer]

These are notes published by NABO on their Facebook page, which have been shared in various groups across the net, good to see NABO trying to keep as many boaters as possible aware of discussions at these meetings.

 

Just a pity it appears CRT aren't taking much notice....

[jenlyn]

These are notes published by NABO on their Facebook page, which have been shared in various groups across the net, good to see NABO trying to keep as many boaters as possible aware of discussions at these meetings.

Yes, indeed it is. However, if a minority would stop taking the pee in the first place, by hovering in small areas and basically challenging the somewhat fluffy legislation, we would not be where we are.

Those who choose very small cruising patterns to justify their own needs will now have to look at changing that pattern, and I suspect all associations are in favour of that.

So I wouldn't get to excited about someone saving your bacon, I'm afraid that's down to you and your choice.

I sometimes think you, along with a few others misinterpret what associations are actually for.

[Paul C]

From the C&RT meeting with the 'organisations' 19th Jan.

 

Present:

Mike Rodd, Mark Tizard – NABO

Les Etheridge, Gren Messham - IWA,

Paul Le Blique - AWCC

Steve Jay – ACC

Richard Parry, Denise Yelland, Debbie Lumb, - C&RT

Plus Vicky Taylor CRT (item 5 only)

Apologies:

Jim Owen, Alan Wildman RBOA

 

 

3. Changes to License T&C’s

RP explained C&RT were proposing to make changes to the boat license terms and conditions this spring in order to address a number of areas in the drafting where clarification would be beneficial, helping the Trust become clearer and to communicate requirements better, with clearer definitions of what we expect of licence holders. However they will not (and is not intended to) help solve issues such as ‘ghost home moorings’. Denise Yelland (DY) explained that the timing of the changes is to address a backlog of changes (as the T&C’s have not been reviewed for some time), influenced by areas where customers have asked for clarity. It is proposed that the new T&C’s will go on the Trust’s website – with a table to clearly explain the changes proposed - with a dedicated email address given for customers’ comments and questions.

Points clarified were:

• whilst understanding the concerns raised, permitting limited access to C&RT employees to move on to (and cross) a boat when requiring access to boats moored on the outside is needed in rare cases to ensure that we can visually check the details of any craft when this can’t be seen from the towpath.

• if craft are moored against 3rd party land C&RT gain access usually via the water or we gain permission from the landowner (though this is not always straightforward).

• RP stated that C&RT were comfortable that the Judge’s comments made in the Mayers case had no bearing on the T&C’s or the Trust’s Guidance.

• At point 3.1, DY explained, in response to concerns, that the word ‘cruise’ already applies within the current T&C’s and that the proposal is to revise the clause to provide clarity as to what is required to ‘cruise’ – linking it to the need to move at least every 14 days.

• DY explained the Trust would try to ensure that people read the T&C’s by various methods including pop up reminders when people renew their licences on line, serving as a reminder of what their choices mean as well as a link to the full T&C’s. DY will follow up the suggestion that the welcome letter currently sent to ‘Continuous Cruisers’ (CC-ers) is sent to everyone who gets a licence to help promotion of the T&C’s given that some boaters switch during their licence period.

• DY explained that we do not depend upon marinas to notify the Trust of people move off their home mooring as we currently cannot ask Marina’s to breach their data protection responsibilities, but the T&C’s changes will allow this

• RP agreed that the revised T&C’s un-tracked ‘final’ document and the table explaining the changes would be forwarded to all to allow further review.

• MT asked that longer was needed to review the changes to the terms and conditions as there had been insufficient time between issuing of the draft and this meeting (one working day). The offer to distribute background documents was welcomed.

 

 

4. Enforcement Update

DY described a provisional revised enforcement regime for CC-ers. It was agreed that the proposals would be kept confidential until they had been discussed with the Trust’s Board and a final proposal produced, if agreed

Points clarified were:

• the current information relating to boaters without a home mooring are:

16 % of c.5,400 CC-ers were recorded cruising within a range of <5 kms, and 66% in a range of <20 kms. DY stated these were top line figures that were still being verified – they include some boats licensed later in the year - but they were likely to be a reasonable indication of the numbers with a very limited range of movement.

• RP and DY agreed that the Trust should develop a clear response to the question ‘how far should I travel to comply?’, and this is being drafted.

• winter moorings provision for 2015 / 16 will be clarified at the next meeting as it requires a wider discussion

• RP agreed to update attendees after the Trust Board had met so they can help with the effective communication of this policy.

• MT asked if CRT had the will and capability to carry out any change to the enforcement regime. RP and DY confirmed that they had subject to the Trust’s board approval.

All attendees were broadly in agreement with these proposals.

 

Was NABO's rep Mark Tizard the only one to speak (with valid points that made it into the minutes), the other reps just sitting there and occasionally nodding (and the RBOA reps sitting at home instead)?

[jenlyn]

Was NABO's rep Mark Tizard the only one to speak (with valid points that made it into the minutes), the other reps just sitting there and occasionally nodding (and the RBOA reps sitting at home instead)?

No, not at all. The trust are very selective when issuing notes. Choosing carefully what they wish people to hear, or see.

I can fully understand your comment though, given you were not in attendance, and can therefore only make assumptions.

Still, the main thing is of course, some make an effort to attend such things, and actively get involved, rather than sit at a keyboard and generally sound off.