Diesel on the cut

[Pirate]

Hi,

 

I`m setting off next week, on my mamouth cruise, I`ve been looking at maps and they dont seem very helpfull regarding diesel, I`ve also popped into a couple of boat places, and they said they`re not allowed to sell it.

 

Obviously my engine tanks full to the brim and holds near 200 litres but my heating tank is a different matter and I cant store that much, so I am a little concerned.

 

Just how available is it on the canals?

 

Cheers

[Liam]

Depends on where you're going...

 

If you post a vague picture of the route you'll be taking I'm sure that people around that area will be able to tell you about where to get it from, and how much it currently costs per litre.

 

Will you be taking a jerry can with you to keep some fuel in reserve? Would make sense to...

[Keeping Up]

It's pretty widely available, most boatyards and marinas sell it as well as do some of the working boats. Most maps are pretty good at showing it in one way or another, which ones are you looking at?

 

Allan

[DHutch]

We are talking about just normal "red diesal" as found on the canal? Not white deisal, which you wont find on the canal, but is often used in heaters.

- Dont think thats the case, but worth checking.

- How big is the heater tank, can you not syphon some into it out of the main tank!

 

 

Daniel

[Pirate]

We think we will be Montgomery, Llangollen then Shropshire union heading towards Chester, Trent and Mersey, Bridgewater, we`ll be going up the Leeds Liverpool hopefully, have a look up that area, we want to pop into Lincoln before heading down South, and yes I have a couple of jerry cans and they are heavy to carry too far, and yes it is Red.

 

I`m hopeing it dont come to syphoning?

 

We got a full set of Nicholsons and also a set of Firstmate Guides, and of course I downloaded all the Boaters guides from Waterscape . com,

 

Look out for us wont you?

Edited December 7, 2006 by Pirate

[Yoda]

We think we will be Montgomery, Llangollen then Shropshire union heading towards Chester, Trent and Mersey, Bridgewater, we`ll be going up the Leeds Liverpool hopefully, have a look up that area, we want to pop into Lincoln before heading down South, and yes I have a couple of jerry cans and they are heavy to carry too far, and yes it is Red.

 

I`m hopeing it dont come to syphoning?

 

Look out for us wont you?

 

If you carry a jerry, can most farmers will help you out.

[Keeping Up]

Nicholsons are ok at listing them; look at the entry for each boatyard etc and it lists what's available there - including diesel.

[John Orentas]

Hi Pirate.

 

You would be hard pressed to find a 20 mile stretch of canal anywhere were you could not obtain diesel, red of course. Why the twin tanks aren't you jumping the gun somewhat. Absolutely nothing has been decided yet in the white /red debate just fill both tanks with red and set off.

 

Not sure either that there is a difference between the two apart from a dye that has been added in the refinery. I know that many experts have given 'conclusive proof' but we have all heard that one before haven't we.

Edited December 7, 2006 by John Orentas

[WJM]

If you are stuck get to the nearest garage and buy a can of white - it wont do any harm, my boat has a red/white mix in the tank rifght now and it runs fine

[Supermalc]

These are the places I know of on the Trent from Nottingham, and the Witham.

 

Riverside, about half way to Newark. Farndon marina, just before Newark coming from Notts. Downstream of Torksey at West Stockwith. Fosse Dyke - hardware shop in Saxiliby, and Burton Waters marina. None in Lincoln, but only a short trip back to Burton Waters. Boston marina, and 'Geordies' at Langrick Bridge.

 

Also at 'Rainsway' marina at Thurmaston near Leicester on the Soar.

 

Rainsway and Farndon were the cheapest, unless you continue to West Stockwith. Prices were up and down this summer, as we all know.

 

At least with your boat it's not like a car, where you require frequent fillups.

 

No problem with white diesel in modern engines, but if your boat has an older engine, the low sulpher road diesel can?? damage some fuel pumps as it has less lubricating qualities. Doesn't matter to run a tankfull or two, but not all the time. I've read the difinitive answer somewhere, but can't find it now.

[Theo]

We are talking about just normal "red diesal" as found on the canal? Not white deisal, which you wont find on the canal, but is often used in heaters.

- Dont think thats the case, but worth checking.

- How big is the heater tank, can you not syphon some into it out of the main tank!

Daniel

 

Why on earth would you use white diesel in a heater? It has been taxed and is DERV. I wonder if you mean the kerosene which is sold for central heating systems. YOu can easily tell which is which. White and red diesel smell the same. Kerosene is quite different.

 

Nick

[mikevye]

Just want to wish you well on yer trip pirate, Lady Diane and I will be watching the forum with interest for updates on the journey. I would take daily miles covered against fuel used readings to get an average fuel consumption and once established it will give you a good indication as to when to fill up? In busier times it can be a pain queing at the busier marinas /boatyards not to mention the loss of valuable cruising time. Fingers crossed we may see you before you depart as Hakuna is all but ready for launching.

[Supermalc]

I think Daniel may have meant Central Heating Oil, or 28 sec. Different again to paraffin or kerosine, but as it is subsidised, cheaper than red diesel. Mix a cup of engine oil per gallon and you have diesel.

[John Orentas]

When I was at school my old science master told us that the only difference between DERV (Diesel engine road fuel) and red diesel, then almost exclusively used in agriculture was that a dye was added to one solely for the purpose of identification. That explanation seemed totally reasonable then and it still does now.

 

I know we have had a succession of very clever people on here with inside definitive information, but don't we get that every day on here, and didn't we catch out one of the heater manufacturers merely making excuses for his inadequate product (the identical units fitted in the cabs of earth moving machines). The problem always is if these 'certainties' are not challenged imediately they are assumed to be correct.

[Pirate]

Just want to wish you well on yer trip pirate, Lady Diane and I will be watching the forum with interest for updates on the journey. I would take daily miles covered against fuel used readings to get an average fuel consumption and once established it will give you a good indication as to when to fill up? In busier times it can be a pain queing at the busier marinas /boatyards not to mention the loss of valuable cruising time. Fingers crossed we may see you before you depart as Hakuna is all but ready for launching.

 

Thank you very much Mike, I was hopeing to be around to see Hakuna launched, but I`m getting itchy feet already, obviously I cant get off the Monty just yet so I may be around to witness the launch yet, I will keep you updated for sure on our travels, Tigeress will also be travelling along side us as you probably know, so should be interesting.

 

Back on Topic, I have no problem with the diesel other than my heating tank is only about 6 gallons and I have a couple of new jerry cans for spare, but it can use it up supriseingly fast, and I dont want to be cold, or walk with heavy cans, and I`m not keen on paying double at the petrol stations either.

 

I havent really looked at Nicholsons maps, I have been looking at the online Boaters guides, (lazy) and then only the ones local to myself, and under services they have everything except diesel, I must admit I would be suprised if it wasn`t abundantly available, I went to a local boat hire place and chandlers and he said they are not allowed to sell it, it made me think that if they dont sell it who does?

 

I`m probably over worrying as usual

[mikevye]

Yep you're probably are worrying unduly. I remember doing the four counties in a under a week with something like 10 hour days. No fuel top ups and no pump outs required (four crew) Black Prince boat. With just the two of you and a lower reving engine you could probably get round most of the system on a couple of tank fills! Bon voyage.

[bottle]

Hi pirate

 

I went to a local boat hire place and chandlers and he said they are not allowed to sell it,

 

is this into the jerry cans, if so it may be to do with their records that they have to keep for the customs and excise.

 

I believe that when you fill your boat that note the name and number, so as not to have problems proving they have sold it for legal use.

[Canal Shop Man]

Hi pirate

is this into the jerry cans, if so it may be to do with their records that they have to keep for the customs and excise.

 

I believe that when you fill your boat that note the name and number, so as not to have problems proving they have sold it for legal use.

Lets get this right . . .

 

If red diesel is put into a boat - no problem, no records kept.

 

If red diesel up to 100 litres is put into cans - no problem, no records kept

 

Over 100 litres, we have to record everything except inside leg measurement - not that anyone has ever checked my records!

 

Red diesel straight into a road registered non-agricultural vehicle - big trouble, including losing your right to sell red diesel (if they ever caught you at it !! - not that I would ever do it just in case).

 

Ah yes - to sell red diesel, you must register with Customs and Excise first - a boat hire place may not be registered if they only use it for their own boats

Edited December 7, 2006 by Canal Shop Man

[alan_fincher]

When I was at school my old science master told us that the only difference between DERV (Diesel engine road fuel) and red diesel, then almost exclusively used in agriculture was that a dye was added to one solely for the purpose of identification. That explanation seemed totally reasonable then and it still does now.

 

I know we have had a succession of very clever people on here with inside definitive information, but don't we get that every day on here, and didn't we catch out one of the heater manufacturers merely making excuses for his inadequate product (the identical units fitted in the cabs of earth moving machines). The problem always is if these 'certainties' are not challenged imediately they are assumed to be correct.

John,

 

I'm completely convinced this one has been fully put to bed at least once before.

 

It is absolutely true that once upon a time that white diesel (DERV) and red diesel ("agricultural diesel") differed only by the dye introduced into the latter. (I know this as I used to work for one of the oil majors on the stock control systems used at oil distribution terminals).

 

However I'm also completely convinced that this statement is no longer true, and has not been for some considerable time.

 

See the definitive answer Roger Gunkel got from Shell in this previous thread.....

 

Link to previous thread

 

The relevant bit is...

 

I put this question to Shell who stated quite unequivocally that at one time Red diesel was in fact identical to road diesel with a red marker added for tax identification purposes. Changes in Goverment requirements for more stringent standards for road diesel have meant that sulphur levels have been lowered, along with other modifications to road diesel.

 

I don't think there is any question of self appointed experts here. It's simply a case of something that used to be the case, but circumstances have forced it to no longer be so.

[alan_fincher]

Lets get this right . . .

 

If red diesel is put into a boat - no problem, no records kept.

 

So I guess where an outlet does it it is for their own purposes, not a customs requirement, then ?

 

Certainly some places keep such records - Union Canal Carriers at Braunston being one where I've been asked fot boat details, and seen them written down alongside other sales.....

[Mick and Pauline]

Hi,

 

I`m setting off next week, on my mammoth cruise, I`ve been looking at maps and they don't seem very helpful regarding diesel, I've also popped into a couple of boat places, and they said they`re not allowed to sell it.

 

Obviously my engine tanks full to the brim and holds near 200 litres but my heating tank is a different matter and I cant store that much, so I am a little concerned.

 

Just how available is it on the canals?

 

Cheers

 

Hi Pirate,

 

Your topic could be of a lot more concern in the future, next year in fact with the announcement this afternoon, that the government have lost the right to use the red diesel rebate for UK based pleasure boats.

 

So this means, I will need a small top up for my red diesel stove tank and then find somewhere for my white diesel for the engine.

 

This diesel change could mean that some boatyards will not bother converting to white diesel so fuel supplies to boats on the waterways could get difficult.

 

M&P

[Neil@CanalVoyagers]

Pirate, I don't want to seem rude, but as you've bought all the Nicholsons guides you require then why not give them a read?

 

If you check out the facilities listings for each boatyard (there's usually at lease one per double-page), they mention if the yard offers diesel.

 

If you don't read them, they'll only be any good for collecting dust.

[Pirate]

Pirate, I don't want to seem rude, but as you've bought all the Nicholsons guides you require then why not give them a read?If you check out the facilities listings for each boatyard (there's usually at lease one per double-page), they mention if the yard offers diesel.

 

If you don't read them, they'll only be any good for collecting dust.

 

Hahahahah yes thats a good idea, I guess I must be a true Narrowboat person, I dont rush to do anything.....................but I will very soon

[Neil@CanalVoyagers]

 

Always easier to read over a pint!

 

[Pirate]

Hi Pirate.

 

You would be hard pressed to find a 20 mile stretch of canal anywhere were you could not obtain diesel, red of course. Why the twin tanks aren't you jumping the gun somewhat. Absolutely nothing has been decided yet in the white /red debate just fill both tanks with red and set off.

 

Not sure either that there is a difference between the two apart from a dye that has been added in the refinery. I know that many experts have given 'conclusive proof' but we have all heard that one before haven't we.

 

 

Aparently it appears not hehehheheh