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I was going to say, a hot toddy and some paracetamol.

 

In answer, if you insulate a flue I think it would increase the temperature in the flue. You would also lose the radiant heat given out from the flue. Protect the bulkhead rather than the flue IMO.

 

Martyn

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No it is not necessary to have an insulated flue. They do draw better, precisely because the internal temperature is higher. But of course, as Nightwatch says, an uninsulated flue does contribute to the heat radiated into the living space. However, the BSS site does say

 

 


  • Use insulated chimney sections inside and outside of boat. They should be of the diameter recommended by the stove manufacturer, and never less than 100mm.
  • The chimney length should be at least 2m long from flue outlet on appliance to top of chimney. Ideally it will be all straight, but if not, never with an angle more than 30º from the vertical.

unfortunately without giving reasons.

 

There was a thread on here a couple of years ago (so I can't find it) linking to research showing that, counterintuitively, that an insulated flue made for a more efficient stove.

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A proper response from one of our BSS inspector members is called for here, I'm thinking, as I've heard (as unconfirmed as it can possibly be!) that it's now part of the RCD. Can't see it being incorporated into the BSS unless there are exemptions for older instalations, but then what do I know? No doubt some clever effer will come up with a retro fit system for flues if that is the case!

 

Added:

 

Oops! Looks like Mac's blown me out of the water. So quick too, I hadn't even posted!

Edited by Spuds
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As I posted in t'other thread :

 

My flue / chimney is almost the same surface area as the stove and gives of a lot of radiant heat that would be lost if I had a twin-wall flue.

 

The formula for the surface area of a cylnder is

Area = (2 x pie x R squared) + (2 x pie x R x length)

 

Where R = radius of flue.

and pie = 3.142

 

In my case with a 4" flue and a length of 48"

 

Area = (2 x 3.142 x 4) + ( 2 x 3.142 x 2 x 48)

 

 

Surface Area of Flue = roughly 600 square inches

 

Now if the stove is 12" cube (144 square inches per side) x 4 sides + the top the surface area of the stove is 720 square inches.

 

I'd be loathe to loose some 45% (600 / 1320) of my radiant surface area

 

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I've found the link. It does seem to be based on verifiable research, and indeed seems to show that with an insulated flue a stove burns longer and more efficiently, however unlikely it seems. (Mine isn't insulated, BTW, so I'm not grinding an axe here)

 

http://www.tigerboats.co.uk/images/forum/insulated-flues.pdf

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A proper response from one of our BSS inspector members is called for here, I'm thinking, as I've heard (as unconfirmed as it can possibly be!) that it's now part of the RCD. Can't see it being incorporated into the BSS unless there are exemptions for older instalations, but then what do I know? No doubt some clever effer will come up with a retro fit system for flues if that is the case!

 

Added:

 

Oops! Looks like Mac's blown me out of the water. So quick too, I hadn't even posted!

 

No - there's nothing at all in the RCD standards specifically about solid fuel stoves or their flues. Nor even any changes on this in the new RCD recently published. There is a general standard on fire protection, that's all!

 

I've found the link. It does seem to be based on verifiable research, and indeed seems to show that with an insulated flue a stove burns longer and more efficiently, however unlikely it seems. (Mine isn't insulated, BTW, so I'm not grinding an axe here)

 

http://www.tigerboats.co.uk/images/forum/insulated-flues.pdf

 

Yes that's the report I've got a copy of and mentioned in the other flue thread here (see post #23). I didn't know it was available for all to see and glad that it is!

 

Maybe some of us should try to experiment to see if we can get the same results! High temp flue insulation material is available from specialist places for not a great deal of cost (about £20 - £30 if I recall) and can quickly be fitted to an uninsulated flue pipe. (I don't mean the usual engine exhaust tape but a 1" thick glass fibre system with metal foil outer covering. It's split up its length and can be fitted/removed from an uninsulated flue in seconds).

 

Glyn Hughes asks for data from others at the end of his report - it should be possible to contact him via the Soliftec website which is how I got hold of him about 2 years ago.

 

Richard

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It's back to the issue of whether or not BS8511 (?) applies under the BSS.

 

I have to replace a cracked SF stove and two BSS inspectors I have spoken to are both firmly of the opinion that a) this counts as a new installation and b ) it must be done in accordance with BS8511. Other surveyors may take a different view I suppose, but I wonder if there has been some sort of directive issued on this recently in view of one or two cases of CO poisoning.

 

I can see the logic behind the insulated flue making the stove more efficient though, so I've decided to go with it even if the installation is going to end up costing more than the stove.

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It's back to the issue of whether or not BS8511 (?) applies under the BSS.

 

I have to replace a cracked SF stove and two BSS inspectors I have spoken to are both firmly of the opinion that a) this counts as a new installation and b ) it must be done in accordance with BS8511. Other surveyors may take a different view I suppose, but I wonder if there has been some sort of directive issued on this recently in view of one or two cases of CO poisoning.

 

I can see the logic behind the insulated flue making the stove more efficient though, so I've decided to go with it even if the installation is going to end up costing more than the stove.

 

Installing your stove to BS8511 is highly recommended. Incidents of fire and CO linked to the use of solid fuel stoves are still running in the top three causes in our recorded data. Installation plays roughly at a third of those incidents, maintenance and use take account of the other two thirds

 

So installing a stove to and complying with BS8511 will give you a head start then in keeping safe. But it not a requirement of the Boat Safety Scheme and if you believe that BSS examiners were adamant that it was, email me privately because we will need to give a heads-up.

 

Also Glyn's tests referred to earlier showed that the stove could be run more controllably and more efficiently giving fuel saving I am no position to discuss.

"End result – insulate the chimney and you might well halve your fuel consumption. Oh, and you should have a

stove which lights quicker, burns better, doesn't smell, smoke or make tar, will burn logs cleanly and be able to
use a full range of fuels, including the inexpensive and the clean ones. It might even have a window which
stays a lot cleaner."

 

However if some of hereabout want to leap on Richard's suggestion of testing these matters, why not get together as a virtual group and get Glyn involved right from the start to discuss methodologies and reporting and publishing, believe me, I think he would be genuinely interested to hear from you if it was well co-ordinated (i.e. not scatter-gun).

 

Rob

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Installing your stove to BS8511 is highly recommended. Incidents of fire and CO linked to the use of solid fuel stoves are still running in the top three causes in our recorded data. Installation plays roughly at a third of those incidents, maintenance and use take account of the other two thirds

 

So installing a stove to and complying with BS8511 will give you a head start then in keeping safe. But it not a requirement of the Boat Safety Scheme and if you believe that BSS examiners were adamant that it was, email me privately because we will need to give a heads-up.

 

Also Glyn's tests referred to earlier showed that the stove could be run more controllably and more efficiently giving fuel saving I am no position to discuss.

"End result – insulate the chimney and you might well halve your fuel consumption. Oh, and you should have a

stove which lights quicker, burns better, doesn't smell, smoke or make tar, will burn logs cleanly and be able to
use a full range of fuels, including the inexpensive and the clean ones. It might even have a window which
stays a lot cleaner."

 

However if some of hereabout want to leap on Richard's suggestion of testing these matters, why not get together as a virtual group and get Glyn involved right from the start to discuss methodologies and reporting and publishing, believe me, I think he would be genuinely interested to hear from you if it was well co-ordinated (i.e. not scatter-gun).

 

Rob

That's very useful Rob, but just to be crystal clear, am I right in assuming that to satisfy the BSS a solid fuel stove still has to be installed strictly in accordance with the manufacturers recommendations for installation?

 

If that is the case, at least two popular makes of stove now refer to BS8511 (not surprising really) as the instructions for installing their stoves on a boat, so it amounts to the same thing.

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That's very useful Rob, but just to be crystal clear, am I right in assuming that to satisfy the BSS a solid fuel stove still has to be installed strictly in accordance with the manufacturers recommendations for installation?

 

If that is the case, at least two popular makes of stove now refer to BS8511 (not surprising really) as the instructions for installing their stoves on a boat, so it amounts to the same thing.

 

All appliances, to be safe, should be suitable for purpose and installed in accordance with the manufacturers/suppliers instructions

 

The only installation demand on solid fuel stoves within the Boat Safety Scheme requirements is that they should be secure against accidental or unintended movement Check Item 8.4.3 Page 62 of the current 2013 ECPs. If this check does not pass, then no certificate is issued.

 

At 8.10.1 page 64, the examiner will check if all appliances requiring a flue are fitted with one. If this check is not met it will not prevent the issuance of a certificate, but it will be noted in the certification report and a BSS Warning notice will be issued so that the boat owner is clear about the danger it presents. The owner will be left to decide whether to use the appliance as is, or more sensibly remedy the situation.

 

All the other checks in the area of a solid fuel stove relate to either its condition, or the condition of flammable materials close-by where signs of heat damage will prevent a certificate from being issued (8.4.1 / 8.4.2 / 8.5.1).

 

in regards to the condition of the stove, its plates, door, glass, seals, chimney and terminal, if these do not meet the various checks, again a note will be made and a warning notice given, but they alone will not prevent BSS Certification of the boat. they are all Advice Checks.

 

All this above relates to solid fuel stoves. Where a similar looking appliance is oil-fired, there some additional requirements linked only to the fuel delivery system and appropriate shut-offs. (and the installation in a petrol-engine space 8.3.1)

 

And looking at your second paragraph; quite frankly we would hope all SFS suppliers would refer to BS8511, if anyone is not so lucky as to be a CWDF member and is not aware of the risks, the implications and the choices - they may not realise that stoves on boats have their own demanding attributes and may make an unsafe installation with out any knowledge of the risks they have to mitigate.

 

At least everyone reading this can bear the responsibility of the choices they make on their own shoulders and deal with those accordingly.

 

I hope that is a thorough as is reasonable in a community posting. The BSS Examination Checking Procedures contain the specifics of those checks in full detail.

 

edited spelling nonsense

Edited by Rob@BSSOffice
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All appliances, to be safe, should be suitable for purpose and installed in accordance with the manufacturers/suppliers instructions

 

The only installation demand on solid fuel stoves within the Boat Safety Scheme requirements is that they should be secure against accidental or unintended movement Check Item 8.4.3 Page 62 of the current 2013 ECPs. If this check does not pass, then no certificate is issued.

 

At 8.10.1 page 64, the examiner will check if all appliances requiring a flue are fitted with one. If this check is not met it will not prevent the issuance of a certificate, but it will be noted in the certification report and a BSS Warning notice will be issued so that the boat owner is clear about the danger it presents. The owner will be left to decide whether to use the appliance as is, or more sensibly remedy the situation.

 

All the other checks in the area of a solid fuel stove relate to either its condition, or the condition of flammable materials close-by where signs of heat damage will prevent a certificate from being issued (8.4.1 / 8.4.2 / 8.5.1).

 

in regards to the condition of the stove, its plates, door, glass, seals, chimney and terminal, if these do not meet the various checks, again a note will be made and a warning notice given, but they alone will not prevent BSS Certification of the boat. they are all Advice Checks.

 

All this above relates to solid fuel stoves. Where a similar looking appliance is oil-fired, there some additional requirements linked only to the fuel delivery system and appropriate shut-offs. (and the installation in a petrol-engine space 8.3.1)

 

And looking at your second paragraph; quite frankly we would hope all SFS suppliers would refer to BS8511, if anyone is not so lucky as to be a CWDF member and is not aware of the risks, the implications and the choices - they may not realise that stoves on boats have their own demanding attributes and may make an unsafe installation with out any knowledge of the risks they have to mitigate.

 

At least everyone reading this can bear the responsibility of the choices they make on their own shoulders and deal with those accordingly.

 

I hope that is a thorough as is reasonable in a community posting. The BSS Examination Checking Procedures contain the specifics of those checks in full detail.

 

edited spelling nonsense

What a clear reply, thanks Rob.

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No - there's nothing at all in the RCD standards specifically about solid fuel stoves or their flues. Nor even any changes on this in the new RCD recently published. There is a general standard on fire protection, that's all!

 

 

Cheers for clearing that up for me, can't think where I heard it from. Probably the same guy who told me that General Montgomery once needed 3 & 4pence to go to a dance!

 

laugh.png

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Late last year I exchanged my ageing narrowboat on the Mon & Brec for a younger one and had to fit a multifuel stove from scratch. Being aware of new Code of Practice for the installation of solid fuel heating in canal boats (BS8511:2010), I found there were few fully compliant systems available. I opted for the Chilli Penguin system and this was one of the best decisions I have made. One of their recommended installers, The Fire and Stove Shop (Brecon & Cardiff)) installed it last December and did a great job.

I am as delighted with the efficient performance of the stove as I was with the installation. The stove uses about 20% less fuel (I use Homefire Ovals) than my previous Arrow stove - and it is much easier to keep going. Overnight I stack it up and can leave it quietly burning for up to 8 hours - and it takes little effort to get it back up to full operation in the morning.

I recently noticed that the brass on the chimney had become a rather black and I could not polish it up. I contacted the excellent boss of Chilli, Steve, and he embarrassed me by suggesting that maybe the protective plastic covering on the brass had not been removed! Yip, and with a long and hard rub with steel wool, the muck finally came off. I also mentioned that some of the paint on the straps holding the hat onto the base of the rain hat had lost their black paint. Turns out it is all stainless steel so painting can be a problem. No problem to Steve –a day later a replacement rain hat arrived on my front door.

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