Where have all the GRP Cruisers gone???

[fuzzyduck]

what about a 19 footer, and a trailor?

 

19 feet puts you in a wider ballpark with the likes of the DC Dandy, and the Fairline 19 also the Norman 18, and 20.

 

means you'll only need to buy a licence etc for the time you use, and correct me if i'm wrong, but isn't there a guest arrangement in the BSS saving yet more dough.

[DHutch]

sheer bloody waste.

 

I know we've been banging on a bit about this, but it offends me on so many levels.

 

Eugene if you're still about, how about BWs official line on this.

Yeah thats terrable isnt it.

- I can see that from a profit-making point of veiw, the sub £1000 boats arent worth much, however, its absolutly shocking that they should be allowed to just confine them all to landfill.

 

 

Daniel

[GRPCruiserman]

what about a 19 footer, and a trailor?

 

19 feet puts you in a wider ballpark with the likes of the DC Dandy, and the Fairline 19 also the Norman 18, and 20.

 

means you'll only need to buy a licence etc for the time you use, and correct me if i'm wrong, but isn't there a guest arrangement in the BSS saving yet more dough.

 

Down to towing weight.

 

Norman 20 weighs about 900kg, or 18cwt if you like. My Yeoman 16 had the same length and beam in the cabin, just a smaller cockpit, and lower head height in the cabin, but more usable cabin storage, and only weighed about 6cwt. Both pulling from the water, and towing with the car if offered similar accomodation for about a third of the weight, making towing and recovery much easier. Also, if puts it in bottom band for BW licence plus as the mooring permit is on pure length, it's nearly half the price of a Dawcraft 25, and nearly 25 percent less than a 20 footer.

 

I could live with a Fairline 19, but the keel is quite weak on them and they shouldn't be supported on a speed boat type trailer, they need side supports, making trailers a bit dearer and harder to find. They offer good internal accomodation for their size, though.

 

I used to tow the Norman occasionally before The Ribble Link was built but it was hard work. The Yeoman I used one year on an explorer licence, launching each time I used it. I even towed it once with a 1300cc Escort. Much easier.

 

You are correct, you don't need a BSC for an explorer licence, you can just self certify that you comply with the main requirements and have a legal obligation to comply with the requirements. My Yeoman did have a BSC all the time I had it.

[Denis & Betty Anne]

After reading all the posts on this thread I thought I might as well have my say, we have a GRP cruiser, a 26ft Viking and love it to bits. Now, I know there's different ways to talk about the same point and I hope I say what I'm trying to without offending anyone or saying something in the wrong way, I'm known for saying the wrong thing in the wrong way at the wrong time, you've been warned! Our boat for us is just right, I'm disabled and I just don't have the ability to control a steel boat especially if it entailed ropes and brute strength, so in a way our choice is made for us, it's either a GRP boat or nothing. We've found that our cruisers have had all the things in them that we need, cookers, showers, loos etc etc and sometimes we've commented that you find the same bits and bobs in narrow boats but it takes so much extra length, but that's one of the mysteries of life.

 

We like having outboard motors, we have a lovely Mariner electric start engine giving us 15hp and 15 amps from the alternator, plenty of power and charge for our needs, and of course if it developed a fault we can unbolt it and take it off for repair, also we're in River Canal Rescue who will, if they can't mend your fault loan you an engine, you can't do that with an inboard! We've previously had sea-going boats and the cost of repairs to engines, servicing and maintenance, and not forgetting the worry of stern glands etc at times spoilt the pleasure, and problems always happen at inconvenient times, but that's yet another of life's mysteries, why things happen only at awkward times!

 

We find our cruiser easy to maintain, GRP as a material is relatively easy to repair, but as yet we've not needed repairs as such, it's also light, which when you're new to boats can cause massive amusement to watchers as you steer like a dogs back leg , but once you've sorted the ballast out and had some practice it's just fine and dandy. One major factor for us is that being lighter than steel we can have our boat taken easily and cheaply by road to other waterways, we intend next summer to spend the summer season on the Norfolk Broads, which unless you can tow easily would be exorbitantly expensive not only on vehicle costs but on crane costs.

 

We've never once found anyone on the cut be anything other than friendly, we've been around a bit and have always been made welcome, as we are to others, and we always feel at home and with friends on the cut. It's horses for courses, and for us GRP is just right, for others maybe not, but unless you've experienced a GRP cruiser, and a decent one, then it's always difficult to appreciate their advantages. They do have downsides, of course they do, and the warriness of narrow boats by new cruiser owners is based on the tendency for steel boats to bish, bash, bosh a bit, whereas GRP owners are careful not to tangle with a narrow boat as we know we'll come off second best, but, we've only been close to an 'incident' once when a narrow boat came to close to us while we were moored at a water point, but that's a fact of life, but nothing happened and life goes on

 

If you cruise the Lancaster Canal you'll find it 90% cruisers, and they can't all be wrong, and the Norfolk Broads are practically exclusively GRP, but as I said, horses for courses, the point I'd like to make is that if anyone wants to experience the cut and just can't afford a steel boat and think that's the end of their hopes of cruising then try a GRP cruiser, don't buy a wreck, just as you'd not be advised to buy a steel boat that's a wreck, buy well and you won't be let down. For anyone like me who's disabled then GRP is a way to cruise when I thought my sailing days were over. I agree that there are some dreadfully neglected cruisers cluttering up the waterways, but, there's also some dreadfully neglected steel boats around as well, and in my mind they should all be given a time span to either improve them or lose them if they aren't licensed or carry a current BSC, neglect is a condition of a personality not of a boat's manufacture.

 

So, there we are. my thoughts and defence of GRP cruisers, they're not everyones cup of tea, but with boating costs rising year on year then they do make sense for those who maybe can't get the money together for a steel boat, also for disabled folks like me they save the day, and as for feeling any less of a boater then that's a nonsense, we're all friends on the cut, we all belong to the family of boaters and there's room for everyone, so if you'd like to own a boat and find narrow boats beyond your finances then don't think that's that, there's GRP as an alternative and if you buy well you'll not have many, if any, regrets. They won't quite cut the mustard as liveaboards, maybe the really pricey ones would, but as holiday/weekend boats they're well worth a look at. If you're on the Leeds & Liverpool around Salterforth and you see us, our boat's called 'Nancy', introduce yourselves and have a cuppa, the kettles always on for friends.

 

Denis & Betty Anne

[Liam]

Hi Denis,

 

Makes perfect sense and I agree with the many valid points you've made.

[fuzzyduck]

Now, I know there's different ways to talk about the same point and I hope I say what I'm trying to without offending anyone or saying something in the wrong way, I'm known for saying the wrong thing in the wrong way at the wrong time, you've been warned!

 

Dammit, what a horribly reasonable thing to say! I've come over all offended.

 

I jest

 

[chris w]

Denis

 

I fully endorse what you say. We had a Viking 28 from new for 15 years and it suited our purposes perfectly (weekend use and the occasional week away). We have just sold it and are awaiting a brand-new narrowboat so that we can take extended cruises with more protection (and I don't mean more space for condoms!). Actually space-wise I agree with you too - there was far more storage space on our 28' Viking than there will be on our new 50 footer (length limited by our mooring).

 

Interestingly, various marinas told us we would only get £14,000 for the cruiser (it originally cost £23K new in 1992) and they now cost £47K new with the extras like heating etc which we had. That £14K would be less about 10% brokerage charges as well plus about £500 overland charges to get it to the nearest GRP marina brokerage. So we would have ended up with only about £12K.

 

So I put it on the free internet site "Boats & Outboards" for £17,000 and sold it within a month for the asking price! That's nearly 40% of the original price in real terms - utterly amazing after 15 years, although it was a well-loved boat with many extra gadgets and in beautiful condition. The new owners love it too which is wonderful - we have many happy memories of the kids growing up on it.

 

When we first had it there were many many GRP cruisers on this part of the system (Southern GU). Nowadays they are as rare as rocking-horse droppings around here - most days one sees none at all - they are getting quite rare. Often the only ones seen are moored up and look very neglected.

 

Like you, I never had any problem with steel boats or their owners either. I always went into a lock last and came out first when sharing a lock with a steel narrowboat; the steel owners always understood that I didn't want to be the world's most expensive fender!

 

Now that the kids have flown the nest, we want to take some long multi-month cruises to see a lot more of the system and I feel that a GRP cruiser is too vulnerable for that; Blisworth & Braunston tunnels in a plastic boat are one of the world's last adventures as you may well know. (although BW will let you go through on your own if you give them a few days notice - you don't have to be a widebeam, just tell them about your vulnerability concerns. Top marks to BW for that one).

 

As you said, GRP's may be looked down upon by many steel boaters but they are surprisingly roomy, very inexpensive to maintain and very easy to handle. We had a Honda 15HP 4-stroke which I serviced every year and which never gave a moments trouble in all that time - started every time, first time and nothing broke on it. Finding petrol was sometimes problematic but with careful planning even that was no real issue. It used to consume about 1 litre/hour and we carried about 25 hours of petrol when full. We were of course paranoid about petrol and safety and had a very strict regime on its use and handling etc.

 

However at £47K for a new Viking 28, one is in the realms of new narrowboats or certainly very good second-hand ones so it must be a struggle to sell them on the canals these days. Why do you think they have survived so strongly on the Lancaster canal?

 

Chris

Edited December 22, 2006 by chris w

[GRPCruiserman]

It's good to hear so many people backing up what I've been saying for so many years.

 

The Lancaster Canal (where I still have a mooring, but no boat!) was isolated prior to th construction of The Ribble Link, and so it was VERY expensive to get a narrow boat on to the canal. Also, GRP boats were never really taken off the canal either (I brought three on!!). The Ribble Link is quite cluttered with red tape and involves two strong tidal rivers, so is still a barrier for many, and so in some respects The Lanky is in a bit of a time warp.

 

A lot of owners of GRP cruisers on The Lancaster wont go off the canal because they see the rest of the system as mainly narrow boats and hard work with locks, as we have no locks apart from the six down to Glasson Dock which most people only use once a year, if ever, and which are very hard work compare to most locks.

 

Also in the 1960s and 1970s when much of the canal system was still being discovered for leisure use, there was a company at Galgate called Ladyline Marine who sold both speed boats for use on Windermere, but who were also Freeman agents and sold many many Freemans of various sizes which are ideal size for The Lancaster's dimentions and have been kept immaculate to this day. In fact the are often regarded as a third class of boats: Narrow Boats, GRP Cruisers, and Freemans, as if you own a Freeman you MUST spend most of the weekend polishing it with the correct products to make it look shinier than new. This does spill over to other GRP cruisers and people REALLY look after them. With the lack of locks, no scratches are attracted either. In fact I know people with Freemans who have two sets of fenders, one for mooring which are kept clean, and one for locks which are mucky!! They also wash their ropes in a pillow case in the washing machine to keep them very white.

 

These, and the fact tha The Lanky is absolutely georgeous, are why I tend to boat there. There are many many small cruisers which are immaculate and a few years ago were very cheap, but now BW have destroyed so many, the few that are left are becoming very difficult to find, hence my three months now without a boat, and the purpose of this thread.

 

Can I ask everyone whoagrees with me to send Eugene Baston at BW a letter (or e-mail) stating that theydisagree with BW's policy of destroying these smaller craft. Perhaps then they will change their policy. It would seem from the limited answers I've received from BW that it is purely for cost and administrative reasons that so many boats are being destroyed. They seem to wantshiney narrow boats only to enhance their public image.

 

If they do not get this sorted, then perhaps we could start a campaign to get things changed? I know the DEFRA thing is a bigger issue at the moment as it affets everyone, but surely this is driving up the cost of boating and the ability to downsize is becoming nearly impossible, as I am finding, so the two are connected.

 

I dont suppose BW are too bothered, they have enough shiney narrow boat owners to promote their image and moorings are in shortage so more big boats are coming all the time. These produce higher income from fewer people and cost less to administrate, which is the way BW seem to want to go.

 

We must not loose sight of the fact that British Waterways belongs to us, the public, and we should ALL be allowed access to the canals, not just the privelidged few. They may argue that we can walk or cycle, but the canal was built for boats, so why price them out of the market for everyone except the privelidged rich.

 

It's all very wrong, but I'm finding it very difficult to get anyone who can do anything to listen. Eugene Baston passed me on to his No 2 and she takes about a week to reply to my e-mails so it's very long winded, and even when she does, the explanations are just explanations of 'how it's done' and 'what has been decided'. I dont beleive for one minute that my views will go any further than these e-mails.

 

This is destruction of publically owned property, and even if a cost is incurred by BW dor every section 8 boat under £1000 that is sold, then so be it, if it intruduces more, younger people to the canals.

 

I have a wooden speed boat in my garden built from a kit. It is 10 foot long and needs some repairs. I may end up extending that to about sixteen foot and building a cabin on it, that would only cost a few hundred pounds, but a lot of hard work. I could built it to my own spec though, and insurance was always difficult to get as a proffesionally designed planned boat, so if I modify it then will be even more difficult to get!! I wont need a BSC as it will be on an explorer licence as long as I comply with the rules, but it's looking like the only way forward. It always attracted a lot of attention as a wooden boat does, even though it was only built about 1990, so I can spread the word to everyone who asks why I have a wooden boat as to what is happening to all these small craft which could get them as a towpath walker on to the water, and where their taxes are going, ie the destruction of publically owned property.

[Captain Haddock]

As I've mentioned before I sold the Dawncraft 25 over this DEFRA business, I cannot afford the current cost increase, so 30% would have killed it, and I'm now after a 15 foot or so trailboat with a trailer for a few hundred pounds, like the Yeoman I sold a couple of years ago.

 

They all seem to have disappeared!!!

 

Most boatyards seem to only deal in narrow boats or Gin Palaces these days.

 

Is this due to BW policy of destroying Section 8 boats under £1000, or is there a huge yard somewhere full of them!!!!

 

Anyone know where they are all hiding????

 

Find a lot hiding here, if you're still looking to buy.

http://www.boatsandoutboards.co.uk/php/welcome.php3

[CanalWalker]

I ve been looking at small (under 20ft) cruisers on ebay. There was a nice Callumcraft 17 that went for £640 and was then re-listed and went for £510. That had an engine and a trailer. There are boats on ebay for less than £1000 in various states.

 

If you look in a magazine or on many marina websites you wouldnt know there was anything other than narrowboats.

[Teadaemon]

As I've mentioned before I sold the Dawncraft 25 over this DEFRA business, I cannot afford the current cost increase, so 30% would have killed it, and I'm now after a 15 foot or so trailboat with a trailer for a few hundred pounds, like the Yeoman I sold a couple of years ago.

 

They all seem to have disappeared!!!

 

Most boatyards seem to only deal in narrow boats or Gin Palaces these days.

 

Is this due to BW policy of destroying Section 8 boats under £1000, or is there a huge yard somewhere full of them!!!!

 

Anyone know where they are all hiding????

 

I imagine that since you're looking for trailer boats a lot of them will be sat on the owner's drive or in his/her back garden - there's one that would probably do you (no idea of the make but it looks about the right size and shape) that's been sat outside a house around the corner from me for over 3 years without moving once. Boats like that are much more likely to be sold privately (whether via eBay, an ad in the local paper or whatever) than they are to be sold through a brokerage, as there's not a great deal of profit in it for the broker, compared to the time and effort involved. If you want one then I suspect you're going to have to scour the small ads, eBay and whever else you can think of until something comes up, or drive around looking for trailer boats that haven't moved in a while and make the owners an offer.

[mayalld]

I'm going to stick my oar in here. firstly, dinghies are the best thing ever to be invented in history, secondly one possible reason why BW won't sell on cheaper boats is that the same boat comes round on their section 8 system again and again and each time they send (how many people does it take to change a lightbulb), well the ladder supplier, the ladder holder, the ladder inspector and his supervisor, the electrician, the bulb consultant and the landlord. anyway it's £2,000 to get the boat moved so it's cut your losses and chop it up.

That's about the size of it.

 

The theory is that once a boat has minimal intrinsic value, the chances of it being abandoned are greatly increased.

 

I don't know what the answer is.

[CanalWalker]

most of the boats on ebay are on land, the ones on water are mostly on rivers. (for the type of boat iwas looking for ie 17ft cabin cruiser)

[buccaneer]

Here's a pic from about 5 weeks ago the dawncraft used to float and was in gel-coat no paint anywhere would have been a good project and better looking than a lot of dawncraft still being used some of the others needed removing the front one also looked a good boat.

 

[fuzzyduck]

with the cost of N.B cruising increasing, some of these shorter boats might be more profitable in the near future.

 

Maybe it's time to rescue some, and start some commercial rebuilds.

[carlt]

with the cost of N.B cruising increasing, some of these shorter boats might be more profitable in the near future.

 

Maybe it's time to rescue some, and start some commercial rebuilds.

I'm sure BW will think of some other way to get these scruffy plastic things off 'their' water. Probably introduce the 'plastic tax' I jokingly mentioned on another thread.

[dccruiser]

I'm sure BW will think of some other way to get these scruffy plastic things off 'their' water. Probably introduce the 'plastic tax' I jokingly mentioned on another thread.

 

I have read this thread with great interest as a "grp" man , personally i dont hold with the theory that a sub £1000 boat is going to end up belonging to a payment dodger....most are bought by people without money to burn and as such are appreciated far more than those that are a whim of the "haves".

In my personal experience i have seen a lot of these boats reborn and look better than most on the water , not because of expensive add ons or sleek new lines and tinted glass , but more because the effort, enthusiasm and commitment of the owner can be seen in a classic old cruiser in much the same way as a classic car and would' nt it be a shame for all these memories of our youth to dissapear.....

 

The other point i would like to illustrate is the way pleasure boating has changed in the last 20 - 30 years with all the financial increases in boat ownership ...

Nowdays , how many people could justify the cost of owning a narrowboat or even a reasonable size cruiser purely for odd weekends and holidays? most are either an alternative residence to a house for the lower waged, or long term cruisers which again now is becoming exorbitantly expensive ( in 1995 i had a 72' liveaboard that cost 20p per foot per week in a private marina including electric and water points and had a licence fee of around £335 per year, 12 years on it costs me over £700 to moor a 28' boat before i buy the licence) the other catogory is the downsize to a floating cottage brigade who cruise no further than the nearest water point once a week when they are not tutting at the passing boats or polishing their brasses!!! the other catogory as i once belonged myself along i am sure with many here are those that chose the lifestyle for a love of boats and canals, another great loss are all the old characters that are now sadly dissapearing that would sit on the bankside making rope fenders and painting canalware to sell to passers by.

 

I digress ... but it makes my blood boil that in another 10 years there seems all avenues into boating will be closed to all but the affluent ....

As a kid i spent long summers fishing the local canal watching the boats go by swearing to myself one day i would own one ..... seems to me had i been born 20 years later it would have been as much a pipedream in life as to aspire to owning a yacht in monte carlo!

 

Final note on a cheap, light, trailable boat ... ebay every time! i have bought several boats off there and every one has been a fraction of its true value, best of luck with your search.

[carlt]

had i been born 20 years later it would have been as much a pipedream in life as to aspire to owning a yacht in monte carlo!

The mooring and licence fees would be a lot cheaper in Monte Carlo than Braunston.

[Supermalc]

If you really want a cheap small cruiser.......here's the answer.

 

 

 

Tough 18ft hull. Just needs tin of paint (£6) inside and out. New plywood roof (£0.00 from skip or friend??) 2 air beds tenner each, plus sleeping bags, fiver each. Portable stove £10. Plus outboard........can even get old ones to do up from ebay for £20 or less.

 

£200 for boat, Plus £100 for refit and being realistic say £400 for reasonable second hand outboard.

 

Plenty about.......just no customers. Boat belongs to a friend and he wants rid.

 

 

I don't think anyone wants a cheap boat, I just think they want to buy a boat cheaply.

 

If anyone did really want a cheap boat they would have bought this one. And I fully agree, boats do sometimes get sold massively under their true value.

 

As to people with money having a boat as a twice a year weekend toy, status symbol, 5 miles from my house is a large new marina full of them http://www.burtonwaters.co.uk/

 

There are plenty of people with 500,000 plus to spare, even in Lincoln

[anthony]

I would have to echo what dccruiser has said.

Ive been doing up a dawncraft Dandy and spent a lot of time and effort on it.

Sanding then sanding then more sanding then prep work new windows paint,oh and the bloody bird sand technique for grip the list goes on.

If anyone suggested i would be dodging fees after putting in so much work they are frankly totally daft.

Ill have to put up a little blog with the before and after pictures of the project I think so folks can have a look,ill even include one of my BW receipt.

Bye.

[RobinR]

Has anyone reading this thread looked on the Ownerships website lately? The day of the under £1000 share will be with us soon and the yearly charges less than one weeks hire. This is therefore affordable for a wide range of income levels. For BWB this is a single licence fee for up to 12 owners. Surely it would be better for their revenue to have 12 seperate fees? A boat on a private scheme recently had 3 single weeks (2 in March and 1 in November) at £250 per single week owned and the same per year for running costs contributions (ie all 3 for £750). Whilst this thread addresses budget GRP boats, it also addresses low cost boating and shared ownership may well become the new low cost entry process.

[Adam]

Has anyone reading this thread looked on the Ownerships website lately? The day of the under £1000 share will be with us soon and the yearly charges less than one weeks hire. This is therefore affordable for a wide range of income levels. For BWB this is a single licence fee for up to 12 owners. Surely it would be better for their revenue to have 12 seperate fees? A boat on a private scheme recently had 3 single weeks (2 in March and 1 in November) at £250 per single week owned and the same per year for running costs contributions (ie all 3 for £750). Whilst this thread addresses budget GRP boats, it also addresses low cost boating and shared ownership may well become the new low cost entry process.

 

 

Dont mention that they'l start charging that

[GRPCruiserman]

Has anyone reading this thread looked on the Ownerships website lately? The day of the under £1000 share will be with us soon and the yearly charges less than one weeks hire. This is therefore affordable for a wide range of income levels. For BWB this is a single licence fee for up to 12 owners. Surely it would be better for their revenue to have 12 seperate fees? A boat on a private scheme recently had 3 single weeks (2 in March and 1 in November) at £250 per single week owned and the same per year for running costs contributions (ie all 3 for £750). Whilst this thread addresses budget GRP boats, it also addresses low cost boating and shared ownership may well become the new low cost entry process.

 

I understand what you are saying, but you are then treating the boat as you would a Sky box, ie a means to enjoy the canal, as a Sky box is a way to receive pay TV whereas you can buy your own satellite box and be free, and are not treating the boat as an item to enjoy owning in itself.

 

The ownership of the boat is just as important, the odd day off in the week when you can just go and 'potter' about on it, the day after the windy night when you just go to 'check' on it and sit about drinking a warm coffee, putting off going home, the beautiful weekend when you can go just overnight.

 

I used to work every Sunday and we used to go to the boat on a Friday night, and come back Sunday morning, sometimes after cruising back to the mooring at 7 am to get to work for 12.

 

The point is the boat is always ther for you to use, whenever you want with a small GRP cruiser, every weekend, every holiday, if you haven't time to 'weekend' the boat to your holiday destination, you pop it on the trailer and tow it there. (essential when your mooring is on the Lancaster Canal before they built The Ribble Link). It is there EVERY moment of every day of the year, whenever your constantly changing shifts allow you to use it.

 

Shared ownership for just three weeks a year is more like hiring, and if the ownership of a GRP cruiser equates to the same, with the advantages a GRP cruiser gives added in, I'd take it every time.

 

I know BW no longer wants small boats on it's waterways and is trying it's best to push them off (and is succeeding), one day they will be looked upon as are wooden boats today. Very rare, and in the veign of classic cars, whereas shiney multi-ten thousand pound Narrow Boats are becoming commonplace and will be the norm.

 

I really would not want a shared ownership boat, nor would I want a time share anything.

 

Only my opinion, I know, I suppose it depends whether you want a boat to use on a canal, or a trip on a canal in a boat you have a right to use a few times a year.

[Adam]

I cant see how you could have shared ownership with a GRP. How much do theese cost ?

[norman18grp]

I cant see how you could have shared ownership with a GRP. How much do theese cost ?

Here is a nice second hand one Adam Not quite your budget boat .

 

 

Simon