Where there's smoke there's..........?

[rubblequeen]

OK this maybe a dumb question but lighting my Squirrel stove always means I get some smoke in the cabin before it finally takes up and burns away. When it's alight I can have the door open OK and no smoke or is there something?

My question is what chemicals are in the smoke? Because I just wondered why my Carbon Monoxide detector doesn't go off. I have tested it and all is fine.

 

[Nickhlx]

There may be little / no Carbon Monoxide in the smoke ?

 

Nick

[Mac of Cygnet]

As the door is open, there is a plentiful supply of oxygen. CO is mainly produced when oxygen supply is restricted, ie the stove is shut down.

 

Edited to say that there are indeed other unpleasant chemicals in smoke, depending on what you're burning, but they won't kill you immediately.

Edited December 30, 2013 by Mac of Cygnet

[Ark Right]

Hi, there is either something wrong with your stove or something wrong with the way you are lighting it.

 

Noticeable smoke in the cabin is not good, save for stormy back draughts which is still not good but unavoidable.

Edited to add leaking door seals ? Poor flue?

A

Edited December 30, 2013 by Ark Right

[onionbargee]

close the door until it starts drawing

[rubblequeen]

Thanks that's put my mind at rest. Burning smokeless fuel and some well seasoned dry logs. Lighting is Ok and not getting loads of smoke just some blown in during the lighting in these winds we have been having.

[Higgs]

I don't think it's unusual - depending on baffling (no direct line to the flue) or little wind blowing across the top of the flue and a cold flue. The excess of smoke, initially, on lighting a fire is going to be pretty sluggish in rising until heat takes effect.

 

Best to get it started and shut the door and open the draught door underneath the fire. It usually creates a strong updraught.

Edited December 30, 2013 by Higgs

[Peugeot 106]

2 loose sheets of newspaper in the bottom + 5 overhand knots each made of two sheets of newspaper + dry kindling.Medium sized logs on top. Door just ajar and both vents full open should get good initial blaze which warms the chimney and helps the draw. If you don't get the initial blaze I doubt the chimney will get warm and the draw will be poor and it will smoke until it gets warm. That's how I do it with Squirel every night for 6 years all winter. Note though I have never lit a stove with a short flue on a narrowboat but suspect that warming the chimney quickly is crucial.Give it a try - you've nothing to lose!

[MtB]

close the door until it starts drawing

 

Pictures of matchstick men?

 

 

MtB

[dor]

The Squirrel on my last boat let me open the bottom door completely. This helped making lighting very easy. On my Current Stovax, the bottom door has a lump on it which stops it opening more than a small gap if the main door is closed. I haven't taken an angle grinder to it yet as it is easy to just lift it off the hinges but I will get round to it one day. Taking the bottom door off for the first five minutes or so makes it much easier to light.

 

One thing to bear in mind when lighting your fire: You lay in some Towpath Talk (some people I understand buy and use old newspapers), then put your bits of kindling on top. It is easy for the paper to more or less block the grill in the bottom of the stove before it all burns, so give it a poke after laying it to make sure there is plenty of room for air to pass up from underneath and not blocked by the paper.

[rubblequeen]

Thanks for the hints on lighting the fire - however, there is no problem with lighting it I was concerned that initially some smoke came back into the cabin (not enough to worry about) and wondered why it didn't set the CO detector off. I realised that I had no idea what smoke consisted of and should it be setting the detector off.

 

Some good hints though thanks.

[Dave_P]

Your stove sends smoke into the room when first lit because the convection current hasn't been set up yet. It's normal. Until an appreciable amount of heat is being produced, the smoke won't be drawn up the chimney but will just billow around wherever. Light the stove and shut the door straight away with plenty of bottom ventilation. As the fire uses up the oxygen inside the stove, it will naturally start to draw more oxygen from beneath to replace it and a coonvection current will be set up. At this point, you can open the door again slowly and you should see the smoke all going straight up the chimney. If it doesn't, close the door again for a few more minutes. This way you will avoid getting a lot of smoke in your boat.

 

As an aside, why do you want to leave your door open when the fire is burning? Squirrel stoves are designed to have the door left shut. Look at it this way: Once your boat is up to temperature you should be closing down the vents quite a lot to create slow, gentle burn. This restricts oxygen to the fire and can potentially cause the formation of carbon monoxide. That being the case, you should keep the door shut and sealed to prevent any chance of that entering the room. Also you are far more likely to set your boat on fire if you leave the door open.

Edited December 31, 2013 by Dave_P

[MtB]

Your stove sends smoke into the room when first lit because the convection current hasn't been set up yet. It's normal.

 

 

No it isn't 'normal', it tells us the stove has an air leak from the back and this would be a BSS fail if the examiner knew about it.

 

Once the stove warms up and the flue begins to pull, air is drawn in through the leak instead of combustion products (i.e. smoke) leaking out, but it is not a desirable situation.

 

MtB

[Dave_P]

 

 

No it isn't 'normal', it tells us the stove has an air leak from the back and this would be a BSS fail if the examiner knew about it.

 

Once the stove warms up and the flue begins to pull, air is drawn in through the leak instead of combustion products (i.e. smoke) leaking out, but it is not a desirable situation.

 

MtB

In that case every stove I've ever seen is abnormal (hundreds). Please explain how an instant convection current is created when lighting a cold stove. It isn't. That's why it's sensible not to leave the door open once the stove is lit. Boat's tend to be worse than houses in this respect because of significantly shorter flues.

 

Update: MtB, I just re-read your post and I think I understand the confusion. I wasn't suggesting the smoke should escape into the room with the door closed. That would be a BAD thing. I meant smoke will escape when the door is open.

Edited December 31, 2013 by Dave_P

[Athy]

We have the same problem when lighting our stove (an old Godin). It emits smoke into the saloon for a minute or two. Our external chimney is only about 12" tall and I have wondered if a longer one would help the stove to draw more quickly and efficiently.

 

When the stove is going, I can see a small red patch at the back where the flue pipe joins the stove. I assume that there is a small gap there. Is this likely to be an intended design feature or should I set to with fire cement and seal it?

[MtB]

We have the same problem when lighting our stove (an old Godin). It emits smoke into the saloon for a minute or two. Our external chimney is only about 12" tall and I have wondered if a longer one would help the stove to draw more quickly and efficiently.

Pretty unlikely to help, although longer is always better than shorter... (no smutty comments please). More effect will be achieved by removing the coolie hat or cleaning crap off the baffle plate if you have one (or your stove has one).

 

 

When the stove is going, I can see a small red patch at the back where the flue pipe joins the stove. I assume that there is a small gap there. Is this likely to be an intended design feature or should I set to with fire cement and seal it?

Definitely not a design feature, there should be no gap. Fire cement won't be much good, it will crack and fall off. Better to weld it up.

 

MtB

[Athy]

Thanks. Being a simple soul with regard to practical matters, I thought that fire cement was meant to withstand, er, fire?

Would a welder be able to work in the confined space of a boat's saloon?

Edited December 31, 2013 by Athy

[Dave_P]

We have the same problem when lighting our stove (an old Godin). It emits smoke into the saloon for a minute or two. Our external chimney is only about 12" tall and I have wondered if a longer one would help the stove to draw more quickly and efficiently.

 

When the stove is going, I can see a small red patch at the back where the flue pipe joins the stove. I assume that there is a small gap there. Is this likely to be an intended design feature or should I set to with fire cement and seal it?

A longer chimney would help. For maximum draw, you'd have a 20' chimney coming from your roof but that may be a bit impractical. Boating is often about compromise. However, if your stove is putting smoke into your room for a minute or two, that's a very good reason to close the door!

 

A hole where the flue joins the stove sounds dodgy to me. Can't think why that would be a design feature.

[Athy]

^{I do close the door. You do mean the stove door, not the boat's doors, don't you? The latter, of course, have to be opened to let the smoke out!}

[Dave_P]

More confusion! Are you saying that when you light the stove, smoke gets into the cabin, even when the stove door is closed?

[Athy]

No confusion, that's what I said and that's what I mean, because that's what happens!

[Dave_P]

Then you have a problem with your stove and you ought to get it looked at.

[Athy]

I bet your friends call you Sherlock! In post 15 I said that I had a problem with the stove.

 

If you have seen a Godin Radiolette you'll know that it's encased in a sort of iron lattice inna Art Nouveau stylee. So it is difficult to ascertain where the smoke is escaping from. Most likely would be the front door or the top-loading flap, I suppose.

[Pete & Helen]

Thanks for the hints on lighting the fire - however, there is no problem with lighting it I was concerned that initially some smoke came back into the cabin (not enough to worry about) and wondered why it didn't set the CO detector off. I realised that I had no idea what smoke consisted of and should it be setting the detector off.

 

Some good hints though thanks.

 

I get the same as you on first start up. Most of the smoke comes from the vents which isn't surprising so tend to close them down and leave the bottom door open the bit it can. I find that most of the smoke is generated by the coal so try only putting a few bits on to start with.

I did wonder as you did about the CO2 detector not going off but as has been said there is little CO2 in the initial burn. Its the ash you have to worry about, so don't keep hot ash on the boat after cleaning your fire, and if the fire is left to go out then ensure all the vents are closed.

[Dave_P]

I bet your friends call you Sherlock! In post 15 I said that I had a problem with the stove.

 

If you have seen a Godin Radiolette you'll know that it's encased in a sort of iron lattice inna Art Nouveau stylee. So it is difficult to ascertain where the smoke is escaping from. Most likely would be the front door or the top-loading flap, I suppose.

Never been called sherlock before. I quite like it! My last post was prompted by the fact that you have a problem with your stove but i get the impression you're still using it. I hope you have 2 or 3 CO detectors (not CO2 Pete and Helen - that's a different thing) and that you're testing them at least once a week. Even so, if my stove was leaking fumes from an unknown place, I'd stop using it untilit was fixed. Ultimately, it's up to you though.

 

and yes, I've seen your stove. They're rather lovely and I'm a bit jealous. I'm stuck with a squirrel which is ok but a bit, you know, boring.