the bramwith coffee boat.

[peterboat]

Wow it gets worse! I dont know how you have coped with the hassle Dont know if it matters as Doncaster council should close them down now surely? Fingers crossed and the cafe boat sails into the distance

 

Peter

[Boating lass]

Lots of fingers crossed here Peter.

I guess it's a let's wait & see if Doncaster council stick to their guns & use their powers or drag their feet like they have done so far.

I guess they've been backed into a corner now as the Milsoms have chosen to yet again ignore the rules everyone else is expected to abide by.

Let's see if they come out fighting

[KJT]

Lots of fingers crossed here Peter.

I guess it's a let's wait & see if Doncaster council stick to their guns & use their powers or drag their feet like they have done so far.

I guess they've been backed into a corner now as the Milsoms have chosen to yet again ignore the rules everyone else is expected to abide by.

Let's see if they come out fighting

 

..... or they will just move to some other VM's and start the whole sorry business all over again!

[Grace and Favour]

..... or they will just move to some other VM's and start the whole sorry business all over again!

But I suspect there aren't that many visitor moorings that could support either that size of boat, and be close enough to sufficient number of passing road-based customers with good access (unless they go up to Lemonroyd/Woodlesford - and I can't see them being tolerated there)

[mark99]

A petition won't cut much ice with authorities unless it address's /contends planning issues/policy. As seen on the recent TV series re replanning permissions where the planning leader more than once accepted huge piles of signitures smiling sweetly and explains to camera that piles of signitures mean nothing unless there is a good reason attached to them (specific planning law/policy point).

 

So cofee boat's petition should mean nowt - make sure your one states the planning or licence contravention - no authority is going to ignore that!

Edited March 10, 2014 by mark99

[Bettie Boo]

If it wew me, I'd be contacting the local food safety standards agency, lodge a concern regarding their hygiene practice's, if they get enough complaints they will pay the coffee boat a visit and do a surprise inspection. If they indeed aren't follow the guidelines properly, they could be served notice for improvement. If the improvements aren't met, the local EHO can shut them down. You will find FSA has a fair amount of power and are not shy in using it as it involves the health of the general public.

[Peter X]

Further to the above, and at the risk of stating the obvious, the best form of defence is a legal attack, on as many fronts as are available to you. Banners are good, but stick carefully to the truth because that's a defence against libel. If they're breaking food hygiene regulations, report that too. But most of all, gather evidence that they're still trading despite an enforcement notice and press the council and police to prosecute. An independent witness of good standing who's willing to turn up in court is always good quality evidence. The relevant law for the council/police to use, which they should already know of course, is the Town and Country Planning Act 1990 section 179, which provides for big fines:

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1990/8/section/179

Fans of the Pillings Lock topic will know I do love to help the underdog as an amateur lawyer.

[mango]

If it wew me, I'd be contacting the local food safety standards agency, lodge a concern regarding their hygiene practice's, if they get enough complaints they will pay the coffee boat a visit and do a surprise inspection. If they indeed aren't follow the guidelines properly, they could be served notice for improvement. If the improvements aren't met, the local EHO can shut them down. You will find FSA has a fair amount of power and are not shy in using it as it involves the health of the general public.

It is not a requirement to display the food hygiene rating at any premises, except in Wales. Hopefully that will change soon. I always assume that the absence of a rating means that it is 3 or below, and looking up the rating on the FSA website usually confirms this.

 

Inspections are coordinated by the Food Standards Agency but carried out by councils. Some are better than others at carrying out regular inspections. Some date back to 2009, which is not much help, particularly where businesses change hands.

 

There are plenty of small businesses that get a food hygiene rating of 5. Good luck to them.

[Bettie Boo]

It is not a requirement to display the food hygiene rating at any premises, except in Wales. Hopefully that will change soon. I always assume that the absence of a rating means that it is 3 or below, and looking up the rating on the FSA website usually confirms this.

 

Inspections are coordinated by the Food Standards Agency but carried out by councils. Some are better than others at carrying out regular inspections. Some date back to 2009, which is not much help, particularly where businesses change hands.

S

There are plenty of small businesses that get a food hygiene rating of 5. Good luck to them.

Yes you are correct, regarding the current system for ratings and it not a legal requirement to have the certificate displayed. However a few months back, our local EHO was telling me the plans the FSA have in changing the system yet again, during our last inspection. Currently small independent business are not required to maintain the same rigorous standards that national, multi national and/or large venues are required to operate under, rightful so. However they are expected to maintain some basis hygiene practices, and make themselves available for unannounced inspections.

 

What I was suggesting above really was more along the lines of notifying the FSA that the coffee boat exists, since they don't seem to have any regard for the council's directive of ceasing to operate due to not having the proper license, they more than likely have not bothered to notify the FSA of their existence either and therefore probably haven't had an inspection and could be quiet easily not following some of the more basic hygiene practices which all food operators are expected to adhere to.

 

B~

[Guest]

Looked spotlessly clean when I last visited I do have to say.

[mango]

Yes you are correct, regarding the current system for ratings and it not a legal requirement to have the certificate displayed. However a few months back, our local EHO was telling me the plans the FSA have in changing the system yet again, during our last inspection. Currently small independent business are not required to maintain the same rigorous standards that national, multi national and/or large venues are required to operate under, rightful so. However they are expected to maintain some basis hygiene practices, and make themselves available for unannounced inspections.

 

What I was suggesting above really was more along the lines of notifying the FSA that the coffee boat exists, since they don't seem to have any regard for the council's directive of ceasing to operate due to not having the proper license, they more than likely have not bothered to notify the FSA of their existence either and therefore probably haven't had an inspection and could be quiet easily not following some of the more basic hygiene practices which all food operators are expected to adhere to.

 

B~

My interest in food hygiene ratings is because I have a reasonable understanding of the causes of food poisoning. Obviously a large organisation employing a number of staff in its kitchen, handling raw meat, and storing substantial quantities of food deserves closer inspection than a small cafe. The larger organisation will have to demonstrate it has effective procedures in place, including staff training and keeping records of all stored food. A larger kitchen will have separate fridges for fresh and cooked meat, whereas it's probably acceptable to keep them well apart in a single fridge in a small premises.

 

I have never heard of anyone getting food poisoning from beer.

[IanM]

I have never heard of anyone getting food poisoning from beer.

 

It's made me feel ill on more than one occasion

[mango]

 

It's made me feel ill on more than one occasion

Sometimes suffering is necessary to ensure good turnover of the stock of good ale to maintain product quality. Boaters should be proud of their efforts.

[Bettie Boo]

My interest in food hygiene ratings is because I have a reasonable understanding of the causes of food poisoning. Obviously a large organisation employing a number of staff in its kitchen, handling raw meat, and storing substantial quantities of food deserves closer inspection than a small cafe. The larger organisation will have to demonstrate it has effective procedures in place, including staff training and keeping records of all stored food. A larger kitchen will have separate fridges for fresh and cooked meat, whereas it's probably acceptable to keep them well apart in a single fridge in a small premises.

 

I have never heard of anyone getting food poisoning from beer.

I also have a rather keen interest in the rating system, having worked in the catering trade for the past 30 some years, and having a fairly well rounded knowledge on the subject of food born illnesses. Don't consider myself an expert, by any stretch of the imagination, just knowledgeable from a reputable food service providers point of view.

 

It is actually very rare to find an industrial kitchen with enough space to have a walk-in fridge for raw products and another for cooked and/or processed; it is a much more common and accepted practice to store all refrigerated products in one walk-in fridge unit ensuring processed and/or raw meats are kept on higher level shelves than raw meat, and raw meat is always kept in some form of container to catch any juices/blood loss. Probing records are required to be kept for both fridges and any high risk items held within them, and this applies to all food service providers regardless of size AFAIA.

 

Again, for the Cafe Boat, I was thinking more along the lines of hand wash facilities, waste removal, refrigerated storage of cream cakes, milk, cleaning chemicals and the like...the real basic stuff. Does anyone on the boat even possess a BFHC? If they can't be asked to follow instructions from the council regarding their right to trade, do the FSA even know they exist?

 

Not sure about beer (not much experience with it), but I can verify that Canadian Rye Whiskey does not cause any form of food poisoning....but as with beer it does leave one with a slight head ache if more than a certain amount is consumed in one setting

[Boating lass]

It appears they have been given 2 weeks breathing space to continue trading by the council planning department, but if they haven't conformed to their planning permission by then they must cease trading until they have re applied.

But that will mean buying back their old narrow boat, getting rid of the wide beam they are currently fitting out, ripping up the paving they've laid, taking down the fence & electric post they've erected so this is doubtful.

As far as hygiene goes they let his son sleep in the butty they use as the cafe boat when he visits.

They sleep & bathe in the intended restaurant boat & are you allowed to take your waste for disposal in the back of the same van you deliver all your food & drink in?

[Bettie Boo]

It appears they have been given 2 weeks breathing space to continue trading by the council planning department, but if they haven't conformed to their planning permission by then they must cease trading until they have re applied.

But that will mean buying back their old narrow boat, getting rid of the wide beam they are currently fitting out, ripping up the paving they've laid, taking down the fence & electric post they've erected so this is doubtful.

As far as hygiene goes they let his son sleep in the butty they use as the cafe boat when he visits.

They sleep & bathe in the intended restaurant boat & are you allowed to take your waste for disposal in the back of the same van you deliver all your food & drink in?

This is Not ideal, and I can't imagine any EHO being pleased about someone sleeping in a cafe; however if they can show the kitchen area is not being used for anything other than food storage, preparation and cleaning they "may" get away with it.

 

"intended"? Is it currently a restaurant boat? if not, again this would not be a problem, and even when it is a restaurant it won't really be a problem. It's no different than the hotel boats where people eat & sleep on the same boat. It's about the proper storage of food stuffs, at the correct temperatures, a good hygiene regime being maintained IE providing washroom facilities away from the food prep area; ensuring there is hand wash facilities in the food prep area and ensuring food prepares are using said facilities & have basic food hygiene training, chillers & freezers are regularly probed to ensure they are running at the correct temps, and high risk food is probed; any cooked foods are chilled properaly or held at the correct temps for serving later. Ensuring food and chemicals are stored properly, and that cross contamination is kept to a minimum by correct hygiene practices, knife handling and chopping board maintenance, just to name a few.

 

Your local EHO will not appreciate at all the same vehicle being used to remove rubbish that is used for transporting food in from suppliers. Especially an van with an open internal space. You "may" get away with it in a car if for example the rubbish was only ever put in the trunk and the food items only in the back seat or visa versa. The EHO's cut small independent businesses a fair amount of slack; however they do have to follow the basic guidelines

[Guest]

I'm afraid I still think all here is not as it seems.

 

Thus far we only have one side of the story.

 

I have met the guy. I have bought coffee from him. His boat was spotless inside. I could see no where that any body could sleep. I would love to hear his side of the story..

[Boating lass]

Thanks to everyone for your support & suggestions but I feel the need to point out to Martin, in the dog house, that I never asked or initially suggested any problems with food hygiene or their facilities other than the ones I have recently highlighted.

I have not seen inside either boat other than on photos he has taken & posted on Facebook & have no intention of, as even if these people had the last glass of water on planet earth & only wanted a penny for it they would not get a penny from me as I do not support bullies of any nature.

My point was that there are no beds in the coffee boat bean butty as they like to call it, so where does he sleep in there, floor, seating? It is of no real concern to me I will never eat there, but others do.

Yes I agree there are always two sides to every story but unfortunately myself & the other boats nearby have had to fight tooth & nail to get our side heard & acknowledged through their lies & deceit.

Can I just point out that I & the other boaters involved spend 90% of our time on our boats at these moorings & encounter these people on a daily basis, & I & many other of the females involved have been targeted & intimidated by mr Milson on a regular basis & now he is targeting the more vulnerable, or so he thought until the police got involved yet again!

This couple have been kicked off or seen off of numerous moorings previous to Bramwith, including Rotherham, Doncaster town centre & strawberry island for their anti-social actions & I do not feel that one cup of coffee & a piece of cake for an hour on a sunny weekend afternoon makes time for a good judgment of character.

It's easy to put on a smile & a false character for a short space of time for a customer who's willing to pay an extortionate price for a coffee & a slice of cake you have just bought at sainsburys.

Propaganda whispered initially into willing ears on brief encounters has led many people throughout history to believe false accounts of what really happened for the believers to eventually have their eyes opened wide having spent time with or around the initial whisperer, who has since become the shouter, the bully & the fear maker & actually gets a lick out of creating that fear & intimidation.

Hitler is a prime example & look at where that got everyone.

[lampini]

Like Luc said - untie their ropes.

 

We had a chap like this around once.. it took a rather "junoesque" flame-haired Scots lass to knock him out - literally - before we finally got rid! He tried the "be nice to the blokes and bully the women" tactic and got away with it for years until she turned up and he tried it on her.. i think she broke his nose!

 

Good luck!

Edited March 13, 2014 by lampini

[Guest]

Boating lass, on 13 Mar 2014 - 01:45 AM, said:

Thanks to everyone for your support & suggestions but I feel the need to point out to Martin, in the dog house, that I never asked or initially suggested any problems with food hygiene or their facilities other than the ones I have recently highlighted.

I have not seen inside either boat other than on photos he has taken & posted on Facebook & have no intention of, as even if these people had the last glass of water on planet earth & only wanted a penny for it they would not get a penny from me as I do not support bullies of any nature.

My point was that there are no beds in the coffee boat bean butty as they like to call it, so where does he sleep in there, floor, seating? It is of no real concern to me I will never eat there, but others do.

Yes I agree there are always two sides to every story but unfortunately myself & the other boats nearby have had to fight tooth & nail to get our side heard & acknowledged through their lies & deceit.

Can I just point out that I & the other boaters involved spend 90% of our time on our boats at these moorings & encounter these people on a daily basis, & I & many other of the females involved have been targeted & intimidated by mr Milson on a regular basis & now he is targeting the more vulnerable, or so he thought until the police got involved yet again!

This couple have been kicked off or seen off of numerous moorings previous to Bramwith, including Rotherham, Doncaster town centre & strawberry island for their anti-social actions & I do not feel that one cup of coffee & a piece of cake for an hour on a sunny weekend afternoon makes time for a good judgment of character.

It's easy to put on a smile & a false character for a short space of time for a customer who's willing to pay an extortionate price for a coffee & a slice of cake you have just bought at sainsburys.

Propaganda whispered initially into willing ears on brief encounters has led many people throughout history to believe false accounts of what really happened for the believers to eventually have their eyes opened wide having spent time with or around the initial whisperer, who has since become the shouter, the bully & the fear maker & actually gets a lick out of creating that fear & intimidation.

Hitler is a prime example & look at where that got everyone.

 

Well I think the comparison with Hitler is a bit extreme but anyway.

 

I am just saying that we have not heard his side of the story that is all - it is entirely possible that each and every word you have written is entirely true but I reserve judgement on completely condemning this guy until I have (but I doubt we will). But remember, what I think is really not that important - because from what you say it sounds as those that need to be on your side are. I don't moor at Barmwith unless I am passing through so his reported actions don't directly impact on me, our boat is moored some distance away, as long as you and your fellow moorers are supporting each other that is good.

 

I also don't recall his prices being particularly extortionate as it happens but that is an aside.

 

Hope you get sorted and if you ever see us passing through shout up.

[Hoose]

Please keep us informed on this situation

[quiet life]

l endorse every thing Boating Lass has said, it is a true account of the events that have taken place at Bramwith lock moorings. It is grossly insulting and disrespectful for the coffee boat owner (Milsom) to say to a retired boater who has moored for many years at the lock , that he would have him if he was not a cripple. Milsom is selective who he bullies and intimiddates. the coffee boat owners (Milsoms) class them selves as the victim, but Ihave to state this is not the case it is totally the opposite, the other moorers are the victim as their lives are made a misery by the Milsoms unreasonable behaviour.Bramwith lock moorings used to be a fantastic place to moor but sadly not any more.

[Boating biker]

Hello Boating Lass,

I am new to this forum, having read this thread I have NO doubt about your account of the way it is!!! The saying 'there's always one' applies here:-( well he pops up all tooooo often on threads (all forums have them!!!) so for that reason I doubt I will post on a regular basis!!!

It is a very sad situation the good people of Bramwith Lock LM's find themselves in, you deserve better support from all, don't let the 'b******* get you down'! I wish you well in dealing with a bully and ineffective officials,

kind regards

Bb ok

[Guest]

Boating biker, on 21 Mar 2014 - 3:20 PM, said:Boating biker, on 21 Mar 2014 - 3:20 PM, said:

Hello Boating Lass,

I am new to this forum, having read this thread I have NO doubt about your account of the way it is!!! The saying 'there's always one' applies here:-( well he pops up all tooooo often on threads (all forums have them!!!) so for that reason I doubt I will post on a regular basis!!!

It is a very sad situation the good people of Bramwith Lock LM's find themselves in, you deserve better support from all, don't let the 'b******* get you down'! I wish you well in dealing with a bully and ineffective officials,

kind regards

Bb ok

 

One presumes that is a reference to my good self?

 

If so you need to carefully re-read what I have posted because I am not saying what has been posted is not correct I am actually saying there could be two sides to the story.

 

Oh and welcome to the forum - nice first post.......If that is going to be your style stick around I'm sure we will have some interesting exchanges.

 

Oh and apologies in advance if you were not having a go at me but rather somebody else.

Edited March 21, 2014 by The Dog House

[luctor et emergo]

Ding ding. Seconds out.

 

First round.